Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-15-2015, 07:57 AM   #1
Bus Nut
 
austin1989us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 313
Year: 1988
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC/2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9TA
Fuel Economy

So, in case you didn't read my intro thread, I'm shopping for a bus. I think I found a good Oklahoma bus and am thinking of taking a look at it next week when I'm up there. The problem is that it runs on gasoline.

I'm trying to do a quick break-even analysis and wanted to run some numbers by yall to see if I'm on track.

I'm assuming that a 6 window diesel bus (GVWR under 26k) will probably get around 12 mpg. The same bus with a gas engine I'm assuming will get 8 mpg. I'm also assuming a gas cost of $2.50/gal and a diesel cost of $3/gal. I think I'll probably put around 2,500 miles on the bus per year.

That equates to the gas bus costing ~$150 more per year in fuel. I assume that after parts and maintenance the gas bus will cost about as much as the diesel (maybe less).

Am I out of line with my assumptions? Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,


-Austin


PS: I'm a newbie, so I don't think it'll be easy to post a link. But take a look at the 1989 Chevy bus for $2,500 on the Oklahoma City Craigslist page. It looks like it's built on a medium duty truck chassis. I'm not talking about a van-bus here.

austin1989us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 08:09 AM   #2
Bus Geek
 
Tango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 8,462
Year: 1946
Coachwork: Chevrolet/Wayne
Chassis: 1- 1/2 ton
Engine: Cummins 4BT
Rated Cap: 15
Don't have any specific stats to offer but can assure you that given reasonable maintenance, the diesel will prove to be much more cost effective than that. Most of the v-8 gas buses I have seen were doing well to get 4-6 mpg and required much, much more in maintenance costs over time. A properly tuned diesel (most likely a 6 cylinder in that sized bus) can get around 14 unless lead footed. I have "heard of" a number of similar rigs put together by mpg fanatics that can get about 20 with the right gearing and tires.

Bottom Line: If the economic benefits weren't real and compelling, most commercial OTR operators would be driving gasoline rigs instead of diesel.

My two cents.
Tango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 08:56 AM   #3
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
My 1985 Thomas/Ford got about 3 or 4 mpg. On the highway even.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 09:43 AM   #4
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winlcok, WA
Posts: 2,233
I have had a lot of experience going thousands of miles in buses over the last forty years.

I know that fuel mileage numbers vary with experience but I think you are way over optimistic on fuel mileage expectations. The spread between gas and diesel in a medium duty will be about the same but you need to revise both down about 2 MPG.

I have seen some Blue Bird TC2000 buses with the 5.9L and AT540 that got 10-11 MPG. But those were relatively light buses running on relatively flat routes going less than 35 MPH. On trips they would actually use more fuel per mile--frontal area and speed eat up a lot of fuel.

The best fuel mileage we ever experienced with a gas powered bus was a 1979 IHC S-Series with the MV404 and 5-speed direct with a 12-row Carpenter body. On trips it consistently got 7.5 MPG. It was geared to a top speed of 67 MPH and would cruise easily at 55-60 MPH. The same bus with an automatic got 5.5 MPG doing the same stuff. The same basic bus with an MV446 got 4 MPG doing the same stuff.

Most DT466 equipped buses with a top speed of 57 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

Most 5.9L equipped buses with a top speed of 70 MPH got 8-9 MPG.

Most Cat 3208(T) equipped buses with a top speed of 70 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

Most 6.9/7.3/T444(E) equipped buses with a top speed of 65 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

As with everything else, your results might be different.
cowlitzcoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 10:03 AM   #5
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 546
Right on, all drivers are different regarding fuel mileage.

On a trip I drove my brother's PU after he got tired and got 1/3 better MPG, slower speed though.

Our 5.9 powered TC1000 is at 11.5 right now avg. I am a very conservative driver and cruise at 55. Most miles have been towing 4500 lbs. with very little long hwy. runs. Our TC weighs just under 20K.
I have a Scan gauge D and watching the current mpg really helps make you aware.
dond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 10:21 AM   #6
Bus Nut
 
austin1989us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Tomball, TX
Posts: 313
Year: 1988
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC/2000
Engine: Cummins 5.9TA
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'll pass on the gas bus. Using the assumed fuel prices and Tango's estimates I got about $1,000 more expensive per 2,500 miles driven with the gas bus. Using Cowlitz's more optimistic numbers it was more like $400. I'd venture to guess that the real number is somewhere between the two.

