ITS ROOF RAISE TIME: Am I A Green Light?

[Nick5272]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

And...don't spend the extra money on the more-expensive Chief brand 1/4-inch rivet gun at Harbor Freight. I have found that the cheaper (about $70) HF version works just as well, if you bump the air pressure up above 100psi, and they last longer. I've had 3 of the "better" Chief versions and while they will pull 1/4-inch rivets at their lower specified 90psi, all 3 have split vertically at the front of the handle...there appears to be a weakness in the casting design there.

And I also use the same 1/4-inch stainless steel closed end rivets, from Jay-Cee (rivetsonline.com), that Big Daddy Mac described. I get them in two different lengths, so I have some longer ones for multiple layers or re-installing rub rails.

That’s great to know. I went out and bought that rivet gun same day (for clearance even!). Haven’t used it yet but looking forward to it. Also thank you to you both for the resources on the rivets. I spoke with Luke from skoolie.com on the phone Monday and he let me know rivets are incredibly hard to source right now so not even they have any.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Nick5272

Does anyone have any recommendations on what/where to buy clecos?

I got mine on Amazon, in a kit like this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06VW3WWTD/

The kits include a pair of the special pliers which you also need to use the clecos (unless you're the Hulk, of course). You don't really need any clecos but the size for your rivets, but they're fun to have around just in case.

These gadgets are handy sometimes, too: https://www.amazon.com/USA-Fittings-...dp/B084Z447FX/ and also just plain fun to play with.

FYI they're called "clecos" because they were developed by the Cleveland Pneumatic Tool Company. Little shout out to my home town which isn't all bad.

[Nick5272]

Originally Posted by DeMac

Jay Cee Rivets is a popular source, use Stainless Steel, Closed End rivets. 3/16" where new, 1/4" where replacing & reusing the hole.


Pilot every hole, using an undersized bit. Increase the hole diameter by stepping up the bit size to ream the hole. This forms a perfectly round, deburred hole as the size is increased.


I typically use 5 bit sizes to complete each rivet hole (7/64", 1/8', 5/32", 3/16", #11). The 3/16" rivets are not 3/16, aka.1875". The 3/16" rivets are actually .1910". Be sure to order #11 bits. HD, Lowes & Ace do not carry machinists bits.


Apply (dip into) cutting oil onto the bits prior to every pass. I cant stress te oil enough, lube & piloting will enable a single set of bits to cut several hundred holes.


Buy and use clecos:
Clecos ensure every hole is aligned with eachother. Errors will be made, otherwise.


Drill each hole and immediately insert the cleco before drilling the next.


Disassemble, clean thoroughly, apply seam sealer to one side, reassemble with clecos, replace each cleco with a rivet.



Prior to inserting each rivet, I turned each rivet in seam sealer. See Musigenesis's test of this method, I followed his lead.


insert/tap into hole, &
compress rivet, wipe excess sealant. Note the edge of the panel, a tiny bead of sealant, squeezed out by the completed rivet, as they're tighter than the clecos. No breaks or stopping, Dynatron dries quickly.



Please peruse the Roof Patch thread below, it's chock full of photos & tips to help you complete leak free seams & seals.

Have you watched RossVTaylor's Roof Raise videos?
YouTube@RollingLiving

Why do you use different sizes based on whether their new or reused?

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by Nick5272

Why do you use different sizes based on whether their new or reused?

Based on:
•centering the hole, bit wander
•quantity of material being removed
•expense of small vs large bits
•hole roundness vs bit shaped
•no broken/dull bits.
(bits can last forever)

Create a pilot hole using a small bit to remove a small amount of material, the bit's smaller leading edge penetrates quickly & produces less friction heat.

We are actually drilling only the first hole. The larger (more costly) bits are simply reaming the hole to become larger. Each bit, removes only a small amount of material, preserving the cutting edge. Both surfaces remains cool. Not warm, cool to the cheek.

The amount of material being removed, each time the blade passes, is directly proportional to the friction (heat) produced. Saw, chisel, drill.... friction dulls blades. Speed kills.

Also use cutting oil for each & every pass so you only buy a the bits once. (Cobalt)

To ruin a bit on its first use:
Set drill speed to high and apply forced pressure to the drill.
....she gone

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by Nick5272

Yes, you are right as another commenter pointed out, what I meant was 17/64 drill bit.

And the set of deburring bits: ordered! Will get some sealant soon as well as the clecos. Does anyone have any recommendations on what/where to buy clecos?

