Getting started - Buying a Bus

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Grinn and Bare it

I see what you mean. I'm finding myself looking on Craigslist in other states for better prices. Down here most people (dealers) want $8K if not more. However, I did see a bus on Letgo for $3200 asking. With your logic, I'll use the bus or at least have it to start my conversion and what for the tranny to blow. Then get a rebuilt MT643. Is $2000 just for the engine or installed??

I think you mean the transmission, and i believe that was installed.


An engine rebuild will be considerably more, even if you do it yourself. At some point (with an engine) it comes down to a cost-analysis. Does it make sense to rework an engine for another 250K miles of life (more for big trucks), or find another vehicle with plenty of life left in it? With that question comes the nature of the vehicle - a specialty rig such as a concrete pumper (even used ones are *VERY* expensive) that is otherwise in good shape, an engine rebuild makes good financial sense. For a road tractor, it could go either way, depending on the condition of the rest of the vehicle (they tend to hold their value better and the used market is plentiful). For a retired school bus, which are readily available on the auctions for cheap, perhaps not so much (this will change once you've painted it and converted it).


So if you're in the shopping phase, or not far into conversion and the engine takes a puke, it might make more sense to find another bus rather than sink $8-10K into an engine rebuild (that's having a shop do it), unless the bus you found is a unicorn in some way.

[Grinn and Bare it]

I understand what you mean. That's why I'm trying to carefully pick the right combo of all things combined to hopefully have a bus that lasts well passed the conversion. But if I'm too far into the project and it goes to the afterlife, I guess I could use it as a stationary home, buy another bus and rent that one out with airB&B! LOL I'll keep my fingers crossed that I make the most educated decision on my conversion basics.


Thank you much for your input!

[o1marc]

Wow lots of replies to your question to me. As I understand it , the DT466E actually came out in 1994, the Maxxforce DT came out in 07. So the DT, or the DT-E through 03 are desirable motors.

[Grinn and Bare it]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Wow lots of replies to your question to me. As I understand it , the DT466E actually came out in 1994, the Maxxforce DT came out in 07. So the DT, or the DT-E through 03 are desirable motors.

Thanks Marc, So now that I understand the 466 saga, here's another question for you. What's up with the T444e?

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Grinn and Bare it

New question, What does MT stand for? Is this a different manufacturer or still Allison?

AT545 Auto/Truck, MT643 Medium truck, HT Heavy Truck. MD 3060 Medium Duty. All designations for Allison transmissions

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by Grinn and Bare it

Thanks Marc, So now that I understand the 466 saga, here's another question for you. What's up with the T444e?

It's a V-8, I've not heard good things about it, but have no experience, I believe in these buses, a straight 6 is the only way to go for max torque.

[Grinn and Bare it]

Originally Posted by o1marc

It's a V-8, I've not heard good things about it, but have no experience, I believe in these buses, a straight 6 is the only way to go for max torque.

Just as I suspected!! In-Line 6 it is!! Just have to find the right combo drive train at a reasonable price, little to no rust and I'm good to go. LOL

[johnbloem1974]

Just to update, I paid a few thousand for my MT643, but I was in a hurry and didn't have a chance to shop around...
LKQ Trucks has some rebuilt MT 643's for under $1000, can't remember which location, but as soon as I find it I'll let you know...

John

[Grinn and Bare it]

Originally Posted by johnbloem1974

Just to update, I paid a few thousand for my MT643, but I was in a hurry and didn't have a chance to shop around...
LKQ Trucks has some rebuilt MT 643's for under $1000, can't remember which location, but as soon as I find it I'll let you know...

Thanks John!


I appreciate ya!

[johnbloem1974]

Found it from another post from another user...

LKQ Heavy Truck in Marshfield, MO

https://www.lkqcorp.com/location/lkq...ck-marshfield/

Mr4bttahoe just got one recently, and Cadillackid is VERY knowledgeable with all things Allison transmissions...

John

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Grinn and Bare it

Thanks Marc, So now that I understand the 466 saga, here's another question for you. What's up with the T444e?

I have one. It's almost identical to the Ford 7.3 (which in fact is an IH built engine) with only a couple minor differences. They're not known for being terribly powerful and as such serve better in "shorties" than full length buses, but they are pretty rock solid engines with outstanding parts and service availability. Nearly every Big Box store sells parts for the 7.3 and 95% of those will fit the T444e.


Common failures of these engines are glow relays (Fairly easy and inexpensive), injectors wear out between 150-200K miles (can lead to difficult starting. Good replacements are about $200 each and there's 8 of them, replacing the valve cover gaskets and associated wiring harness is usually considered part of the job since they degrade with age). They do *NOT* like being run hot and many come with "half" radiators (as mine did) and fan clutches do wear out (another relatively simple, not-too-expensive fix). Many have an EGBPV (Exhaust Gas Back Pressure Valve, or something like that), which basically holds the turbo wastegate partly closed; it's intended to help the engine warm up faster, some have adapted it as an engine brake of sorts. Occasionally this fails but again, it's not a major fix.


Basically, as long as you don't mind an engine that won't ascend any long grades very fast and don't plan on much towing with, you won't go wrong with a T444e. Properly cared for, they are known for surpassing 500K miles.

[Grinn and Bare it]

Originally Posted by johnbloem1974

Found it from another post from another user...