I'll keep looking.
austin1989us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 02:43 PM   #7
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Posts: 1,791
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: B3800 Short bus
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowlitzcoach View Post
I have had a lot of experience going thousands of miles in buses over the last forty years.

I know that fuel mileage numbers vary with experience but I think you are way over optimistic on fuel mileage expectations. The spread between gas and diesel in a medium duty will be about the same but you need to revise both down about 2 MPG.

I have seen some Blue Bird TC2000 buses with the 5.9L and AT540 that got 10-11 MPG. But those were relatively light buses running on relatively flat routes going less than 35 MPH. On trips they would actually use more fuel per mile--frontal area and speed eat up a lot of fuel.

The best fuel mileage we ever experienced with a gas powered bus was a 1979 IHC S-Series with the MV404 and 5-speed direct with a 12-row Carpenter body. On trips it consistently got 7.5 MPG. It was geared to a top speed of 67 MPH and would cruise easily at 55-60 MPH. The same bus with an automatic got 5.5 MPG doing the same stuff. The same basic bus with an MV446 got 4 MPG doing the same stuff.

Most DT466 equipped buses with a top speed of 57 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

Most 5.9L equipped buses with a top speed of 70 MPH got 8-9 MPG.

Most Cat 3208(T) equipped buses with a top speed of 70 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

Most 6.9/7.3/T444(E) equipped buses with a top speed of 65 MPH got 7-8 MPG.

As with everything else, your results might be different.

Do you have estimated numbers for the DTA360, Cowlitz? I know a guy around here absolutely loves them. Underpowered, but supposedly they sip on the fuel likes its a 20 year Scotch.. savouring every drop
__________________
My build page: Armageddon - The Smell of Airborne Rust
jazty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2015, 07:39 PM   #8
Moderator
 
crazycal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NUNYA
Posts: 4,236
Year: 1995
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: 3800
Engine: DT408, AT545
Rated Cap: 23 500 gvw
Your gas bus will get a solid 8-9 MPG...if you leave the engine off and push it off of a cliff. LOL. Sorry, couldn't help myself. I think the message is clear that a diesel will give you much better fuel mileage. There are so many buses out there with good engines, why compromise only to get bled dry every time you take a trip.
__________________
I'm hungry!

You Gotta Let Me Fly
crazycal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 06:09 AM   #9
Site Team
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: southwest lowsyana
Posts: 542
Year: 1988
Coachwork: ward
Chassis: international
Engine: dt360a
Rated Cap: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazty View Post
Do you have estimated numbers for the DTA360, Cowlitz? I know a guy around here absolutely loves them. Underpowered, but supposedly they sip on the fuel likes its a 20 year Scotch.. savouring every drop
i have that engine. got 13mpg from south louisiana to northeast oklahoma. at545 and 478 gears in 66 passenger IH bus.
claydbal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 10:47 AM   #10
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winlcok, WA
Posts: 2,233
I have no personal experience with the DT(A)360.

What I have been told is it performs pretty much like the Cummins 5.9L.

I would guess it would be in the 9-12 MPG range depending on load, speed, and terrain.
cowlitzcoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 04:45 PM   #11
Bus Nut
 
Jolly Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North carolina
Posts: 651
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Ford
Engine: Detroit 8.2
Rated Cap: 60 bodies
I have a DT 8.2 an AT 545 with an eaton rear with 6.50 gear's I have a lot of advice on how to get above 49 mph but no one will help with gear sizing and it is cheaper for me to buy the rear with the gear that I need! I have heard anything from 3/7 to 4/11?
86 ford Wayne full size. I have heard everything from start over to rip out motor to change tranny and I have been to eaton for the rear? Will anyone recommend a gear to change my rear to? Also even from eaton no one will talk to me about what rear is compatabile? The men 5-state's over will make recomendation's but won't finalize unless I bring the bus to them to evaluate? Hell all I want to do is go to texas from n.c. One time!!! just not at 49 mph? Any ideas or contacts!!!
Jolly Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2015, 04:56 PM   #12
Bus Nut
 
Jolly Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North carolina
Posts: 651
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Ford
Engine: Detroit 8.2
Rated Cap: 60 bodies
Quote:
Originally Posted by austin1989us View Post
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'll pass on the gas bus. Using the assumed fuel prices and Tango's estimates I got about $1,000 more expensive per 2,500 miles driven with the gas bus. Using Cowlitz's more optimistic numbers it was more like $400. I'd venture to guess that the real number is somewhere between the two.

