Insulation for Northern Winters

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by lornaschinske

I suggest that you substitute the wood around your windows with a non-rotting plastic "wood". The metal frames of all windows, single or dual pane, will create a thermal bridge and create the potential for condensation. While my single pane original bus windows do not normally sweat during cooking and normal living (I also am currently living in a dry dessert), taking a nice hot steamy shower is another matter. You need exhaust vents for that. So far the best vent I have found is a Vent-line Thru-the-wall style. I use it for my "range hood" vent over the range. Unfortunately it sucks all my nice warm heater air out in the winter... and all my nice cooled air out in the summer. Once I get the windows trimmed out (with one of the plastic wood trims), I will add a removable interior "storm" panel which will be a single sheet of clear plexiglass that will fit into the window trim creating a double pane effect with "dead air" as the insulator. I want to be able to remove the panel during nice weather and open my windows since I don't care for being in a shut up house.

Insulation will be added under the floor once I get to FL and get settled into a mobile home park (yes, mobile home not RV... cheaper to rent a site in a mobile home park, especially in FL, since I won't need the RV park amenties...except wifi and I can get that from the local cable company). Right now I only have the fiberglass batt insulation David stuffed under the floor last winter. It was a temp solution and he had planned on removing it before we were to leave out.

If I find I need more roof insulation later, I would use the same method George Myers used. A synopsis of his method is here and I would buy the notes he sells to get more details on how he did it. While his bus is a highway coach, the frames are similar. With a few modifications, I believe it would work for me.

Living in cold weather conditions is a pain. You need to make sure all your waterlines have been heat-taped and insulated (you need to be able to replace heat tapes since they do wear out and fail). I also have part of my drains heat taped as well since the valves can and will freeze up. I heat taped my "p" trap under the shower too (it's under the bus floor). I have discovered that pumping all my water from my holding tank is a plus. I have not had that freeze up and temps have been down to 4F overnight. David was from MI and he told me temps regularly got colder than than. I'm cold enough here. This is my last cold, snowy winter. I know my bus will survive the freezing cold winters and convection oven summers of NM. But I prefer a more temperate climate. "Surviving" is not comfortable. Das Mel & I head towards FL in Sept.

Any part of FL in particular?

[lornaschinske]

Panhandle, probably Pensacola area. Unless we win the lottery, we will have to get jobs. If we stay with the companies we each currently work at, we can take a leave of absence and then transfer into another store in our new location.

[EastCoastCB]

Well if yall ever get to central fl, give us a shout.
We have some property near the orlando area if you ever need somewhere to "camp" for a week or so. Cow pasture. Bus friendly.

[ii_amnt]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Closed end rivets and sealer are what I'm going with.

Do you have an air hammer? Trying to figure out my options with the tools at my disposal. I don't want to have to be bringing out the wife over and over to help rivet all over the bus, thus the pop rivets. I don't mind hammering out by hand, but is there a way to do rivets with only one person?

Originally Posted by lornaschinske

Living in cold weather conditions is a pain. You need to make sure all your waterlines have been heat-taped and insulated (you need to be able to replace heat tapes since they do wear out and fail). I also have part of my drains heat taped as well since the valves can and will freeze up. I heat taped my "p" trap under the shower too (it's under the bus floor). I have discovered that pumping all my water from my holding tank is a plus. I have not had that freeze up and temps have been down to 4F overnight. David was from MI and he told me temps regularly got colder than than. I'm cold enough here. This is my last cold, snowy winter. I know my bus will survive the freezing cold winters and convection oven summers of NM. But I prefer a more temperate climate. "Surviving" is not comfortable. Das Mel & I head towards FL in Sept.

I will be keeping as much plumbing and freshwater tanks on the inside of the insulated area as possible to avoid lines freezing over. We are going for two wood stoves on the bus, probably getting new stoves from fourdog.com, the "two dog" for the bedroom and the "four dog" for the kitchen/living room area. Have also looked at the ammocanstove.com stoves instead, for bedroom heating throughout the night. I can see using a plastic instead to frame in the inner "storm" windows. Not sure what to look for or where to buy them from, but I see what your saying.

[charles_m]

With a rivet gun, you can rivet yourself!
I used the cheapo unit from Harbor Freight and had good results once I learned the tool's 'personality' haha.
Probably did 700 rivets when all was said and done and the gun does all the work. Of course you have to use rivets with an arbor in the center, which is a different look than the ones that require bucking (dont know what they're called).

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by ii_amnt

Do you have an air hammer? Trying to figure out my options with the tools at my disposal. I don't want to have to be bringing out the wife over and over to help rivet all over the bus, thus the pop rivets. I don't mind hammering out by hand, but is there a way to do rivets with only one person?



I will be keeping as much plumbing and freshwater tanks on the inside of the insulated area as possible to avoid lines freezing over. We are going for two wood stoves on the bus, probably getting new stoves from fourdog.com, the "two dog" for the bedroom and the "four dog" for the kitchen/living room area. Have also looked at the ammocanstove.com stoves instead, for bedroom heating throughout the night. I can see using a plastic instead to frame in the inner "storm" windows. Not sure what to look for or where to buy them from, but I see what your saying.