---------------------


The manufacturer specs, for the quarter inch rivets you linked in this thread:1-4-or-3-16-rivets-for-skinning, recommends using a .2570 bit, size (F) drill bit. A 17/64" (.2656) is two sizes, too large.



For clecos & bits, Amazon.
DO buy American made. The alloys & steel are superior.

Size F Cobalt bit:
www.amazon.com/TopLine-Drill-Bits-Size-Cobalt/size-F

1/4" Clecos:
www.amazon.com/Each-Cleco-Fasteners-Pouch-Drill
(you'll love 'em)

The cleco plyers ($9ish) Musigenesis mentioned, are a must.

We want the rivet to fit tightly in the hole. If it drops right in, the hole is oversized.

I use a standard size 3/16" (.1875) drill bit to assemble the sheets with 3/16" clecos. As I remove each cleco, I ream a single hole (through all layers) to its finish size of .1910 (#11) then install a rivet, before continuing to the next. This ensures that the holes in each of the layered pieces are aligned & centered with one another.

A small ball peen hammer is helpful to tap some rivets through the layers.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by DeMac

The manufacturer specs, for the quarter inch rivets you linked in this thread:1-4-or-3-16-rivets-for-skinning, recommends using a .2570 bit, size (F) drill bit.

I actually bought a whole pack of 20 F bits for use with my 1/4" rivets and then discovered that all of my 1/4" rivets (from Jay Cee Rivets) were actually 0.26" and the F bits didn't work. I now have 20 high quality F bits buried in my shed somewhere.

[Nick5272]

Originally Posted by DeMac

---------------------


The manufacturer specs, for the quarter inch rivets you linked in this thread:1-4-or-3-16-rivets-for-skinning, recommends using a .2570 bit, size (F) drill bit. A 17/64" (.2656) is two sizes, too large.



For clecos & bits, Amazon.
DO buy American made. The alloys & steel are superior.

Size F Cobalt bit:
www.amazon.com/TopLine-Drill-Bits-Size-Cobalt/size-F

1/4" Clecos:
www.amazon.com/Each-Cleco-Fasteners-Pouch-Drill
(you'll love 'em)

The cleco plyers ($9ish) Musigenesis mentioned, are a must.

We want the rivet to fit tightly in the hole. If it drops right in, the hole is oversized.

I use a standard size 3/16" (.1875) drill bit to assemble the sheets with 3/16" clecos. As I remove each cleco, I ream a single hole (through all layers) to its finish size of .1910 (#11) then install a rivet, before continuing to the next. This ensures that the holes in each of the layered pieces are aligned & centered with one another.

A small ball peen hammer is helpful to tap some rivets through the layers.

Gosh man that is so helpful. Can’t tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to share all that. Very helpful. Will be buying those bits post haste!

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I actually bought a whole pack of 20 F bits for use with my 1/4" rivets and then discovered that all of my 1/4" rivets (from Jay Cee Rivets) were actually 0.26" and the F bits didn't work. I now have 20 high quality F bits buried in my shed somewhere.

--------------------
I was hoping someone would let me know the (F) bit did not work for them. I didn't expect it to be you, MG. Thank you bringing it up, though. Machinists' methods are not common knowledge. Sheetmetal & ductworkers may already know.

When drilling holes in sheet metal, the diameter of the hole is much larger than the thickness of the sheet. Regular twisted drill bits do not work well, primarily due to their rake angle. The typical result is a hole with a bizarre shape (definitively not round) and a rough edge. Rivets don't fit the shape.


An easy solution is to drill through a cloth with a regular drill bit, when reaming the finish size.

How to Make a Round Hole:
First mark the center position of the hole, center punch the surface to guide the drill bit at the beginning & prevent it from wandering sideways.

Next drill a small pilot hole to guide the next or final drill bit. (a normal drill bit will work well without extra precautions)
The diameter of the pilot hole should be slightly larger than the length of the Chizel Edge on the next bit.


When drilling the finish size, place a cloth between the bit and the metal. The pilot hole will help you positioning the drill bit, so just drill as usual. (<3000 rpm) The cloth prevents the drill bit from pulling into into the material, without the need of changing the rake angle.

Wiki tutorial:
https://www.wikihow.com/Drill-Steel

Rake Angle:
Standard metal drill bits have a rake angle around 60° and point angle of around 118°.
Special drill bits, suitable for sheet metal, do exist but are difficult to find. These usually have a rake angle of about to 90° and a point angle of about 90°. They're also great for drilling soft metals, such as brass & copper.

