Battery Bank Charging Options

[msearslive]

Good morning!

I'd like some feedback and discussion from actual bus/rv converters on the subject of powering batteries with solar vs an alternator. A few people have discussed some of this with me very briefly in another thread when I was inquiring about installing an A/C verus a rooftop fan. But in light of new information I have been provided, I thought I'd reach out to this community for thoughts.

I spoke with a professional electrician who works for a solar energy company in my area in Iowa. I live in an area of Iowa where the residential construction is absolutely blowing up and this company is installing solar on to people's homes in what seems to be an unbelievable and almost unrealistic pace. Anyway, I was describing my needs and hopes for solar energy as I'm converting my short bus into my new FT home. Come to find out - at least according to this individual - my 18v solar panels will not work with my 12v LiFePO4 100Ah batteries. He says they will ruin them. He advises that I either replace the solar panels, or the batteries - one of the two. This is very, very disappointing to me because as we all know these lithium batteries are pricey. I saved up and spent very close to $950 on EACH of my batteries. My solar panels were $237 and change EACH. I have two of each right now - thank goodness I haven't purchased the 3rd or even 4th ones yet. Ideally, I was hoping to have 800 watts in solar panels and 300watts in battery bank. As I understand it from reading - you don't actually get what you pay for with solar panels - (SHOCKER! Isn't that the way of life anymore though?). I have read you lose anywhere between 15-25% of whatever your solar panel says it's rated for. So that's why I was hoping to get at least 800 watts of solar panels up on top of the bus.

So, my first question - do you concur with this gentleman's opinion? I purchased the 18v solar panels after I contacted the company and specifically asked if they would work with the batteries I had. They said that "the 18v panels are made for 12v batteries and use." That was their words in an email. Due to conflicting information I'm receiving from the solar panel saleman versus this professional solar electrician - I am concerned to say the least. I am outside of any window to return the solar panels even though they're still NIB and have never been used. Ever. I suppose I could eBay them and hope that with any luck I can possibly get 50% of my investment? I doubt highly that I'll get my $237 returned on each of them.

This solar electrician and I also discussed different options for charging the batteries - particularly as a means of alternative backups (as I've mentioned in another thread). For kicks and giggles so-to-speak; I mentioned my idea of being able to charge my lithium batteries from the alternator. Now as you amy recall from my previous post; the company I bought the batteries from (Battle Born Batteries) responded to my inquiry on this as follows:

"Our batteries are not designed to work as a start up battery. So it will not run your vehicle. You can charge off of the alternator but with that we recommend using sterling power:https://battlebornbatteries.com/ster...ttery-charger/ the reason why is because the lithium batteries will try to pull all the power that the alternator can give. This will stress and shorten the lifespan of the alternator. Putting in the Sterling will lessen the load."

So this is where I've become a bit conflicted; yet at the same time curious and interested. The solar electrician told me that charging my batteries with my engine's alternator is absolutely a possibility. He said as long as I have an appropriately upgraded alternator that he doesn't understand why Battle Born would tell me I can't do this. He said he does it himself. (Pause: Get this: he stated that he actually has three alternators in his vehicle. one for his battery bank, one for audio, and one for the engine. Now I'm not sure what the heck would make someone want to have three alternators in one vehicle, but I am an absolute novice with zero experience so I can't really speak to that. It just surprised me as I've never heard of TWO alternators in a vehicle much less three, but who knows.) My interest though was that he is saying I can, in fact, use an alternator as a means to charge my lithium battery bank. He stated that if I used all lithium batteries throughout the entire vehicle that ONE appropriately-sized alternator would charge all of them. He suggested if nothing else placing a second alternator that's dedicated for the house lithium battery bank and then leaving my engine's current lead acid battery in place with the existing alternator to save a great deal of money.

If this is the case, if it is true, why one earth would I even consider solar panels? I mean, with the exception of the fact that it's nearly 100% green of course. When I think about it all (and this is all only based on if what he's saying is true about charging my battery bank with an alternator):

1) Using solar to charge the battery bank is a "trickle charge" correct? It takes hours and hours. And it only works well on bright sunny days typically between 10AM-2PM. From the little bit I understand; outside of those hours you are getting very minimal energy from the sun through the solar panels to charge the batteries. If it's not bright and sunny - the stats drop even further.

2) Using an alternator to do this (according to him) charges them "almost instantly." So, while I'm driving to pick up fresh fruits or veggies wherever I'm at, my batteries are being charged all the while and fast it sounds like. Much faster than solar can do at this point in time. Even if I was boondocking and not driving every day, I could just fire up the bus and let it idle for a bit and then have my batteries recharged. Right? Or no?

3) Using an alternator is similar to using a generator, correct? Similar concepts? IF so, and I don't go the route of an alternator (if it's even REALLY possible - and feasible - because I have no idea what the cost would be to do this) - if I just powered up a generator every day and let it run for a bit would it in essence to the same thing? Charge the lithium batteries pretty quickly? I see all these generators online and they're such wattages as 1800, 2000, 4000, on and on ... if that's the watts it's putting out and providing - well, geez. That's SIGNIFICANTLY more than a combination of solar panels at 800 watts, and sounds to me like charging via a generator would be substantially quicker. Not sure though.

I come to this community because you all do this every day. You live the life. You see the ins and outs. And I value information and opinions very much. I just don't want to take one person's word as gold - even if he is a professional solar electrician. I am already out $750 from apparent naiveness letting a guy try to work on my short bus and get me set up with the electrical work I need. I trust you'll understand my flinch-mentality and hesitation with all of this at this point.

