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Old 09-08-2019, 08:54 PM   #261
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We are beginning to see some alternatives to going to the Allison /Navistar shop.

One or two have had a third party shop unlock 6th and Cadillac has managed to "clone" the image of a 3060 that has sixth unlocked to one that is not.

I think that we will have plenty of good alternatives in the near future.

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Old 09-08-2019, 08:55 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by o1marc View Post
As I previously mentioned, I have spoken to PCM about doing mine and they said they didn't have the software to accomplish it on the "older" Allisons (01 and earlier), If they tell you different they will be getting mine next week.
Ah.... now the truth comes out. Being a older type of TCM will change everything. You seem to have left that part out in most of yours and my exchange on here. Having a WTEC3 is a must for them. I think thats been laid out in this post. I assumed you had one that was capable of being flashed. Not that the Allison doc software would care but moving forward didnt they say you can upgrade to a WTEC3 from a WTEC2? I still have to go under the bus and confirm my type myself so maybe I have just shot myself in the foot? Guess we will see. I hope you get the conclusion you are looking for.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:02 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by bapos View Post
I thought i would update/add to this post. I put my earlier touch on it a lot of pages ago but hopefully this will help others in their journey.

To recap from my old post.... I had my local international dealer submit for 6th gear and got denied ( I know a real shocker) reason was too old.

Fast forward to about 2 months ago...... I was put in touch with a person who also has RE 466e/3060 that went through a dealer in Indiana. We talked through text for a week or so on the ins and outs of his unlock. Long story short he is the ONLY person I know of that has got a release from International. Once he got the release sent it to allison.... BOOM.... 6th gear.

So I follow the same path as he did.... talked to the same dealer in Indiana....blah blah blah, since he said he knows EXACTLY whom to talk to at International. Well short story long.... I got denied again. So I think they are pretty much shutting down all school bus related 6th gear unlocks. I thoughts this was going to be a slam dunk deal but was not to be.

By the sounds of it there are only a few options which I will start my journey to do that and hopefully get it unlocked. I have yet to locate my tcm on the bus as I thought other means were going to happen so I guess the time to go under the bus is now to see what type of TCM it has.

I would like to thank all who have posted on here. I enjoy the info share.... other than I hate those who just call a dealer and get it unlocked with no hassle at all.... just kidding but very envious ..... things like this are a huge help those of us sturggling with this.
Out of curiosity, was the bus that got the 6th gear approval the same year as yours? If so, it would be unusual if he (recently) got his approved but yours was denied.
If the drivetrain specs are the same (or similar enough) you could probably take his new calibration #/CIN to the Allison dealer, and ask them to reflash yours with this new number. This is how I finally got 6th on my Ď95 IH. On p. 2 of the Allison doc you supplied (Thanks for posting that, btw) this would be the option B for the 6th gear request, totally circumnavigating the chassis OEM, but still using Allison. For those of us with the older WTEC 2, this would seem to be the ONLY option, as aftermarket canít help us.
And itís not just busses that get denied: my truck is a retired Fire Dept Heavy Rescue. It would seem (and be consistent) that Allison would require ANY style vehicle to get either OEM approval or supply option B (as above).
And I applaud your efforts at trying to help others get this done more quickly! These are murky waters, but neednít be. It seems many of the dealers (both Allison and OEM) donít get these requests frequently, if at all. Therefore the people that have to do the job first have to learn how to do it. This probably contributes to the ďcontradictory infoĒ that o1marc referred to.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:19 PM   #264
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Out of curiosity, was the bus that got the 6th gear approval the same year as yours? If so, it would be unusual if he (recently) got his approved but yours was denied.
If the drivetrain specs are the same (or similar enough) you could probably take his new calibration #/CIN to the Allison dealer, and ask them to reflash yours with this new number. This is how I finally got 6th on my Ď95 IH. On p. 2 of the Allison doc you supplied (Thanks for posting that, btw) this would be the option B for the 6th gear request, totally circumnavigating the chassis OEM, but still using Allison. For those of us with the older WTEC 2, this would seem to be the ONLY option, as aftermarket canít help us.
And itís not just busses that get denied: my truck is a retired Fire Dept Heavy Rescue. It would seem (and be consistent) that Allison would require ANY style vehicle to get either OEM approval or supply option B (as above).
And I applaud your efforts at trying to help others get this done more quickly! These are murky waters, but neednít be. It seems many of the dealers (both Allison and OEM) donít get these requests frequently, if at all. Therefore the people that have to do the job first have to learn how to do it. This probably contributes to the ďcontradictory infoĒ that o1marc referred to.
I think his was a 00 rear engine 466e like mine so he I think is one year older than me. So he may very well be with the older tcm type. I didnt keep that text exchange once the dealer that he used came back with the no. I still have his number so I can reach out to him again. But I know his was legit. Only odd difference is he uses his bus for transporting people who do white water rafting .... ie a business but to me that should make no diff. You either approve them or you dont based on age and type.