LKQ Heavy Truck in Marshfield, MO

https://www.lkqcorp.com/location/lkq...ck-marshfield/

Mr4bttahoe just got one recently, and Cadillackid is VERY knowledgeable with all things Allison transmissions...

John

Thanks for that John!!

[Grinn and Bare it]

Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur

Common failures of these engines are glow relays (Fairly easy and inexpensive), injectors wear out between 150-200K miles (can lead to difficult starting. Good replacements are about $200 each and there's 8 of them, replacing the valve cover gaskets and associated wiring harness is usually considered part of the job since they degrade with age). They do *NOT* like being run hot and many come with "half" radiators (as mine did) and fan clutches do wear out (another relatively simple, not-too-expensive fix). Many have an EGBPV (Exhaust Gas Back Pressure Valve, or something like that), which basically holds the turbo wastegate partly closed; it's intended to help the engine warm up faster, some have adapted it as an engine brake of sorts. Occasionally this fails but again, it's not a major fix.

I've heard enough Brad! LOL I'm convinced that T444e and me are not a good match!! LOL I appreciate your input!! I really do. But all those little things scare me. I'm hoping that once I buy a bus and I have my mechanic cousin give it the once over, I don't want to be worried about little things like that. I'll have tons on my plate with the conversion. And for that trick, I'll need complete silence from the audience!! LOL

[Brad_SwiftFur]

Originally Posted by Grinn and Bare it

I've heard enough Brad! LOL I'm convinced that T444e and me are not a good match!! LOL I appreciate your input!! I really do. But all those little things scare me. I'm hoping that once I buy a bus and I have my mechanic cousin give it the once over, I don't want to be worried about little things like that. I'll have tons on my plate with the conversion. And for that trick, I'll need complete silence from the audience!! LOL

These are little things, sure, but keep in mind, *I bought one anyway*, and I've had it a couple years now with *Zero* issues. All I've done with mine so far is replace the batteries (which were of questionable age and condition when I got it from the school district), and begin replacing the incandescent lights to LED's. Plenty of members here have have the T444's and had little, if any, trouble with them.

To say it's not a good match, based on power, torque, intended use, etc., sure, fair enough. To say so based on the minor issues they eventually have over time, I respectfully disagree.


*EDIT* That's not entirely true, but for this discussion I'm not talking about paint & body work, seat and lettering removal, and things not engine related.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Wow lots of replies to your question to me. As I understand it , the DT466E actually came out in 1994, the Maxxforce DT came out in 07. So the DT, or the DT-E through 03 are desirable motors.

You won't find a DT466 "E" in buses much before 97.

[ermracing]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

You won't find a DT466 "E" in buses much before 97.

Another plug for the DT466 engines is the ability to be rebuilt in the bus. They are wet sleeve engines so you buy a kit that includes bearings, gaskets, sleeves, pistons, rings, etc. and do the work while the block stays in the bus. Certainly easier on a dog-nosed bus than a FE. I think either the Cummins or one of the Cat engines can be 'serviced' in-frame as well, but I can't remember which one.

[WIbluebird]

Originally Posted by ermracing

Another plug for the DT466 engines is the ability to be rebuilt in the bus. They are wet sleeve engines so you buy a kit that includes bearings, gaskets, sleeves, pistons, rings, etc. and do the work while the block stays in the bus. Certainly easier on a dog-nosed bus than a FE. I think either the Cummins or one of the Cat engines can be 'serviced' in-frame as well, but I can't remember which one.

Cummins ISC is also a wet sleeve engine. The little brother 5.9 isn't. Not sure about the Cats.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by ermracing

Another plug for the DT466 engines is the ability to be rebuilt in the bus. They are wet sleeve engines so you buy a kit that includes bearings, gaskets, sleeves, pistons, rings, etc. and do the work while the block stays in the bus. Certainly easier on a dog-nosed bus than a FE. I think either the Cummins or one of the Cat engines can be 'serviced' in-frame as well, but I can't remember which one.

Cat medium duty engines and the cummins 5.9 are parent bore.
FWIW they're MUCH less picky about the coolant and don't have liner seals to go bad. Not saying parent bore is "better".
The achilles of many DT466E's is the inner and/or outer timing covers. They're not a good design and have a few updated part #s as a result. Its one of the worst jobs to do on these buses. THe navistar folks know all about it and its finally starting to become more well known in the public as more private owners have these issues.
My youtube video used to be about all I could find. Now there are several.
Not saying evrey DT466E is going to have the issues, but its worth noting. Worth seeing if a repair has ever been done. If it has it would make that bus much more valuable to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ATWXMoxZ_8&t=13s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHzEOXUeL8k

[WIbluebird]

You'd be amazed at all the issues like the DT466E timing cover issue that don't become widely known until the engines in question come out of fleet usage.

I've been hearing from a couple different sources now that the Cummins 8.3s with dual AC compressors can add stress to the front timing cover causing it to crack. I'm hoping to avoid this with mine by deleting the engine-driven AC and going to mini-splits or roof airs.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

You'd be amazed at all the issues like the DT466E timing cover issue that don't become widely known until the engines in question come out of fleet usage.

I've been hearing from a couple different sources now that the Cummins 8.3s with dual AC compressors can add stress to the front timing cover causing it to crack. I'm hoping to avoid this with mine by deleting the engine-driven AC and going to mini-splits or roof airs.

DT530's with ac have LOTS of timing cover cracking too!