In closing (apologies for the lenghty post here); would anyone provide their thoughts and advice based on this conversation? This solar electrician is coming out this evening after work to see everything in person and try to give me a better feel for what I'm looking to do on the bus, and help me set up a game plan for getting the electrical completed so I can FINALLY continue on the build. I've had this bus for almost two months and have made little progress outside of the demo, and insulation installation. I'm beginning framing now, but am hesitant to go too far until the electrical is completed simply because I don't know if there is a proper order I should being doing this. I feel like I need the electrical done at this point though.

Thanks again! And if you made it through is ENTIIIIIIIRE post - god you are amazing. *shuts up now*

[Drew Bru]

I'm at about the same stage you're at. Demo and insulation and a bit of interior work, and am currently (hah!) contemplating the electrical system. It seems like an MPPT charge controller should take care of that 18V solar panel issue, no? I thought an MPPT controller would adjust the power from the panels to the batteries in the most efficient way, including making the adjustment from (say) 24V to 12V. That was my understanding, anyway. A solar electrician would, presumably, have more knowledge about this than I do though. At least, I would hope so.

As far as the alternator vs. solar panels, I'd encourage you to look into it more. It might not be as simple as "almost instantly" or just "firing up the bus and let it idle for a bit". Also, your solar electrician may not have LiFePO4 batteries.....he may have lead acid batteries. They may not even be deep cycle batteries. Again, I'm still in the self-educating stage of this so take my opinion as worth what you've paid for it....but LiFePO4 may very well be a totally different beast.

Check out this marine forum thread on charging times: Battery chargeing times

[JDOnTheGo]

Originally Posted by msearslive

I have read you lose anywhere between 15-25% of whatever your solar panel says it's rated for.

That's reasonable. It depends on the time of year and aiming of the panels. My flat mounted panels have produced a maximum of about 85% during the summer and closer to about 50% during the winter months.

Originally Posted by msearslive

So, my first question - do you concur with this gentleman's opinion?

No, I do not. He seems to be completely ignoring the solar charge controller.

The panels are not connected directly to the battery. The panels connect to a charge controller which connects to the battery. The charge controller is smart and knows how to feed the batteries correctly. Of course, I am talking about an MPPT charge controller here (smarter but also more expensive). The basic premise of MPPT is that it will convert any amperage/voltage (within reason, and it's limits) from the panels to the appropriate voltage/amperage for the battery (depending on it state of charge (SOC)).

Originally Posted by msearslive

... the company I bought the batteries from (Battle Born Batteries) responded to my inquiry on this as follows:

"Our batteries are not designed to work as a start up battery. So it will not run your vehicle. You can charge off of the alternator but with that we recommend using sterling power:https://battlebornbatteries.com/ster...ttery-charger/ the reason why is because the lithium batteries will try to pull all the power that the alternator can give. This will stress and shorten the lifespan of the alternator. Putting in the Sterling will lessen the load."

Sounds correct to me. However; you must ensure that the "custom" configuration of this device can be set to match your lithium battery requirements. I would expect a typical alternator to quickly destroy lithium batteries (due to incorrect voltage). Even finding a 120VAC battery charger that is intended for lithium is not that easy (though they are starting to appear now).

Originally Posted by msearslive

So this is where I've become a bit conflicted; yet at the same time curious and interested. The solar electrician told me that charging my batteries with my engine's alternator is absolutely a possibility.

I can only guess that this fellow does not know much about Lithium batteries. Lithium is very different and require different charging voltages than provided by a typical alternator (the term "upgraded" is not defined so I'm not sure what is meant). That said, I would sure love to see someone perfect this as it would be nice to have. However; I won't be experimenting on my big lithium investment.

Originally Posted by msearslive

If this is the case, if it is true, why one earth would I even consider solar panels?

If you drive every day, makes sense. I only drive (run my coach engine) every two-three weeks - I need lots of electrical power in between/while parked/living. So, the right answer depends on your mission. In my case, idling a 425hp diesel engine just to spin an alternator is not very efficient (but it is easy).

Originally Posted by msearslive

1) Using solar to charge the battery bank is a "trickle charge" correct? It takes hours and hours. And it only works well on bright sunny days typically between 10AM-2PM.

Negative. It is 9:30AM where I am and my solar is currently producing 60 amps (@12 volts - winter months). That is most certainly NOT trickle charging. It will also produce power when cloudy (this is my last coach with only 600 watts solar Solar Power and Clouds - JdFinley.com). Obviously, this answer is biased as I have a big solar system. If one had a 50 watt panel - yes, that is trickle charging.

Originally Posted by msearslive

2) Using an alternator to do this (according to him) charges them "almost instantly."

Sounds like a salesman. "almost instantly" certainly is not going to happen but you have to define the battery capacity and alternator size/rpm/output to have actual numbers to look at.

Originally Posted by msearslive

3) Using an alternator is similar to using a generator, correct? Similar concepts?

Well... sorta. A generator typically provides 120VAC. That can be used to run the air conditioners and such but also powers a battery charger to charge the batteries. A generator is nice as a completely independent power source. However; it has a cost (per-hour and maintenance) and makes noise (some of us hate noise...).

Originally Posted by msearslive

...if I just powered up a generator every day and let it run for a bit would it in essence to the same thing? Charge the lithium batteries pretty quickly? I see all these generators online and they're such wattages as 1800, 2000, 4000, on and on ... if that's the watts it's putting out and providing - well, geez. That's SIGNIFICANTLY more than a combination of solar panels at 800 watts, and sounds to me like charging via a generator would be substantially quicker. Not sure though.

