Five-spoke vs solid rims?

elkoskoolie · 04-18-2009, 09:08 AM

The first wheel you mention is called a "Dayton". I don't think they are used on any new vehicles any more. The second solid type is a "BUDD" wheel. It comes in several flavors. Older types are usually 20", and have a split ring to hold the tire on. Due to the ring, these wheels/tires require the use of tubes. This IS NOT the same as a "split rim", which is an antique, unsafe wheel that is 2 pieces bolted together. You can still find 20" tires, but they are getting harder, and have way fewer choices. Locally, I find it's cheaper to upgrade. 22.5 tires cost less, and the difference in tire cost, flap and tube is more than getting a used 22.5 wheel and new tire. And look at the tire date code if buying used. I bet a lot of the 20" used tires out there are really too old to be used.

Newer BUDDs are either 22.5" or 24.5", and are used on pretty much all trucks and buses today. Virtually all take tubeless tires. The final variant is that BUDDs can be stud piloted or hub piloted. Pretty sure stud is most common. The stud pilot lug nuts have a taper on the wheel side that "pilot" or locate the wheel. Hub pilot have a flat nut, and are "piloted" or located by the wheel hub.

10-20 tube type is same as 11-22.5
11-20 tube type is same as 11-24.5
10-22 tube type is same as 11-24.5

11-22.5 is probably the most common truck tire on the road today. 22.5 low profile is becoming more popular.

Date code: Find the large DOT letters. there will be a series of letters and numbers after the DOT. The last 3 or 4 are the date code.
Prior to 2000, 3 numbers are used. first 2 are the week, last is year. 019 is first week of 1999. Sometimes there will be a sideways triangle indicating 1990's. If it's not there, it's possible it's 1980's.
After 2000, 4 numbers are used, first 2 are week, last 2 year so 2307 was made 23rd week of 2007.
Near the DOT code will be a brand (numbers/letters) for each time the casing has been re-capped. Don't put a recap on the steer wheels. Neither safe or legal. (I think there may be some recaps certified for steers, but I've been told they are expensive, and we're not likely to run into them)

paul iossi · 04-18-2009, 08:57 PM

elko, excellent post

one minor correction if i may, hub pilot wheels were developed by kelsey hayes or borg warner and are not budd wheels,
it is necessary to know if your wheels are budd or hub pilot when looking for parts - wheels, studs,nuts it is critical to get the right parts that fit the hubs on you bus, unless you want to experience having one of your tire/wheel assembly you

not a fun time.

elkoskoolie · 04-19-2009, 09:26 AM

Correct me at will!! I'm not an expert, just spend way too much time on line. My last bus had old, rotten 10x22 wheels/tires, so I spent some time figuring out what I needed to upgrade.
One other note, it seems that many of the aluminum wheels out there, in addition to possibly being hub piloted, are thicker than the more common steel wheels, requiring longer wheel studs to be installed. Keep it in mind when you get that killer deal on some fancy wheels!!

frank-id · 04-19-2009, 11:29 AM

Spoke type wheels are used for a variety of reasons. They are not difficult to change tires. They are not dangerous. Some one is confused with the old type wheels that used a split ring to hold tire in place. Spoke wheels are of less cost, easy to service as nut tightening is greatly reduced and a school district can change wheels without any special equipment. The wheels are a good as any and very safe. Hauling lots of kids around has lots of liability. I cannot find any history of wheel failures. I cannot find any aluminium wheels for replacement. hahaha. The outer wheel rim can be changed for larger tire sizes. The brakes also seem to last longer and cooler. The wheels are easy to maintain and bearing replacement is easy. Wheels that are of the lock ring should be replaced with the size wanted/needed. Wheels are cheap and available every place. I'm keeping my spoke wheels and may paint them yellow. Frank
1991 BB on Int with 7.3 & allison

elkoskoolie · 04-19-2009, 12:46 PM

It's almost impossible to get accurate info on split rims. Most people seem to think that the common tube type wheel with a split locking ring is a "split rim", and is deadly. It is not. If your shop won't work on them, they should be educated. "Split rims" are actually 2 or more piece wheels, not a wheel with a locking ring. In the excellent link below, clicking on the paragraph headings will bring up detailed pics. The Dayton wheel has a split RING, as does the BUDD wheel. These are NOT split rims, and are not the deadly decapitators they are made out to be. Look at the "This scan from the 1949 Budd Wheel catalog" link under "Split rim wheels". THESE are the killer split rims. I really doubt that any of our buses are old enough to have these. Here's the link:

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/wheels/

The reason to upgrade from a tube type or Dayton rim should only be a question of ease of finding a replacement at a reasonable cost and time, esp when in the boonies. This is really a function of tire size -all those big rigs on the road have mostly 22.5 BUDD rims, and either 11R22.5 or 22.5 low profile tires. They're everywhere! A lesser reason is availability of a replacement rim. Since I needed 6 tires, it was a lot cheaper to just get used 24.5 wheels and get a more modern tire size (try to find a set of 10-22 tires!!). Not as common as 22.5 wheels/tires, but the correct replacement size for what I had. So I saved, and will avoid future headaches.

silentbob · 04-19-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul iossi

elko, excellent post

one minor correction if i may, hub pilot wheels were developed by kelsey hayes or borg warner and are not budd wheels,
it is necessary to know if your wheels are budd or hub pilot when looking for parts - wheels, studs,nuts it is critical to get the right parts that fit the hubs on you bus, unless you want to experience having one of your tire/wheel assembly you

not a fun time.

