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03-21-2019, 01:49 PM
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#1001
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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Thanks for replying guys! Had no clue of the replies. For some reason, I don't get email notifications sometimes. Kinda hit or miss
Hey Elliot, you think you could show step by step in a video this time around? Are you gonna have to build the guide-assemblies again. Im grateful for your thread and all the images but would love footage to be more sure since I pretty much plan to copy your raise method
Thanks again
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03-24-2019, 06:10 PM
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#1002
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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Or at least make a vid on how to put together the lifting mechanism?
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03-24-2019, 11:52 PM
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#1003
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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Thanks for the kind words!
I am capable of taking decent photos (as opposed to the crude snapshots I usually post here), but everything takes time -- much time, in my case.
I can see it now... me tying a whole thrift-store's worth of white bed-sheets between trees as scrims. LOL
Video? Seems to me, that would require a skilled photographer working the same hours as I would be working on the project.
(I know a lady who does that sort of thing full time, but I sure cannot afford her! LOL )
And footage is only the beginning -- then comes editing.
Powerful computer, fancy software, lots of learning.
Hey... I'm already 67 and hearing every minute ticking out the window for good. Not sure I want to start a new, expensive, and time-consuming hobby.
At that event in the desert... we have a form of government called Do-ocracy. You want something done, you put your tail in gear and DO it. I will let you know when to bring your truckload of movie studio gear, and the crew, over.
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03-25-2019, 12:52 AM
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#1004
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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Let's see if this is helpful.
I gathered 12 photos that show the basics of the lifting system.
Four farm jacks. These are simply heavy duty bumper jacks.
The black piece is the “ladder” that the moving parts climb.
The red parts climb upward, except for the foot which is attached to the “ladder” and ought to be a different color for this purpose.
Oh... and the red plate at the top of the "ladder", which comes with the jack but I did not use.
(I don't know what it is normally used for.)
The basic parts of the guide assemblies – the guide tube and the ram.
The guide tube goes here, with nuts on the outside of the body.
(The bolt is inserted thru the large hole, so it does not obstruct the tube.
Only the head of the bolt is in there, which made no difference. This is not a watch.)
The cut will be made where the arrow points.
There is a lot going on here, so take a moment.
The green bracket simply keeps the jack from tipping over.
The white is the guide tube that is bolted to the lower half of the bus.
The jack (red) lifts the (unpainted) ram.
Note the yellow "ear" on top of the ram. It bolts to the roof.
The little “ear” on top of the ram – color coded yellow -- will fasten to these factory bolts.
Installed, ready to begin lifting.
I pumped the two rear jacks, and a buddy did the same at the front.
Now the inserts – although I actually fabricated them ahead of time.
I used three commonly available materials to fill the hat-section snugly.
A bit of cross bracing seemed a good idea.
Questions?
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03-26-2019, 01:01 PM
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#1005
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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Thanks alot! This is greatly appreciated. Your system is pretty straight forward actually. I guess I'm just cautious about the whole operation. My biggest concern is cutting the bus in the right places. Cutting through the pillars should be easy but when it comes to the back and front, especially the front, I'm lost.
Did the front inside of your bus have anything like this (see images) getting in the way of your cut? It seems connected to the part i wanna raise and at the same time welded to the part that can't be raised because of being attached to right above the windshield where the rivets are. Hard to explain but I'm hoping the images help maybe those pieces are just there to manage wire?
Also, I see that other people cut mid section through the pillars. Any particular reason you went higher?
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03-26-2019, 01:30 PM
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#1006
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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My two cents... I think (and used) the threaded rod method.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/lefgbSdaH4CoTPir2
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03-26-2019, 02:39 PM
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#1007
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
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So the rivets are removed so the sheet metal be riveted into place? Has nothing to do with being able to raise the roof?
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03-26-2019, 03:29 PM
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#1008
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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I do not remember Millicent having those vertical pieces in her "forehead", but it looks like they are there to support the inner panel. They are not attached well enough at the top to be structural. And notice the screw holes. My guess is they keep the inner panel from flexing in and out and making noise (like a giant speaker cone, or a drum skin, or a gong). I can almost "hear" a booming sort'a noise.