Lithium does charge more quickly than lead acid. The latter has a much slower absorption rate and charging takes hours and hours. It doesn't matter how much power your generator (or shore power) can push at them - they can only accept so much so fast. There are published "maximums" for Lithium charging (such as .5C for my batteries). That said, there have been many exciting "events" related to "mis-charging" lithium batteries. As I said, I won't be experimenting on my big lithium investment (or the expensive container in which they reside).

[Robin97396]

You're doing what we all do. Floundering in the deep end of the solar pool. I'm no expert, but I've been listening to these solar and charging conversations for several years. There are specific charge controllers made specifically for charging your battery bank using the alternator. They are most commonly used in ambulances.

I don't know beans about your very expensive batteries except that they are very expensive. Reportedly they are a bit more delicate than regular lead acid batteries. Most of the charge controllers can be set for different type of batteries and to draw only a certain level of power. I'm told the do-all charge controllers exist but are kind of expensive. Meh, everything involving power is expensive.

You're on the right track. You've basically answered most of your own questions, so apparently you've been studying. You can either wade through all the chargers available or you can copycat someone that already spent the time making the decision. That's what I plan to do when I find a system that matches what I think I'd like to have.

The ambulance charging setup is reported to work well, but to maintain the battery bank I'm told it works best if the vehicle is being driven near 10 hours per day. That's a no go for me. I travel slow unless I'm in a desperate situation.

Even generators take quite some time to charge the house batteries. That's why so many people like going to a campground where they can charge the batteries from the grid overnight. That seems like some very expensive electrical power to me if you have to pay for a camp sight. I thought having independent power was what makes us able to skip paying high campground prices.

I like the KISS theory. I want my system to be dependable, and I can't count on charging house batteries from the grid while traveling. Solar is getting better but still has limitations with this frequent Oregon cloud cover. I carry a generator for dependable power. It's nice if your generator can directly power whatever appliances you decide to use eliminating the need for power conversion/charging and large power draws on the house batteries. You can also run the generator while your driving to charge batteries or to run an AC system. Generally speaking it seems to be best to avoid large power draws on the house batteries.

I'm thinking about 80% of my power needs can be met by a generator. This reduces the number of batteries needed for the other lightweight electrical needs like lights, tv and phones.

You seem to have a good grip on your power needs. It's a lot of information overall.

Good luck.

[msearslive]

Hi Drew:

Thanks for the response and feedback. It is truly awesome to interact with folks who are in similar positions as myself with this bus conversion project. I am so overwhelmed anymore with this entire ordeal that some times I wonder what I've gotten myself into. But, that's the "flight" mode in me as much as I don't want to be that way. I think it's innate - haha!

However! I'd like to consider myself pretty tenacious when I set my mind to something. And this conversion project is an idea I am dead set on. I want this more than anything in my life at this point. So I won't let the fact that I'm a 'newbie' (if you will) cause me to run and put my head in a hole. :P I just need help is all.

There is a posted response directly after yours from JDonTheGo - and I'll be responding in depth with pictures as to boot. Your point regarding the solar controller is exactly where my mind went when I had this conversation with the solar electrician. Read more shortly at on my response to JDonTheGo.

Best to you my friend! Give me a few minutes to type everything up....

Note: I apparently am a very long-winded person with written communication and I apologize. Now then, let me get started ... will be back!

[Twigg]

The solar guy didn't really understand your problem.

The only thing that should be charging your batteries is a proper multi-stage charger, and that is not an alternator.

The alternator can feed a converter charger, or you can use an Inverter charger fed by shore power or a genny, or your solar can charge them via your charge controller.

You may need some switching to determine which source is feeding the batteries.

[msearslive]

Everyone:

My goodness - I couldn't be more sincere if I tried any harder when I say thank you thank you THANK YOU for all of this informative discussion. Thanks for taking time out of your day to answer questions like mine. I. LOVE. Skoolie.net. I LOVE IT!

So, I should start this out by saying that ironically this solar electrician and I actually did not ever discuss my solar controller. I've added a picture of the solar controller I have (as well as pics of the battery, inverter and some other stuff I purchased on the electrical side of this conversion). I'm not quite sure why the solar controller didn't come up in our lengthy conversaation yesterday to be honest. Hmm.

Let me ask this I guesss. My thought is that perhaps the funtionality and operation of a solar system for a fixed struture like a house is vastly different than in an automobile. My logical, amateur guess is that when people have solar set up in their homes/businesses that they aren't STORING electricity. They're simply pulling from the solar and it automatically powers the appliances in the fix structure??? So maybe that's why he never brought up a solar controller? I would think that with the amount of solar panels on people roofs that it would seem very unlikely they are storing the power in a battery bank. Lord have mercy, I'd think you'd need the equivalent of an entire basement full of nothing but batteries if that were the case. I've never been inside someone's home who is running solar so I can't say. But that's just what makes sense to someone like me.

At any rate, I have a 40amp MPPT solar controller (at least I think it's 40amps - it says "40T" on it - I am only assuming that it is 40amps). At this point, I can't even say what prompted me to purchase this particular solar controller other than I read over and over again that MPPT was the way to go as far as long term investment. My intention all along the way so far (electrically-speaking) was to INVEST in quality versus quantity. I am trying to keep to that because I only intend on running "Wilson (my short bus) for 1-2 years before I upgrade to a much, much newer, nice bus or setup (I'm sorry Wilson! I'm so sorry!!!). I want to be able to strip everything I can out of the current bus and be able to move it right over to another one when the time comes.

This solar electrician - admittedly - works on houses. Lots and lots and lots of houses and other fixed structures. Clearly he does his own work on mobile/automotive on his own time, but the company he works for focuses strictly on fixed structures. That said, perhaps houses and such don't use solar controllers? I honestly have no idea - I suppose in this case it's really neither here nor there.