The Allison dealer I talked to is a BIG one in the Dallas Fort Worth area. She knew what she was doing and knew exactly what to say and send me with out hesitation. Now your going to make me go read that part B in more detail to see what it says.

I dont mind helping others. Its just in my nature to do so, but when I see things that I know in my experience to not be so I will also speak out. Not saying what I say is always right but in my fight in all of this I have never ever heard of allison telling someone no.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:27 PM   #265
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Well as far as PCM not being able to unlock anything prior to 2000 or '01 I wouldn't know anything about it, he did my '03, TWICE because the first time it came back it wouldn't go in gear or do anything. I contacted them and he asked what code/codes it was giving and told me to send it back, he'd get it right this time, and he did. EMAILS ARE FREE, it's worth the time and effort to remove the bolts that hold the TCM in your bus and take a picture and email it to PCM and when he looks at the CIN number on the back he will know one way or the other if he can program yours. Simple, and all it cost to find out is time and effort to take a picture and send an email. I got fed up dealing with Thomas and Allison and Dealers and few emails with Alex at PCM and I solved the problem.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:32 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by bapos View Post
Ah.... now the truth comes out. Being a older type of TCM will change everything. You seem to have left that part out in most of yours and my exchange on here. Having a WTEC3 is a must for them. I think thats been laid out in this post. I assumed you had one that was capable of being flashed. Not that the Allison doc software would care but moving forward didnt they say you can upgrade to a WTEC3 from a WTEC2? I still have to go under the bus and confirm my type myself so maybe I have just shot myself in the foot? Guess we will see. I hope you get the conclusion you are looking for.
An Ď01 should be WTEC3, but perhaps an early version. Someone posted before how the aftermarket guy gave him the numbers for a newer style WTEC3 to look for.
According to a 1998 Allison trouble shooting manual, 1997 was the crossover year, with both WTEC2 and WTEC3 being made. Transmissions (prob not all of them???) from this year could run with either TCM style. There is a slight wiring difference on the trans between the two control styles.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:39 PM   #267
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Well as far as PCM not being able to unlock anything prior to 2000 or '01 I wouldn't know anything about it, he did my '03, TWICE because the first time it came back it wouldn't go in gear or do anything. I contacted them and he asked what code/codes it was giving and told me to send it back, he'd get it right this time, and he did. EMAILS ARE FREE, it's worth the time and effort to remove the bolts that hold the TCM in your bus and take a picture and email it to PCM and when he looks at the CIN number on the back he will know one way or the other if he can program yours. Simple, and all it cost to find out is time and effort to take a picture and send an email. I got fed up dealing with Thomas and Allison and Dealers and few emails with Alex at PCM and I solved the problem.
I agree with all you said there. I have come to the conclusion that International is not going to help me at all and to me is a dead end now, which is why I am mining here again.

My goal is to try and get under the bus tomorrow and see if I can find the info they need. I was told earlier in here that on my year Amtran its on the passenger side frame rail by the trans in the back of the bus since its rear engine.

I think that says a lot about these guys @pcm that they made it right to you.

My question to all that have had theirs flashed by PCM is this.... If for some reason you had to take your bus in for service to a allison dealer will they know any difference once they plug in and read info? This is one of the very questions I was going to ask PCM.
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:46 PM   #268
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I agree with all you said there. I have come to the conclusion that International is not going to help me at all and to me is a dead end now, which is why I am mining here again.