I'll keep looking.
I am from Kilgore,tx and played marine and the first bus I really wanted , really wanted was a chevy gasser with a 10- speed tranny and didn't get
Cause of gas price and the wife can drive stick but 10 of them was a NO after she pushed the pedal! Dang it ! I loved everything about it and could work on every part now I have one that is teaching me more than I am it
Jolly Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 12:23 AM   #13
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
I have a DT 8.2 an AT 545 with an eaton rear with 6.50 gear's I have a lot of advice on how to get above 49 mph but no one will help with gear sizing and it is cheaper for me to buy the rear with the gear that I need! I have heard anything from 3/7 to 4/11?
86 ford Wayne full size. I have heard everything from start over to rip out motor to change tranny and I have been to eaton for the rear? Will anyone recommend a gear to change my rear to? Also even from eaton no one will talk to me about what rear is compatabile? The men 5-state's over will make recomendation's but won't finalize unless I bring the bus to them to evaluate? Hell all I want to do is go to texas from n.c. One time!!! just not at 49 mph? Any ideas or contacts!!!
Is that the DT530?

If so, I would chose anything 4.44 and up. So 4.44 would be good for hills and mountains, but the 3.54 will be better for flat ground.

Its too bad you have that AT545. That engine is soooo under tuned because of it. If it was a standard transmission, I would go 3.54 and turn the engine way up.

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 08:36 AM   #14
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Adirondack Mountains NY
Posts: 1,101
The total cost calculation depends also on the purchase price, and how much you drive. If you are going across the country, there is no question that a diesel will have a lower total cost. If you only make two round trips per year to the lake that is 100 miles away, the fuel used driving 400 miles per year may not offset other costs. It may not pay to ignore a less desirable (and therefore cheaper?) gasser for limited driving.

We used to have a 1993 DT360 box truck with a 5-speed stick at work. I'm sorry I don't remember the fuel mileage, as I wasn't paying for the fuel.

The truck required patience to drive. At full throttle, it would merge into the Interstate driving lane at 35 MPH, coming out of a tight corner onto an uphill ramp. It took about 3 to 5 minutes to top out at 64 MPH on the level. In heavy traffic, you had to look about a mile down the interstate, and change lanes before you hit a slow-down, because if you took off speed it was going to take a long time to get it back.

That being said, it would not be a bad engine for relaxed exploration of 2-lane highways through rural America, but it is not a good choice for express cruising across endless prairie on an Interstate.

"You pays your money and you makes your choice."
__________________
Someone said "Making good decisions comes from experience, experience comes from bad decisions." I say there are three kinds of people: those who learn from their mistakes, those who learn from the mistakes of others, and those who never learn.
Redbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 11:49 AM   #15
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maryland / Boulder
Posts: 347
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas Built
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner MVP ER
Engine: CAT 3126b Rotella-Chugger
Rated Cap: 72
I have gotten 8-9 mpg on my bus, a 34' Thomas pusher, 21,000 lbs curb weight, with a Diesel CAT 3126 and Allison 5 speed. This is before I enabled the 6th gear which dropped engine speed at 65 by about 300 rpm. I haven't driven it enough with that having been done to get a measurement on fuel consumption after the trans reflash. The 8-9 mpg figure is with me doing 65 mph, pedal to the floor the entire time I am accelerating and cruising.

My last job we had 2010-2014 Chevy Express 3500-based 17' box trucks (dually) with a curb weight of 9500 when empty and max gvw of 12,700. Probably a less than a bus on the same chassis would weigh. We did pickups in DC, city traffic but were also on 95 a lot. They had chevy 6.0 V8s and 6 speed autos, and with 20-something males driving them they got 7-8 mpg consistently. Highway or city didn't seem to make much of a difference as they were constantly gear hunting on the highway and downshifting to 4th on a 1% grade due to the massively terrible aero of those trucks.