Drew and JDonTheGo both have mentioned the solar controllers. So do that I have this. I was fairly confident when I bought the 18v solar panels that it was fine due to the fact that I did have this solar controller. So it is extremely encouraging to know I don't have to go put my head through a random wall in frustration. Based on what I'm hearing from feedback from you folks - my controller should handle the 'conversion' (if that's the right terminology) of the 18v solar panels to the my two 12v batteries. Correct?

I already have approximately $2500 invested alone just between the panels and the batteries. That's not including wiring, solar controller, inverter, inverter switch, etc. If I can keep all of this stuff and continue to add to it that would be swell! Just splendid! Primarily because I've negotiated with both companies for the battery and solar panels and they're willing to give me a break/discount on my next purchases because I'm a return customer. Got lucky there! The discount isn't much, but good lordy anything is better than nothing, right?

Robin, thanks so much for the words of encouragement. Was awesome reading your response. So far, as I type this you were the latest responder. I probably can't keep jumping on and thanking people invidually, but where and when I can, I really like to show gratefulness and thanks. So thank you!

JDonTheGo: your post was invaluable! I don't necessarily want to go the route of using the alternator as a primary means of charging the battery bank - especially based on your feedback. I certainly did not work hard and save up all this money to invest in my new 'home' (if you will) just to see that investment, well, literally burned up and fried. That would make me think bad thoughts. :P "Ain't nobody got time for that!" I think I'll toss the idea (in it's entirety) of using the alternator as a power source moving forward. I'll let that alternator do exactly what it seems designed to do - charge my regular bus battery under the hood.

I am encouraged to read that the solar energy I'm getting from the sun on the panels is NOT actually a 'trickle charge' and I hope as I add more to the equation that this will help me even further along the way. As I mentioned earlier (or I think I did); I'd like to get a total of at least 800 watts of solar panels on top of the bus. That would mean purchasing another two 200w solar panels.

Can anyone advise on the following regarding battery banks. If I have three 100Ah lithium batteries providing me obviously 300Ah of total battery power - would 4x 200w solar panels be sufficient to charge this battery bank throughout the day on reasonable days? I know that this is more than likely a loaded question as there are apparently soooo many variables (season of the year, clear vs overcast days, etc). Is there a guesstimate that anyone is willing to give? Here are the devices we currently have set to run on the bus but by no means whatsoever all at once - and of course not all day long:

-Induction Stovetop (one burner) @ 1800w
-Two Cell Phone Chargers @ 25w (combined)
-Laptop @ 65w
-Shower Head @ 2500w
-Overhead Lighting (LED) @ 18w
-Mini Fridge @ 500w (supposedly approximately total for a 24hour period - supposedly)
-Outside electric/charcoal grill @ 1500w
-MaxxAir Rooftop fan @ 12v (i looked everywhere and could not find the watts - still looking)

Some notes on these items:
-Induction Stovetop - 1800 watts is at max heat - generally we cook most of our food between 200-300 degrees which according to the manual is 700-1200watts. 1800 watts is at 450 degrees which we haven't had any need to use thus far.
-Shower Head heater - I've included a picture of this shower head. I've actually heard mixed reviews on this item and I'll be making a completely seperate post with my thoughts and questions on it. Look for that to come after this post. (I'm just FULL of questions haha!)
-MiniFridge - This is only listed as a possible inclusion. We are very seriously considering and working on any way to avoid having a mini-fridge all together. Believe it or not, I really do think we could get by without making a fridge a necessity. However, I would be super curious to hear people's opinions on this who are living the bus life.
-Outside grill - This is an alternative source we'd use on most days as long as the weather is nice. It's an electric + charcoal/woodchip combination grill. We've contemplated doing away all together with the induction stovetop and just using this grill. My concern is how do we cook if it's storming outside? Still working this idea through.
-MaxxAir rooftop - I'm naively listing this and hoping to use it as a means to cool the bus to a reasonable temp inside. I don't know that it will keep the bus cool enough, but am hopeful it would. We have our bus insultated throughout (with exception of the floor) with 3M Insulate insulation. I can't speak for the summer time yet when it's warm/hot - but throughout the winter it has really done a surprising job with locking in the heat when I'm in the bus working and have a small space heater running. I've been very impressed. Not being a professional, my biggest concern is that if it's doing such a decent job keeping the heat in this winter - is it going to turn the inside of the bus into a sauna and cause us to melt. I'd prefer not to meet my maker in the same fate as Frosty the snowman. That would make me sad.

Having a generator has become more and more of an option that I feel we need to consider due to the valid and valuable opinions of folks who have responded and pointed out that if possible, it's ideal to try to keep larger energy consuming items from running on the batteries (induction stove, showerhead, electric grill, and even air conditioner if we got one). That said, I don't know that we'd be running any of these higher energy consuming items at night. IF we had a generator, than these three items would be able to be used during the day. However, for the sake of discussion - I cannot imagine running an air conditioner off of a generator at night. I would imagine I'd lose what little smarts I have trying to sleep with a generator running on the outside of the bus in order to power it. Running an AC off the batteries is just flat out not an option I've come to learn. Not without a substantially larger battery bank. And I'd like to keep it at 2-3x 100Ah lithium batteries if possible.

Okay, time for me to shush now. Take a look at the pics I've attached if you're interested. I'll get started on my next post regarding a shower system.

[JDOnTheGo]

Most "in-town" houses with solar are called "grid tie" systems. You are right, they are not storing any power. It is connected directly to the power grid. Power produced in excess of what the house needs goes into the grid for someone else to use.