My goal is to try and get under the bus tomorrow and see if I can find the info they need. I was told earlier in here that on my year Amtran its on the passenger side frame rail by the trans in the back of the bus since its rear engine.

I think that says a lot about these guys @pcm that they made it right to you.

My question to all that have had theirs flashed by PCM is this.... If for some reason you had to take your bus in for service to a allison dealer will they know any difference once they plug in and read info? This is one of the very questions I was going to ask PCM.
Great question.

If you go to Allison later would they return you to your original configuration or refuse to work on it? Or, would they ignore it?
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:02 PM   #269
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Great question.

If you go to Allison later would they return you to your original configuration or refuse to work on it? Or, would they ignore it?
I think all they can do is work with what they have in your TCM. I do not know if it is like other programmers that leave "finger prints" like say a diesel programmer does when you flash your ECM. The dealership can see info that tells them it has or has not if they look hard enough. This is why you probably dont want to use a flash on a diesel motor that is under warranty.

I will ask them and see what PCM says?
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:21 PM   #270
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Ah.... now the truth comes out. Being a older type of TCM will change everything. You seem to have left that part out in most of yours and my exchange on here. Having a WTEC3 is a must for them. I think thats been laid out in this post. I assumed you had one that was capable of being flashed. Not that the Allison doc software would care but moving forward didnt they say you can upgrade to a WTEC3 from a WTEC2? I still have to go under the bus and confirm my type myself so maybe I have just shot myself in the foot? Guess we will see. I hope you get the conclusion you are looking for.
Mine is capable of being flashed. I think in all my posts I mentioned the difference between 01 and earlier being hard to get done and the ones who had success were all newer. There were models in 99 year that were open.
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:27 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by 1dmpo View Post
Well as far as PCM not being able to unlock anything prior to 2000 or '01 I wouldn't know anything about it, he did my '03, TWICE because the first time it came back it wouldn't go in gear or do anything. I contacted them and he asked what code/codes it was giving and told me to send it back, he'd get it right this time, and he did. EMAILS ARE FREE, it's worth the time and effort to remove the bolts that hold the TCM in your bus and take a picture and email it to PCM and when he looks at the CIN number on the back he will know one way or the other if he can program yours. Simple, and all it cost to find out is time and effort to take a picture and send an email. I got fed up dealing with Thomas and Allison and Dealers and few emails with Alex at PCM and I solved the problem.
I personally talked to Alex on the phone, he is the one who told me they didn't have the software for the early model. I consider that straight from the horses mouth. Like I said, when he changes his mind, I'll be first in line.
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:40 PM   #272
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Mine is capable of being flashed. I think in all my posts I mentioned the difference between 01 and earlier being hard to get done and the ones who had success were all newer. There were models in 99 year that were open.
Am I missing something here..... You have a 99 that you can be flashed.... yet your quote above says the 01 and earlier being hard to get done? They say the devil is in the details so Im just trying to make sure others know why..... or why they can not be flashed. Not everyone is going to read every post in here so they will grab the details that only catch their eye or fit their story.

Just trying to understand why imo this seems to contradict itself. Please help clear this up?
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:43 PM   #273
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I’ve no idea how PCM does it.. what I do know is that WTECII units were not field programmable as they have no data link other than OBD1 style and used a prolink dedicated tool for diagnostics ..

Model year 97 both navistar and cat add J1939 interfaces to their engine computers midway through. Cummins got it with the ISB and ISC in 98.

Allison WTEC3 uses J1939 to get throttle and other engine data. This is also the programming port.. as mentioned 97/98 was the change year. It’s easy to tell if your navistar is j1939 as your temp gauge tops at 290 and your oil P is a 90 degree sweep instead of full circle. With that dash your TCM should be wtec3
If I remember right wtec2 had a dual display and wtec3 just had a single digit.
Gen4 went back to 2 digit . Those are you 04/05+ to be gen 4.