I do have an air hammer. but-
I'll be using my new riveter from harbor freight to pop the new rivets in.

[charles_m]

I would highly encourage you to reconsider your stove choices. You probably wont kill yourself, and you probably wont burn up all the oxygen in the bus, but at the very least, a stove with an outside air intake would help keep the incoming drafts to a minimum and, from my experience, actually creates better draft in the stove.
Those thin steel plate stoves have very little thermal mass and while they do heat up quickly, they cool off fast and that wont be on your side when its the middle of the night and you're down to embers. I am dubious of how well their doors seal.
Of course a fancy stove like the Hobbit from Salamader is my dream stove, but it is close to 1100.

I've used a smaller woodstove (albeit a plate steel one) that had an outside air intake option that Home Depot sells for about $600 by a company called Summer's Heat or Englander depending on the branding. It also came with a 120v blower that mounted behind the stove to move the hot air into the room. Rated to heat up to 1200sf. A million times better than a camp stove.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

Just my .02 from having purchased a school bus once that had one of those camp-style stoves in it and it didnt make me feel comfortable.

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by ii_amnt

I will be keeping as much plumbing and freshwater tanks on the inside of the insulated area as possible to avoid lines freezing over... I can see using a plastic instead to frame in the inner "storm" windows. Not sure what to look for or where to buy them from, but I see what your saying.

I still suggest heat taping where possible, even inside if you will be in very cold weather regularly. I have had the interior of the bus get too cold at times since I am now the only one and I turn the heat down while I am at work.

PVC moulding

BTW, I work at HD and that is why most of my links are from HD since I know the store pretty well and what it carries. If your local store doesn't carry a product in stock, then you can usually order it either to your home or to the store and often not need to pay any shipping costs.

[ii_amnt]

Originally Posted by charles_m

With a rivet gun, you can rivet yourself!
I used the cheapo unit from Harbor Freight and had good results once I learned the tool's 'personality' haha.
Probably did 700 rivets when all was said and done and the gun does all the work. Of course you have to use rivets with an arbor in the center, which is a different look than the ones that require bucking (dont know what they're called).

I think these are called POP rivets? I have never riveted myself, tried to do a little research and youtubing about it, now I know how a POP rivet works and the gun seems pretty easy to use. I worry about relying on rivets and sealant to prevent moisture intrusion into the bus wall and spray foam, but I guess as long as you look over everything and reseal often, it shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by charles_m

I would highly encourage you to reconsider your stove choices. You probably wont kill yourself, and you probably wont burn up all the oxygen in the bus, but at the very least, a stove with an outside air intake would help keep the incoming drafts to a minimum and, from my experience, actually creates better draft in the stove.
Those thin steel plate stoves have very little thermal mass and while they do heat up quickly, they cool off fast and that wont be on your side when its the middle of the night and you're down to embers. I am dubious of how well their doors seal.
Of course a fancy stove like the Hobbit from Salamader is my dream stove, but it is close to 1100.

I've used a smaller woodstove (albeit a plate steel one) that had an outside air intake option that Home Depot sells for about $600 by a company called Summer's Heat or Englander depending on the branding. It also came with a 120v blower that mounted behind the stove to move the hot air into the room. Rated to heat up to 1200sf. A million times better than a camp stove.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander...g&gclsrc=aw.ds

Just my .02 from having purchased a school bus once that had one of those camp-style stoves in it and it didnt make me feel comfortable.

I see what you mean. The simplicity and price of those camp stoves draw me in, the concerns about being leaky are certainly valid. I may have to end up making room in the budget for a thicker, outdoor intake stove. Of course, more than one carbon monoxide and smoke detector will be present.

I would like to surround each stove (about 5 inches of clearance) with full size brick to hold onto more heat over time. I have an idea how to secure that to the frame of the bus to keep it both flexible and safe in case of the bus being jarred around in some kind of accident.

Originally Posted by lornaschinske

I still suggest heat taping where possible, even inside if you will be in very cold weather regularly. I have had the interior of the bus get too cold at times since I am now the only one and I turn the heat down while I am at work.

PVC moulding

BTW, I work at HD and that is why most of my links are from HD since I know the store pretty well and what it carries. If your local store doesn't carry a product in stock, then you can usually order it either to your home or to the store and often not need to pay any shipping costs.

Yes, I think that would be good. Cheap, too. You never know when you may be away from your home for longer than intended, wouldn't want to come back to frozen or busted water lines.

I really appreciate everyone's input here. Very valuable for someone like me who has plenty of learning to do when it comes to building my own "home".

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by ii_amnt

I think these are called POP rivets? I have never riveted myself, tried to do a little research and youtubing about it, now I know how a POP rivet works and the gun seems pretty easy to use. I worry about relying on rivets and sealant to prevent moisture intrusion into the bus wall and spray foam, but I guess as long as you look over everything and reseal often, it shouldn't be a problem.