I do not remember exactly why I did... many things. This was in 2006-2007!
But there are definitely things I would do differently now.
Absolutely... all-thread is a perfectly good "jack" for this purpose. My humongous farm jacks were overkill, to put it mildly.
I have photos of where I made the cuts in the front. They should still be on this thread, but Photobucket may have discarded them by now. I am kind'a pressed for time today, but will post them anew as soon as I can squeeze it in.
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03-26-2019, 05:22 PM
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#1009
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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That would be great! Thanks
Yea those pieces are definitely not for structural purposes. The opposite side of the sides with the screw holes aren't even attached. Has a gap. Like you said, it's for the panel, plus a little wire management. Same thing in the back of the bus
Looking at the bus again right now and think i know where to make the cuts now. Not so sure about the back. Don't know if I should cut below the window like you did or above. You put that big garage door on yours so you didnt have to deal with the small door and the mechanism at the top. Gonna go through your thread and look at some pics of the back of your bus. Can you look at this image and tell me where you would cut?
Thanks
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03-26-2019, 05:24 PM
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#1010
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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@Brewerbob thanks for sharing the photos. Gives me a better idea of where to cut in the difficult areas like the door and drivers window
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03-27-2019, 12:42 AM
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#1011
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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I cut the “forehead” above the rivets for two reasons:
I expected there would be a sealant between the two panels and it would be struggle to pry them apart.
And, using brute force in that area might crack the windshields, and/or deform the window channel enough to cause a water leak and/or difficulty replacing the glass.
To make a neat cut with the angle grinder, I placed a scrap of square steel tubing in the rain gutter and rested the grinder's guard on that as I slid it along.
Then I went back and removed the rivets to make a smooth surface for the new skin. And then I marked the new skin thru those holes from the inside, drilled the skin on those marks, and installed the new skin with 1/4 inch pop rivets thru the original rivet holes.
Oh.... Important: Always cover all glass very well before drilling, grinding, welding, or otherwise causing sparks or chips within two kilomiles of any glass. Hot metal WILL embed itself in the glass, and there it will remain. (Chorus: "Ask me how I know.")
This shows more of the front cut – though I hogged out a taller door opening later.
This is at the rear, and may or may not be helpful.
The basic concept I use when deciding where to cut – deciding anything of this nature – is to look at it long and hard from all angles, then try to fire up at least one or two sparkplugs in my brain.
One of those sparkplugs is… “What can go wrong here?” (as in the risk to the windshield frame).
Keep in mind… we are not building a watch here. At some point we have to tear into it, and make an occasional correction if needed, lest we never get started.
By the way, when Millicent’s roof resumes “making its way up in the World”, I will be in the market for a new rear cap. I could use the inside cap panel also – actually a couple of them as room dividers.
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03-27-2019, 06:51 AM
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#1012
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27
So the rivets are removed so the sheet metal be riveted into place? Has nothing to do with being able to raise the roof?
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Along the sides, yes? Gotta tuck the metal under and over something at the top and bottom tho. On the front, they have to come out or cut a straight line above the rivets and then patch it back together somehow. Someone here (I think) did it that way.
Your bus must be newer/different make. I don't have anything like that in my bus.
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03-27-2019, 07:20 AM
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#1013
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Naess
But there are definitely things I would do differently now.
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My favorite inside joke is "The next bus will be easier. First time I told the gf that, she damn near had a heat attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Naess
I cut the “forehead” above the rivets for two reasons:
I expected there would be a sealant between the two panels and it would be struggle to pry them apart.
And, using brute force in that area might crack the windshields, and/or deform the window channel enough to cause a water leak and/or difficulty replacing the glass.
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adic27,
Well, there you go. It was this guy that did the straight cut!!
Elliot,
There was tar on mine as a sealant. Heat gun got some of it. Grinder on the back side of the rivets didn't seem to care too much. No sealant. To be honest, I was a little worries it wouldn't want to come apart without a lot of effort from a putty knife or something. But, it popped apart all by itself when all the rivets were out. I had a 1/4" gap before even trying to raise the roof.
Side note, all the bonding stuff seemed to be between the sides and the hat channels. I have red and green bonding. The tar is the only thing at the front and rear caps.