The ones I did wee def wtec3 with j1939 as I told my DOC software to use 1939..
Since we are all geeks with busses that day I also unplugged the shift pad and inserted my raspberry pi in place as ID 5 and could shift his trans with commands from my pi into the data link.... we did that first to see if I could command 6th gear as a primary control device but no dice till after reclash
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:45 PM   #274
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Am I missing something here..... You have a 99 that you can be flashed.... yet your quote above says the 01 and earlier being hard to get done? They say the devil is in the details so Im just trying to make sure others know why..... or why they can not be flashed. Not everyone is going to read every post in here so they will grab the details that only catch their eye or fit their story.

Just trying to understand why imo this seems to contradict itself. Please help clear this up?
My experience:
Allison said my bus was too old to unlock 6th gear.
PCM said they did not have the software to open 6th on my 99.
I spoke to service centers that would unlock mine and could unlock mine, right after Allison says yes and provides the codes.
YMMV

This has been a hot topic for years now and no one has provided a way for anyone to get it done. There's always going to be I know some one who knows some one who said this.
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:45 PM   #275
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Bapos PCM claims they can’t do earlier than 00.. no idea how they do theirs but his 99 should be wtec3 which can be reflashed with a different CIN
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:56 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
Iíve no idea how PCM does it.. what I do know is that WTECII units were not field programmable as they have no data link other than OBD1 style and used a prolink dedicated tool for diagnostics ..

Model year 97 both navistar and cat add J1939 interfaces to their engine computers midway through. Cummins got it with the ISB and ISC in 98.

Allison WTEC3 uses J1939 to get throttle and other engine data. This is also the programming port.. as mentioned 97/98 was the change year. Itís easy to tell if your navistar is j1939 as your temp gauge tops at 290 and your oil P is a 90 degree sweep instead of full circle. With that dash your TCM should be wtec3
If I remember right wtec2 had a dual display and wtec3 just had a single digit.
Gen4 went back to 2 digit . Those are you 04/05+ to be gen 4.

The ones I did wee def wtec3 with j1939 as I told my DOC software to use 1939..
Since we are all geeks with busses that day I also unplugged the shift pad and inserted my raspberry pi in place as ID 5 and could shift his trans with commands from my pi into the data link.... we did that first to see if I could command 6th gear as a primary control device but no dice till after reclash
Glad to see this info. I just looked at my dash and it has all the info you outlined in your post. So I am hoping i dont have some weird odd thing that keeps me from getting this done.

I do have a question for you Cadillac..... what can you clone and what can you not clone?
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:28 AM   #277
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Glad to see this info. I just looked at my dash and it has all the info you outlined in your post. So I am hoping i dont have some weird odd thing that keeps me from getting this done.

I do have a question for you Cadillac..... what can you clone and what can you not clone?
If PCM canít, try to get the CIN from the guy who got the 6th gear. Have him send a pic of the sticker they put on his TCM. Take that to Allison along with your TCM and they probably can and will reflash it with his calibration. Thatís what I did.
Think of it this way: your TCM dies, you need a new one. You buy the compatible hardware but it now has the wrong software. Allison will gladly reflash your new hardware with the programming matching your old TCM so that you have the ďcorrectĒ programming. They canít generate new programming for your new TCM, but they can use a PROVIDED CIN! Provide them with a 6-gear CIN.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:09 PM   #278
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I have a 98 blue bird csre with 8.3 and b300 transmission. Mine is wtec3 but early version. PCM could not program my tcm because he said he did not support the old 250k units. I would need to get a newer 500k tcm programmed with my cin and 6 speeds. I went this route $795 for programmed tcm that has 6 gears. It was cheaper and easier than re-gear.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:27 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Trailer2 View Post
I have a 98 blue bird csre with 8.3 and b300 transmission. Mine is wtec3 but early version. PCM could not program my tcm because he said he did not support the old 250k units. I would need to get a newer 500k tcm programmed with my cin and 6 speeds. I went this route $795 for programmed tcm that has 6 gears. It was cheaper and easier than re-gear.
What is your gear ratio and what rpm are you running at 65? I have a similar bus and want to go to 5.38 if I can get 6th unlocked.

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Old 09-09-2019, 10:33 PM   #280
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5.38 ratio 11r22.5. Under 2000rpm at 70 mph. An rpm calculator is a really handy tool to find out what will get your rpms where you want them. Mine worked out being very close.
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