Well Dayton and Budd were not the sole manufacturers of demountable or disc type wheels but the names have stuck. A Budd wheel by any manufacturer typically refers to a disc type wheel that can be stud piloted or hub piloted. A Dayton wheel refers to a demountable rim with spokes on the hub.

swinada · 04-20-2009, 01:49 PM

Now, where would you get those shiny hubcaps and nuts like in this picture?

frank-id · 04-20-2009, 03:31 PM

My spokes are aluminum color. The blue wheel can be power coated with some chrome work. I like the slip on chrome nuts that are cheap and available every place trucks go. Paint and chrome do wonders for black and rusty. Frank

sportyrick · 04-20-2009, 11:28 PM

Well here's my 2 cents. I had to put 2 new tires on the front of my bus to get it home because I couldn't get any tire guys to tell me if mine were any good or not, they didn't want the RESPONSABILITY . I bought the bus off Ebay and Joan and I were going to fly out to Salt Lake City and drive it home so I told them to put steer tires on it, toss the extras in the back and I could get along with whatever was on the rear. That's my first pair new tires. I was looking around on Govdeals.com and found the city getting rid of a few tires that weren't of use any more-----20's, 4 of them and 2 were brand new 1100-20 Goodyears----did I say I JUMPED on that deal and got them all for $178!!!!! I still have one 10.00R-20 bar style fresh retread that I need to move if anybody needs it. Come to think of it I have a brand new Goodyear 9.00-20 bias ply I need to move too, anyone need a tire or 2? I will put my cell # at the end of this note and you can call me and I will UPS them to you if you need them, we can talk about price on the phone. I needed a uhaul ramp to load the bikes in the bus, found one at a now dying truck yard in Wellsville KS (DNR is shutting them down) and while looking at the piles of alloy wheels laying around mentioned that I wish they made alloy splits and he said they do and I have some, REALLY!!! So I went back to Dorthy's land when I had some more cash and bought 4 of them but they needed a lot of polishing. If you look at my bus you will see 20" alloy wheels, SPLIT alloy wheels so if you need alloy's and you have good 20 inch tires you might be able to scrape up a set if you ask lots of questions at lots of junk yards. And yes they are thicker than the steel ones but my studs worked because I run the thinner steel wheels on the inside. While I was crawling under the bus last year checking out my deteriorating rear brake shoes I noticed a large sidewall crack in one of the old tires that came off the front of the bus when they put on the new ones in SLC. So I replaced the 2 inside duals last year, 6 new tires all together now, everyone knows what that is worth, both in cost and not having to worry about tires ever again because by the time those suckers wear out I will be long gone. By the way govdeals.com always has tires on there for sale, as well as buses, trucks, cars, machinery, dozers, and anything else you can think of so look around on there and see what you need to buy to further fill up your life. sportyrick 573 424 2051

Geo Jeff · 10-05-2016, 12:31 AM

Can you put the 24" in place of the 22" I was wondering if that would give you a taller final gear ratio.

cadillackid · 10-05-2016, 07:36 AM

that was an old thread... if you need just a little more ratio on the rear.. you may be able to go to a taller tire..

on my bus with the dayton 5 spoke, I had 10R22.5 tires on it and went to 11R22.5 tires... it increased my bus max speed from 64-68 or 69 so a decent increase...

-Christopher

Geo Jeff · 10-05-2016, 02:19 PM

I'm not even sure where I am on gears or speed yet i just drove i a few miles and jumped on the freeway for about two miles. got to 60 and it was the off ramp and i saw 2300rpm. I'm planning on cruise control and 50 mph and short runs that are 100 to 200 miles at the most. My rear tires look like new there re caps and my fronts are warn out. I'm probably just buying aluminum wheels and new front tires. Hoping there is a spare tire mount under there on this Genesis so I don't have to make one. I assume the district was planning on calling a truck out so no need to install it?

cadillackid · 10-05-2016, 05:00 PM

yeah typically school busses didnt carry spares for the reason you stated, the bus was never very far from home.. so it was easier to keep a few spare rims and tires in the shop and send a truck out to replace the rim and tire on-the-spot and get the bus on the road..
-Christopher

Tango · 10-05-2016, 05:42 PM

A lot of folks with dually rear axles feel like they already have a couple of emergency spares to swap out since you can operate most rigs just fine with a single for long enough to get to a repair or tire shop.

Me...mmmm...I like having a spare spare so I tucked one underneath the rearend.

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