The .257 bits will work with JayCee's 1/4" rivets, if the holes are perfectly round & center aligned. .261 ought to be the maximum finish size, of the hole, after reaming/deburring.

Note:
Please bear in mind, I am not the manufacturer. Their engineer wrote JayCee rivet specs (attached below), not me. I just follow manufactures specifications.

[rossvtaylor]

I have not found the .009" difference in bit diameter (between a 17/64" and F bit) to be a factor. It's a tiny difference and, as Big Daddy Mac pointed out, the holes aren't really round anyway. I have bought the F bits from both Jay-Cee and our local supplier, but I can get 17/64 bits more cheaply...so that's what I use, personally. You high-precision guys are operating at aerospace levels, way above me.

[DeMac]

Jay Cee Rivet Specifications

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

I have not found the .009" difference in bit diameter (between a 17/64" and F bit) to be a factor. It's a tiny difference and, as Big Daddy Mac pointed out, the holes aren't really round anyway. I have bought the F bits from both Jay-Cee and our local supplier, but I can get 17/64 bits more cheaply...so that's what I use, personally. You high-precision guys are operating at aerospace levels, way above me.

----------------------
I also agree with both you & Musigenesis. We are each our own builder & should choose our level of detail. For me, it doesn't matter how it gets done, as long as its perfect. I only offer details, not disputing the degree of difference, resulting from each method. You both do great work & complete you projects.

The total tolerance specified is .004 (.257-.261) or +/- .002 so .009 is more than double the limit, fail. DUI arrest.

Just sayin', what's done is done, but for those who haven't ordered bits...
choose the one that fits.

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by DeMac

----------------------
I also agree with both you & Musigenesis. We are each our own builder & should choose our level of detail. For me, it doesn't matter how it gets done, as long as its perfect. I only offer details, not disputing the degree of difference, resulting from each method. You both do great work & complete you projects.

The total tolerance specified is .004 (.257-.261) or +/- .002 so .009 is more than double the limit, fail. DUI arrest.

Just sayin', what's done is done, but for those who haven't ordered bits...
choose the one that fits.

Oh gosh, I hope you don't think I was arguing or disputing you. I actually didn't know about this tolerance spec and you are right, we should use the bits specified. Thanks for this info!

[DeMac]

Nah. I know my level of detail is somewhat ridiculous. My version is usually overkill. The exact opposite of, "Just eyball it with a few self tappers" 😬.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

You high-precision guys are operating at aerospace levels

Yeah, aerospace circa 1908.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Hello DeMac, Does a shop rag work for being that cloth?

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins

Hello DeMac, Does a shop rag work for being that cloth?

I'm not DeMac, but I've done this too. I use something thin, like tee shirt material. Or, better yet, if you need a round hole use a step bit in thin material...then you don't need to mess with the cloth.

[incubus]

I bought pneumatic riveter from Harbor Freight. I hope it would last for one bus. I've done six with it and it's still going strong. Need to keep it oiled. Drill bit size I test drill and a piece of metal and fit the rivet. You want the snuggish hole you can get. I had a sheet metal company make hat metal that went around the existing hat metal. I put the pieces on with clamps raise the front an inch clamped it raised the back an inch clamped it. Slow go but kept everything Square. You're very wise to hire a welder I have taken the rivets out on the fiberglass caps on the front and back use the heated scraper to break the sealant, raise the roof up and slid metal in between the gap drilled and riveted in. Really was kind of quick and easy. Thomas though much harder to do. As far as talking goes I've used scaffold set up inside the bus . Cut pipe spacers for top of scaffold with wood 2x4's on top.used jack screws on bottom of scaffold to raise assisted with Jack's.Scaffold can be rented and they deliver it to you. Thin metal to cover windows can oil can(wrinkle) ,heat it with salamander heater as you go. Cools it pulls up tight. I prefer thicker galvalum metal ,doesnt rust. Good luck

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by incubus

Thomas though much harder to do.

Do please elaborate. I ask because that's the one I am raising.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

I'm not DeMac, but I've done this too. I use something thin, like tee shirt material. Or, better yet, if you need a round hole use a step bit in thin material...then you don't need to mess with the cloth.

I appreciate the advice, but I fear I would far too often overdrill. I was trying to make a quick reply to the thread, apparently that goes only to a specific reply.

[rossvtaylor]

Re: the Thomas buses being harder to raise. The angled/sloped portion on some Thomas bus does make it a bit more challenging...or at least it requires more thought and planning. While I don't find it a problem, and don't charge extra for Thomas roof raises, I have seen some add an extra $1000 to the roof raise cost for a Thomas.