MPPT is the way to go. However; you need to be certain your charge controller can be configured to provide the proper power to the lithium batteries. I had to program my Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 to do this (Programming Solar Charge Controller for Lithium - JdFinley.com). Most charge controller (that I am aware of) do not have a "lithium" option out of the box.

Originally Posted by msearslive

...my controller should handle the 'conversion' (if that's the right terminology) of the 18v solar panels to the my two 12v batteries. Correct?

Correct. However; you have the added complexity of the lithium battery. So, as above, the charge controller needs the smarts to be configurable - and you need to see that it is configured correctly (per your battery requirements).

Originally Posted by msearslive

I certainly did not work hard and save up all this money to invest in my new 'home' (if you will) just to see that investment, well, literally burned up and fried.

Exactly! Remember too - your solar panels are working/charging even when you are driving.

Originally Posted by msearslive

If I have three 100Ah lithium batteries providing me obviously 300Ah of total battery power - would 4x 200w solar panels be sufficient to charge this battery bank throughout the day on reasonable days?

Yes - a loaded question. 300 Ah of lithium gives you about 255 Ah usable (85% of capacity). Far better than the 50% lead-acid provides. You need to do an energy audit (Energy Audit - Watt For? - JdFinley.com) to know what YOU need. This involves putting a time component to each of your devices. The induction stovetop for example, you might use it 15 minutes in a day or two hours. I use mine about once a week (when boondocking) and mostly use my BBQ instead. The microwave is used a lot but usually for 1 minute at a time. It uses a lot of power so the difference between using it 1 minute a day to re-heat coffee is much different than 30 minutes. Once you put a time component to these items, you can calculate your required amp-hours per day.

Not an answer but I lived very comfortably with 650 watts on my last coach (not electric dependent). However; my current coach is VERY electricity hungry (residential refrigerator, induction cooktop, no propane, etc.) and that is a different game (requires much more power).

Originally Posted by msearslive

Having a generator has become more and more of an option that I feel we need to consider

What is your lifestyle, your mission, and where will you be? If you are in the deep south in July, having a generator to run your air conditioning all day and all night might be a requirement. If you can travel with the weather, you might not even need A/C. You don't have to decide on a generator right now - or even if you need more battery/solar. Get it livable and then go live in it. You will learn very quickly what is needed. Overbuilding is a common problem in all projects like this. That said, tossing a small 2k-3k watt inverter generator in as a backup is mighty easy. Permanently installing a 12kW diesel generator is a much bigger decision and commitment.

[msearslive]

JD:

Thanks again for all these answers. The only response I think at this point I'd have would be for your last paragraph. My guess is that it was more or less a rhetorical question, but as much as I tell myself I hate people and that they're genuinely dumb (I know, I know, I'm quite the peach, right?), I actually do love conversation and I LOVE learning things. I love interacting with people (just not dumb ones). Heh.

My goal (OUR goal really, my partner Carolyn and I) is to change our lifestyle drastically. I could delve into it all, but the point is simply that the life we are all conditioned from birth to live is actually REALLY depressing if you step back and look at the bigger picture. It's the literal dictionary meaning and translation of being depressed. We're in our 30s, and while most would chuckle at us and say we're still so young .... are we? Really though. Are we? Because it wasn't/isn't about age necessarily. To us it became about the fact we realized we were working our small business we owned cleaning post new construction projects and windows, and we were becoming quite successful in the eyes of our local community and as 'society' would view it. But we weren't happy at all. All these THINGS and all this STUFF ... blah. To us, it just wasn't worth the amount of time we spent working all the time.

Being happy to us is about LIVING. And working and slaving your life away as we're (again) conditioned to do from birth (work your butt off now, play when you're retired - IF my generation will ever actually even be able to retire) just became an option that just wasn't - well - an option anymore. I don't mean to be melodramtic at all, but there is so much more to life than working 8-10 hours a day to 'enjoy' 3 or 4 hours in the evening before you go to sleep just to wake up and do it all again. Bump that.

I digress. (Shocker.)

We want our lifestyles to be one of meaning. We want OUT of all of this stereo-typical lifestyle of craziness. We live in a world of darn near pure insanity doing the same thing day in and day out expecting to be happy when we wake up the next day. Expecting to be fulfilled when we reach a milestone or achieve something we were striving for. And it ALL centered around ... MONEY. We live, we breath, we eat, we sleep, we work, we save, we spend ... money. I looked around me (so to speak) and realized NOPE! This isn't me. Not anymore. This isn't what I want. It might seem super dramatic or whatnot, but what IF I did die tomorrow. Oh my, I'd be pretty disappointed with myself overall. Especially if I kept doing what I was doing, living how I was living KNOWING I wasn't happy anymore doing it but continuing to do it ... 'just because'.

I digress again ... Lifestyle: Simplicity. Minimalism. Be happier with less materialistic show THINGS and trade it for MEMORIES and EXPERIENCES which are irreplacable and absolutely invaluable.

As far as Mission: When we take off in May (if all goes as planned) - we want to pull out of the driveway in our little ol' short bus on that last day and just drive somewhere. Not necessarily planned or mapped out much - very vaguely and aimlessly go somewhere. We are hoping to stop for several days at a time. (I ain't trying to be on the road all the time every day.) Explore the heck out of whatever location we've come to, and then take off and do it again somewhere else. Again, nowhere in particular. Hopefully places that aren't grossly populated. We don't want to go see big cities and such. While there are certainly amazing sites and places to see undoubtedly - anyone knows that - but we want to see nature. Hiking, biking, kayaking, roller blading, anything you can manage to think of outdoors. We'd like to do alot of this concept of boondocking.