I see what you mean. The simplicity and price of those camp stoves draw me in, the concerns about being leaky are certainly valid. I may have to end up making room in the budget for a thicker, outdoor intake stove. Of course, more than one carbon monoxide and smoke detector will be present.

I would like to surround each stove (about 5 inches of clearance) with full size brick to hold onto more heat over time. I have an idea how to secure that to the frame of the bus to keep it both flexible and safe in case of the bus being jarred around in some kind of accident.



Yes, I think that would be good. Cheap, too. You never know when you may be away from your home for longer than intended, wouldn't want to come back to frozen or busted water lines.

I really appreciate everyone's input here. Very valuable for someone like me who has plenty of learning to do when it comes to building my own "home".

Don't worry about the rivets, The entire bus body is riveted. How many of those leak? Use closed end rivets for outside and open rivets inside.

[charles_m]

You can definitely use open rivets outside--even though I don't think it lookds the best. My last carpenter used them from the factory! I can see the potential for problems, but if the rivets are stainless steel or aluminum, and as long as the arbor doesn't get accidentally pulled through, you should be leak/rust free.
If I could have, I would have definitely preferred to use bucked rivets on my bus, but not only did I not have access to the backs of rivets in a lot of places, I also didnt have access to another set of hands to hold the bucking bar.
And I definitely wouldn't worry about leaks, as long as you're keeping the spans inbetween rivets to just a few inches and use either an automotive panel adhesive or seam sealer where things overlap. Rivets are super strong in this application!

[EastCoastCB]

well if buying ahead and doing it right go with a closed back, mandrel type of rivet.

[nat_ster]

I currently live in a 16 foot section of bus. I have lived in it full time since mid September of this year. I also spent December, and January of 2011 in it. I live completely off grid, with one wood stove in the middle. Floor is not insulated, with fist size holes in it. Walls are insulated on the outside of the bus walls, with 6 inch fiberglass batting. Roof has a bit more.

There is no way you will need more than one wood stove.

I live near Edmonton Alberta Canada. I used to burn wood, but now burn 99% coal, with only a few pieces of broken pallets to flair the fire up faster in the morning. After burning coal, I don't want to burn wood anymore. Wood was 4 hours max between loadings. Coal is 12 to 24 hours between loadings.

Good luck, and take care.

Nat

[charles_m]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

well if buying ahead and doing it right go with a closed back, mandrel type of rivet.

I guess what I meant by 'open' was a 'pop' rivet.

I dont think I've ever seen a rivet with hole in it by design that isn't filled by the mandrel (I was calling it an arbor, whooops!).

[EastCoastCB]

This is a closed end mandrel rivet.


This is an open end mandrel rivet

[charles_m]

Hell yeah! Shoot, I wish I had known about that when I was doing mine! Thanks for the lesson.

Live and learn...

I'll use the closed ends on my next bus ;)

[EastCoastCB]

The closed ones are a bit tougher to find.
They're what's used on the exterior of buses at the factory.
I'm new to riveting, and only learned about these recently myself. Learn something new every day!

[ii_amnt]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

There is no way you will need more than one wood stove.

I live near Edmonton Alberta Canada. I used to burn wood, but now burn 99% coal, with only a few pieces of broken pallets to flair the fire up faster in the morning. After burning coal, I don't want to burn wood anymore. Wood was 4 hours max between loadings. Coal is 12 to 24 hours between loadings.

Good luck, and take care.

Nat

My main thinking was that if I could get a small stove in the bedroom that we could load it up with wood and heat a little more efficiently, we wouldn't have to get the main one heating up hot enough to warm the bus all the way back to the bedroom, all night. I could get out of bed if it gets to cold and toss on a log or two. Now, I am considering dropping that money on a nicer stove with thick walls and rearrange the floor plan a bit so that the bedroom and living room/kitchen are adjacent and the stove would heat them both effectively.

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

The closed ones are a bit tougher to find.
They're what's used on the exterior of buses at the factory.
I'm new to riveting, and only learned about these recently myself. Learn something new every day!

Thanks, this will be what I'l have to keep an eye out for. I am glad to see more things that I can tackle myself.

[charles_m]

You could always make some kind of boiler configuration and use your stove to heat water and then pipe it back to a radiator in your bedroom. Sounds crazy but its something id like to do. Thats what got me into the "hobbit" woodstove. It has a boiler option. Sexy sexy woodburning

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

I currently live in a 16 foot section of bus. I have lived in it full time since mid September of this year. I also spent December, and January of 2011 in it. I live completely off grid, with one wood stove in the middle. Floor is not insulated, with fist size holes in it. Walls are insulated on the outside of the bus walls, with 6 inch fiberglass batting. Roof has a bit more.

There is no way you will need more than one wood stove.

I live near Edmonton Alberta Canada. I used to burn wood, but now burn 99% coal, with only a few pieces of broken pallets to flair the fire up faster in the morning. After burning coal, I don't want to burn wood anymore. Wood was 4 hours max between loadings. Coal is 12 to 24 hours between loadings.

Good luck, and take care.

Nat

glad to see you back nat. looking forward to your posts.