So figure a pretty new engine design (old school pushrod v8 but whatever) and a good 6 speed trans and geared for hwy use, which is like mechanically a best case scenario. Even then, it only got 7-8 mpg. I would figure a bus you're buying with a gas engine would be older and have a 4 speed and a chevy 350 or big block V8 that runs less efficiently and may have shorter gearing.

I'd skip out on the gasser, just my opinion.
porkchopsandwiches is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2015, 10:20 PM   #16
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winlcok, WA
Posts: 2,233
The new GM 6.0L gas V-8's with 4L80 transmissions in the cut-away buses are turning into some fairly fuel efficient power packages.

My customers report they regularly get 10-12 MPG with them.

That is from daily school routes, daily shuttle routes in town, and dairly service routes going between towns.

If I was going to get a small Type 'A' school bus or light duty commercial bus on a cut-away chassis I would chose the GM chassis with the 6.0L before I would look at any Ford chassis and I would not chose a diesel in the light duty chassis.
cowlitzcoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2015, 03:22 AM   #17
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 67
Year: 97
Coachwork: Moi
Chassis: International
Engine: 444e...7.3L
Rated Cap: 36
I got a triple 4/ 7.3l and i get 9.5 miles a gallon doing a max speed of 50mph. In metric thats 25l per 100 klicks doing 80 kph
rock649 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 12:39 PM   #18
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Stony Plain Alberta Canada
Posts: 2,937
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: TC2000 FE
Engine: 190hp 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 72
We all hate metric.

A friend calls the metric side of a tape measure the french side. Lol

Nat
__________________
"Don't argue with stupid people. They will just drag you down to their level, and beat you up with experience."

Patently waiting for the apocalypses to level the playing field in this physiological game of life commonly known as Civilization
nat_ster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 01:30 PM   #19
Bus Crazy
 
Scooternj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: EHT New Jersey
Posts: 1,134
Year: 2003
Coachwork: AmTran
Chassis: International 3000RE
Engine: T444E/AT545
Rated Cap: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock649 View Post
I got a triple 4/ 7.3l and i get 9.5 miles a gallon doing a max speed of 50mph. In metric thats 25l per 100 klicks doing 80 kph
Odd. I've the same engine, and got about 10mpg with at 60-65; including about 45 minutes of creep on the Cross-Bronx in NYC at rush hour. And my Amtran's a huge brick (3000RE) with the aerodynamics of a strip mall
__________________
Hey! That's not an RV, that's a school bus.
Well thank you for noticing, Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious on deviantArt
Scooternj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 01:32 PM   #20
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario
Posts: 1,791
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: B3800 Short bus
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat_ster View Post
We all hate metric.

A friend calls the metric side of a tape measure the french side. Lol

Nat
Not me! I'd prefer the world be SI (metric) over the arbitrary measurements of the imperial system and the US system.. Making everything base 10 is much easier for conversions. The problem is that only 90% of the world has adopted it and us North Americans live in that weird 10%. We still have some industries holding out on the metric system even in Canada. Lumber, steel, etc are still measured in inches and feet. Grocery stores typically measure in both systems.

Formula to convert 2834 milligrams to grams (milli = 1/1000, or 0.001):
2834 milligrams / 1000 = 2.834 grams
OR
2834 milligrams * 0.001 = 2.834 grams

Formula to convert 2834 centimeters to meters (centi = 1/100, or 0.01):
2834 centimeters / 100 = 28.34 meters
OR
2834 centimeters * 0.01 = 28.34 meters

Formula to convert 2834 pounds to tons:
2834 pounds * 0.0005 = 1.417 tons

Formula to convert 2834 US fl. ounces to US gallons:
2834 fl. ounces * 0.0078125 = 22.14063 US gallons

Which ones can easily be done in the ol' noggin? Once you know the order of milli, centi, deci, deca, hecto, kilo, mega, giga, tera you're good to go. All base 10.
Most of you probably already know kilo, mega, giga, tera from the computer world.. Thats half way there!

Edit: Obligatory Oatmeal comic (he's American, btw )

http://theoatmeal.com/pl/senior_year/science
__________________
My build page: Armageddon - The Smell of Airborne Rust
jazty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.