We don't intend to be in the bus other than to commute and sleep unless it's inclement weather. We live in Iowa and my goal is to never see a real life, falling snowflake as long as I live unless it's a picture. And then I can point, laugh, scream "Suckerrrr!" And then move on about my day. :P I hate the cold and I've been in it for some 15 years now. I. Loathe. Winter! Haha. We don't like the cold. And so with "Wilson" we are hoping to get out there and just live life warmer climates year-round.

Unfortunately, unless we win the lottery or something we will have to work here and there. I still have my LLC registered and so we are going to clean windows when we need to earn some of that good ol' money that sadly is a must-have to survive - even in the simple lifestyle we want to lead moving forward. We started a business that was nothing more than a thought, and in three years turned it into a machine that was bringing in $170k at it's highest point before I folded it. That said, if hard work, tenacity, and the drive to make it happen worked out for us the first time - chances are that we can do it again to make the money that we will need to pay for Food, Fuel, and Fun! (I've entertained the idea of dabbling in writing or something, but that's a completely different conversation.) We don't have an exact figure of what we'll need every month, but we have saving built up of course to take advantage of while we get a better idea of what we'll be needing to cover the very minimal expenses we'll have beginning in May.

Lots and lots of warm places. I don't know if it was you, or someone else, but someone somewhere here mentioned about chasing appropriate weather. Though I won't complain about heat versus cold, I think the only real planning we'll do is checking the weather forecast and making sure we aren't going to end up at a location when the weather turns a bit undesirable - whether that's bad storms, or just blazing hot heat. It is inevitable of course that we'll experience it more than a time or two, but the goal is to be out there exploring.

With ALLLL that said, we'll likely look into a generator just in case we do get too hot and really need the AC. Otherwise, I'm thinking we'll try to use a rooftop fan and have the windows cracked or pulled down. We are making exterior screens to put up over the windows to allow us to do that awhile trying to avoid any unwanted insect visitors. Ew, I say, EW!

I can certainly appreciate the statement you made about not worrying so much about having everything we need before we take off, but I have control issues and I'd rather be prepared than to have the miss give me the "I effing told you" look - and keeping her comfortable mean she's happy. And how does that go? .... Happy wife happy life?


*Michael

[Robin97396]

You've certainly got some writing skill. That's such a low overhead way to make money that it seems like a natural for anyone that's mobile.

Solid thinking on your part all the way through. Yes this is a long winded thread. No we don't expect to be thanked individually, but that's nice.

Very interesting. You certainly do like to write.

[msearslive]

I know it! I'm so sorry about that, heh. I would imagine some folks see these posts and just zip by it because it's soooo long. I should work on that. I think part of it is honestly I'm super excited about this process and moving forward and trying to get the stressful part out of the way (electrical).

This one is short though! #promise

I looked into the solar controller that JD mentions and uses. Jeepers! After reading the links that were posted in that thread and using the formula to figure out what we will potentially need; I came up with either a 60 or an 80 solar controller. So I googled it and it says it's over $500 for the one we'd ideally need if I do get a total of four 200w solar panels and three of the LiFePO4 batteries.

It is what it is though. It's all an investment. I'll need to be shopping around over the next few days to see if I can penny-pinch and find a good deal. (Wait, can you even say the words "penny-pinch" and $500 in the same conversation??)

[Robin97396]

The length of your posts are not a problem. It touches all the bases.
I also have energy issues. Just a small generator so far. I'd like a charge controller that can take energy from any power source and make it right for the batteries. I'm not sold on the idea that I need 110 volt, so that simplifies things some.

It's good hearing your information collection here reinforcing what I learned.

Keep it up. Write to your hearts content.

[msearslive]

Hey if you need a solar controller you are more than welcome to have this one I bought a couple months back. It's brand new - never been used. Unfortunately, I've now learned today that I can't use it with the lithium batteries I have. It'll sit and go to waste. So if you need one just let me know! It's a 40amp MPPT controller. Check the pic out somewhere in my posts above!

[Robin97396]

Thank you, that's a very kind offer. I think you should probably resell that item.
I've avoided solar so far because of the low hanging limbs on the backroads I frequent. If I make it down to AZ or other old folks retirement states I'll be wanting solar.
This bus is a fishing shack and I'm keeping it simple. Trying to figure out how to power my freezerator. Since that only needs to run for an hour or so per day it could run of the geny, or possibly a feed from the alternator run through a small convertor just big enough to sustain the freezerator?
Still trying to keep it simple.

[JDOnTheGo]

Good stuff Michael! I'm with Robin - a general thanks is plenty. Sometimes people never respond to the thread in which they asked for help and that is a little annoying. Not so much for the thanks but just to hear that progress was made.

You won't likely find anyone here arguing with your thoughts and ideas about life. Pretty common thinking here.

I should have been clearer when I said 'mission.' I was thinking your goals for your home in terms of how you plan to use it and what 'comforts' you expect from it. Some folks are happy with a sleeping pad/bag and one little LED light - they don't need much for an electrical system to be really comfortable. Others (like me) have very high expectations/demands which translates into more complicated systems. There is nothing wrong with either - it's simply a matter of what YOU want. If you haven't lived the life, it can be difficult to imagine what is needed and what is 'nice'. I'm not one of those people that needs hot water every day (The Wonders of a Cold Shower - JdFinley.com) - others could not imagine life without it. Again, nothing wrong with either approach but it does affect the systems.