Quote:
Oh.... Important: Always cover all glass very well before drilling, grinding, welding, or otherwise causing sparks or chips within two kilomiles of any glass. Hot metal WILL embed itself in the glass, and there it will remain. (Chorus: "Ask me how I know.")
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This should include mirrors as well especially when trying to place 10 foot strips of sheet metal up by yourself in high winds. (Chorus: "Ask me how I know.")
Elliot,
I don't remember from your original build,... what did you do for the rivet line around the side?
adic27,
Following the curve of the rain gutter kicked my butt. I was trying to tuck the sheet metal under the top while keeping the bottom in the rain gutter. The piece was too wide. The only reason for that was so I could mark it and cut it down accurately. I finally gave up. Slapped the metal up on the outside of everything, sitting in the rain gutter. Marked it and cut it down to that. It fit just fine the first try tucked properly. I wasted a good 4 months of build time on that. I was afraid the marks wouldn't transfer right and I"d end up with a gap somewhere. It's still a little long but I can trim it down from the inside without removing it.
As he said, it's not a watch. Just had to hope for the best with the marking and cut it.
Quote:
By the way, when Millicent’s roof resumes “making its way up in the World”, I will be in the market for a new rear cap. I could use the inside cap panel also – actually a couple of them as room dividers.
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You're on the wrong coast else you could have mine. I might yet keep the front one but the rear I won't likely keep. I did cut a corner off the rear when something pissed me off and left it hanging. One last rivet I missed or something like that.
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03-27-2019, 07:25 AM
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#1014
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adic27
@Brewerbob thanks for sharing the photos. Gives me a better idea of where to cut in the difficult areas like the door and drivers window
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Do NOT cut the hat channels in the curve at the door. I had/have to keep my door in the bus because RV lot. That said, I still should have cut below the curve and supported the door header some other way in the meantime.
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03-27-2019, 07:36 AM
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#1015
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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What did I do for the rivet line around the side?
Well, the time is 5:25 a.m., and maybe I ought to catch a couple Zs before I try to figure out what exactly you mean. lol
Could you somehow point to it for me?
Or is this it?:
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04-09-2019, 04:20 PM
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#1016
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 570
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Amtran
Chassis: International
Engine: dt466e
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Thanks for posting the images and the detailed explanation. This will help tremendously. Gotta get some farm jacks and figure out how to put everything together, measurements etc. Have to take another look at pics for that as well
Thanks again!
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04-09-2019, 04:50 PM
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#1017
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
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How did you attach the tops of the skin to the bus? Once my windows are out there's nothing to attach to at the top other than the 2 rivets in the top of the window separator if it's still there.
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04-10-2019, 03:57 PM
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#1018
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearlake, Northern California
Posts: 2,505
Year: 1992
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: TC-2000 Frt Eng, Tranny:MT643
Engine: 5,9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 84
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I slipped the new skin under the eyebrows, but not by very much. In fact, I used those two rivets you mention and no more. This has rattled ever since.
What I ought to have done…
…is remove more rivets and overlap and secure the new skin properly.
Reckon it must have been late in the days and I must have been tired when I made this poor decision.
Edit to add new photo:
"Doing it wrong."
__________________
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04-11-2019, 09:39 AM
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#1019
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Naess
I slipped the new skin under the eyebrows, but not by very much. In fact, I used those two rivets you mention and no more. This has rattled ever since.
What I ought to have done…
…is remove more rivets and overlap and secure the new skin properly.
Reckon it must have been late in the days and I must have been tired when I made this poor decision.
Edit to add new photo:
"Doing it wrong."
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Sorry for your rattle. I've already drilled most of one side so definitely don't want to move those sheets but I still have the entire driver's side. I removed the bottom row of rivets at the eyebrows. You think that will be enough? I really REALLY don't want to go back to trying to move sheets around but I do have the overlap for it. Right now they are sitting on the bottom row of rivets in the rub rail. Those rub rails are better than 4 inches wide.
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04-11-2019, 09:55 AM
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#1020
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 6,401
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
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I followed Elliot's example and I had the same rattling so, from the inside, I tack welded along the top in 4places in each window opening.
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