Location is another big one. Some of us could not imagine being in a hot/humid (or cold) climate - we travel to wherever it is comfortable. However; some folks can't do that (for whatever reason) and planning a home to deal with those conditions is totally ok.

Solar power vs generator is an oft-discussed item. Some folks are happy with a generator, some are not (me). I did some comparison of the costs a couple years ago in this post (Payback of a Solar Charging System - JdFinley.com) - for me and my mission/lifestyle, it is a no-brainer. Comparing the long term costs of the two approaches might make you feel a whole lot better about the cost of quality solar components!

The topic of system voltage can be a confusing one so I apologize for making things harder. However; I am guessing this is what you might be bumping into right now. In the case of the MorningStar TS-MPPT charge controller, it's maximum output is measured in amps but not voltage. The TS-MPPT-60 will output a maximum of 60 amps at whatever the charging voltage is set. This could be 60 amps at 14 volts (roughly 840 watts) or 60 amps at 28 volts (roughly 1680 watts) - similar for the 45 amp model. This is one of the reasons I went with a 24 volt battery bank. It allows me to connect 1740 watts of panels to a 60 amp charge controller. If I had went with a 12 volt system, I would have been limited to much less output power OR would have needed two networked charge controllers (and they are not cheap, as you have found). Now I fully admit that a 24 volt battery bank creates other issues - such as needing DC to DC step-down converters for devices that require 12 volts. So, no free lunch.

Happy wife happy life?

I have no experience with that. However; I can attest that an UNhappy wife makes for a VERY unhappy life. So, please do keep the happy part a priority!!

If you look into generators - PLEEAAASSEEEE skip past the open frame/construction site versions. They are nice and inexpensive but they are LOUD!! I've seen lots of folks that don't mind running these things all day long but for us within about two miles of them - it is horrible (noise). The closed frame, inverter-generators are much quieter and are able to throttle down and still provide the necessary power.

[msearslive]

Morning, JD!

Oh my goodness. I'm slightly embarrassed in that I certainly did misinterpret your question on "Mission" entirely. I went on this whole sentimental, philosophical rant and that's not even what you meant! Hahaha. Oh well, I laughed it off.

You are so so SO right. We are not living in the bus yet. We've never done this. And so I do often find myself becoming overwhelmed because I play out soooo many "what it" scenarios in my mind trying to "beat" them before they can even arise. I would imagine this is typical for many of us who are brand new to this while we are prepping and gearing up during our build processes.

My most significant concern is this whole electrical side of things. Making sure we don't take off on May 1st and by, say, May 3rd we realize we don't have the power we need to use the equipment we want. Unfortunately, when I started adding up receipts last night I was in slight shock at the amount of money I've dropped into all thing electrical for the bus at this point. I hadn't expected to cross $5k with the entire build - much less alone in electrical. But, at the end of the day I like to consider this an investment for the long run.

As I posted in another thread; I require very, very little 'things.' But when there's two people there are compromises that have to be made. I'd be happy with a standard ol' charcoal/wood-chip grill and a solar oven. I'd also rather take a warm'ish shower in the sun with just a little curtain drawn and a makeshift platform I can stand on to avoid muddying up my feet while I shower. (It's not like we intend to be in big cities where that'd be a no-no. We're going to be (ideally) out 'boondocking' and out in open spaces with little-to-nobody around.

I am going to read your post next on your cold showers. I can tell you now that it does seem hellishly unpleasant to take a cold shower. (Also I have an aversion to cold showers as this was a means of punishment for me when I was child - having to stand in the tub with cold water blasting on me. Man I hated that!!! I survived though, haha!)

If we do go with a generator it will certainly be researched well and I would like to find one of the quietest available. Many years ago now, I worked (for a few days, bahahaha) on a construction site as labor person, and the honest to goodness fact is that I couldn't handle the sound of a generator. Enjoyed the work itself - hated the noise level. I couldn't even think. People were quite literally yelling at each other to communicate. And that's why I shut down the idea of a generator from the get-go. Now that I've learned there are much quieter versions; I'm open to at least check them out. I've been watching some videos.

The only reason I'm even considering a generator at all is if we did end up needing an air condition, and if we end up using this water heater shower head that is 2500w. If the bus is just sweltering inside. I won't know until we try it. I hate not being prepared if it's possible, so I am just torn trying to determine if I should make a space and have it ready in advance so that if we do need one I can just easily pop one in. But there is so much more to it than that. The dimensions, location, etc.

A part of me wishes I'd kept the original air conditioner in it because it worked just fine, but it seemed massive. It did require the bus to be running which I also didn't really like the idea of. There were leaks as well around where it was installed and sitting which I imagine I could have easily recaulked or sealed or whatever you'd do. But I jumped the gun there in excitement and just wanted to demo and rip stuff out because it's almost immediate gratification in that visible progress was being made. Whoopsie!

[msearslive]

Robin, what type of fridge/freezer do you have? We've got 'round-and-'round on this subject; and it seems like just such a massive energy consuming item - like an air conditioner. That's why I've been trying to avoid having one in the bus all together.

It may end up being something I wish I'd have installed from the beginning, but after going through my refrigerator and looking over items that I keep in there - the two regular items are left-overs we're saving for another day - and milk. Living in a house with the convenience of a fridge - I tend to gobble up milk by the gallon. I could easily drink a gallon of milk a day without any real effort. (I have a thyroid issue which causes my metabolism to be absolutely sky high and so milk gives me tons of calories to keep me energized and not look, well, like I'm a starved person, hehe.) But, I'm willing to make that sacrifice and figure out a new approach to caloric intake. Other than that though I personally don't require a fridge.

[Twigg]

Originally Posted by msearslive

Robin, what type of fridge/freezer do you have? We've got 'round-and-'round on this subject; and it seems like just such a massive energy consuming item - like an air conditioner. That's why I've been trying to avoid having one in the bus all together.

It may end up being something I wish I'd have installed from the beginning, but after going through my refrigerator and looking over items that I keep in there - the two regular items are left-overs we're saving for another day - and milk. Living in a house with the convenience of a fridge - I tend to gobble up milk by the gallon. I could easily drink a gallon of milk a day without any real effort. (I have a thyroid issue which causes my metabolism to be absolutely sky high and so milk gives me tons of calories to keep me energized and not look, well, like I'm a starved person, hehe.) But, I'm willing to make that sacrifice and figure out a new approach to caloric intake. Other than that though I personally don't require a fridge.

So modern fridges in the 10 cu ft range consume around 65 Amp Hours per 24-hour period.

Just add it to the energy audit. It will be the biggest single power-draw, but nothing you can't deal with with a decent battery bank. There are even ways to reduce that consumption if you are pushed. Probably as low as 40 Ah without getting horribly expensive.

[Robin97396]

I like listening to you an JD because you both write so clearly. Yes, against my own advice, thank you both for that.
Also, unhappy wife makes for a single older man fairly quickly. Divorces are expensive because they are WORTH IT!
I also went through that what if phase. I decided I needed to live in the bus to get realistic about what I really needed, versus what I thought I needed. The first winter was without insulation, which has a sharp learning curve. Doesn’t take much time to come around to knowing you need insulation. You need an umbrella indoors just to read without the disturbing drip, drip, drip of condensation.
I'd have a hard time pinning down the specifics of my fridge. It's a fairly small apartment model about 5' tall that someone wanted $20 for about 20 years ago and seems to be very efficient. It actually sits outside in the rain now, still working just fine. During cold weather my produce freezes solid if it's in that fridge. While this fridge was in my bus the door would occasionally come unlatched and the contents would be spread everywhere, so now that fridge has to stay outside.
I'm aiming at getting a small chest freezer so I can make it into a freezerator. I've already got the thermostatic controller but I haven't researched the chest freezers yet. I’m told they only need power for about an hour per day. The more thermal mass you have in your fridge the better it maintains a steady temperature.
I was also a heavy milk drinker. Now you're more likely to find a 5 lb block of sharp chedder in my fridge. Cheese, lots of produce and a little meat. Store bought meat tastes like the feed they give the animals, just like planter trout taste like cornmeal.
I'd take that cold shower punishment. I had a logger step-dad that would beat me until he fell down from fatigue. Humph, childhood. I made different mistakes with my kids. I spanked one of my kids real good when she tried to drown her sister in the bathtub.
I'll admit I can take a cold shower, but there's usually a hot shower nearby to step back and forth into, like at the gym.
Concerning those loud generators, if you can get a motorcycle muffler and attach it to those loud generators you'll be pleasantly surprised. It’ll sound like a motorcycle running, nearly. That method is used on large chainsaws in this area.
It hurts a lot of us on this site to see anyone tear out a factory AC system. Yes they are in the way during a build, but apparently you can swap out some of the klunky components when the opportunity arises later.
Three inches of new snow this morning. Good times. I bought tire chains a couple weeks ago and now I’m starting to think I might be psychic.

[msearslive]

Robin:

I love what I feel is your sense of humor. I definitely pictured stuff falling out of your fridge just rolling around everywhere. And then I picture you "grounding" your fridge to the outside. Oh geez! That's funny stuff!

I totally agree with the happy wife happy life. Carolyn and I aren't married yet, but I can speak, sadly, from experience. I'll be 35 in a couple weeks and as terrible as it sounds, hehe, I've been married and divorced now twice! Can you believe that?! I had no business being married either of those times and I was in a some deep learning phases at those points as well. I have a good soul, but I certainly was not great husband material. And that is something I certainly accept blame for where I need to. As they say, "It take two to tango." LUCKILY and thank goodness, I have a super duper awesome woman in my life now who is pretty incredible. We our times like all people do, but I think I might beat the "bad husband" rap next time around. :P I better be because as you stated, Divorces are EXPENSIVE! And yes, worth it at least in my first two epic failures. Bahaha.

Childhood ... what can we say or do? Just learn from I suppose. Know we aren't dead because of it ... and know that we're all pretty resilient if we can find it in ourselves to be better and do better. That's my train of thought - though admittedly it's much easier said than done. Takes time - and lots of it sometimes. Heh.

My goodness! You lived in your bus in the WINTER with NO insulation?! You're hardcore. You have me flat out beat hand over fist. I couldn't do it.

And on the air conditioner ... I really do kind of kick myself because it was already there ya know?!?! Should've built around it. That thing was a beast but regardless of how old it was (and I imagine it was original to the bus); it seemed to blow some seriously cold air. Ultimately, I didn't like the fact that it was leaking everywhere, and it was a real bummer that the bus had to be running in order to use it. With that said, however, "Wilson"' is a diesel and letting it run and idle is no nevermind on the fuel consumption. When I've been in it on super cold days with a space heater and let the engine run and used the cabin vents up front to blow what hot air it could - I never did see much fuel used even if I ran it for a couple hours. No lie.

Ah snow. .... that four letter word. Man, ugh. Momma taught me not to say bad words so I try not cuss - and snow is a cuss word to me. :P Ours is melting here finally. Had a few pretty warm days and for the next week I believe we're forecast to be in the upper 30's and low-to-mid 40s so I'll take it!!

Good luck with the sssssssssss....white stuff you just got. I can't say it. I can't. See ya on the forums!