ITS ROOF RAISE TIME: Am I A Green Light?

[TaliaDPerkins]

Thank you Ross.

[incubus]

Because the Thomas buses taper from the windows up to the roof it makes him more difficult to raise. Again I cut the Hat Channel at the midpoint of the window with a grinder. I use two sections of scaffold set up inside the boss one in the front one of the rear. I get the adjustable screw legs 16 total. This girl legs have swivel plates on the end I'm out 2x4s front to rear on each set. I raised the scaffold Jacks till snug on the roof cut the hot metal and use custom hat metal made for me by a ductwork company I raised the roof 8 in. Clamped the new hat metal in between the window post. Had to borrow lots of clamps when everything was raised I started welding the Hat Channel in. The difficulty comes in filling in the metal on the back corners in the front because of the taper in I made templates using heavy paper for the corners cut them out of steel and had them rolled drilled and installed. I use sealant on everything I put in. You have more questions I can give you my phone number so much easier to tell someone how to do it then write it all up

[Nick5272]

I’m having a hard time imagining how the cloth helps the drill bit? If I’m using the F cobalt bits Demac linked, are those fine to drill straight though or those need a cloth as well? Am I drilling through the cloth? Do I reuse the cloth until it’s all drilled through? What is the plan there? Thanks again

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by Nick5272

I’m having a hard time imagining how the cloth helps the drill bit? If I’m using the F cobalt bits Demac linked, are those fine to drill straight though or those need a cloth as well? Am I drilling through the cloth? Do I reuse the cloth until it’s all drilled through? What is the plan there? Thanks again

--------------------
It sounds more complex than it is, really. For me, learning (accepting) to take so many steps was the hardest part. 'Learning the hard way' did suck.

I only offer a better way, because others have helped my reluctant self, in the past.

Like most wise folks, I collect & keep perfectly good advice in my back pocket, even when I go the other route. Helps me identify when it's time to double back and go the longer, safer or more accurate path. That is, I often follow the map originally offered to me, by those who previously traveled both routes.

This is the path I follow:
Shortened & Pasted from Post #4:

Originally Posted by DeMac

Pilot every hole, using an undersized bit. Increase the hole diameter by stepping up the bit size to ream the hole. This forms a perfectly round, deburred hole as the size is increased.


I typically use 5 bit sizes to complete each rivet hole (7/64", 1/8', 5/32", 3/16", #11) for 3/16" rivets.

Nick5272, Maybe you use three bits:
1/8", 3/16", (F)


Apply (dip into) cutting oil onto the bits prior to every pass. I can not stress the oil enough, lube & piloting will enable a single set of bits to cut several hundred holes.

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Post #4, above is plenty on it's own, Post #24 provides even more information. It really is alot to absorb, using only our imagination.

The tutorial wikihow.com/Drill-Steel linked in #24, is a different method, often used on the final bit (aka the finish size) but also requires a pilot or possibly multiple bits, depending on the diameter of the hole.

Set aside some time to experiment on various thicknesses of scrap sheet metal, already removed from the bus.

Test out both methods. Several holes, spend some time practicing with cheap bits. You will better understand the written text when your hands are in the thick of it.


Nick, You won't be using self tapping screws and are clearly concerned with doing things correctly. You will NOT eff it up, I already have faith in your detail oriented brain. You got this.

[musigenesis]

@DeMac, I need to try out your progressively-larger-bits approach some time.

[Nick5272]

Hey, so follow up question, we’re removing the windows currently and have taken out all rivets relevant to the roof raise. The windows are coming off with the lower flange piece since it’s no longer riveted in. It’s only held by the sealant. My question is whether we need to try and leave that on or if it’s fine without. Here’s a pic of one on the left with the flange still attached just by its sealant and the right side without the flange. Our new skins will be inserted between the rub rail and the side of the bus so I’m thinking it’s not necessary to preserve the flange but I wanted to double check.

Pics: https://imgur.com/a/xRJPM69

[mmoore6856]

I left mine out when I did my raise

[mmoore6856]

I got a 98 Bluebird and skinned like you are planning

[Nick5272]

Hey everyone! Thanks again for all the feedback and help. I could not have done it without you. Luke at skoolie.com and Jonathan, the welder I hired, were instrumental as well.

The roof is currently raise and the hat channel extensions mostly welded in. We had to cut short because the neighbor complained we were being too loud (in his defense it was 9:30pm and I was using a chop saw on metal tubing lol). So Jonathan will have to come back out at some point to touch up the welds on the outer edges of the extensions and finish securing the square tubing on the front, back, and door of the bus. He used SMAW to weld everything. Then it’ll be onto skinning. Feel free to share any observations you see here or suggestions on what to do in the mean time.

As for the wiring harness, like Ross said earlier in the thread, there was more than enough to stretch another 12 inches. I did not have to splice in anything thankfully.

I used two 12 ton bottle jacks to raise the roof as well as four of the threaded rods many use. A woodworking friend of mine came over and helped me build a truss of sorts to stand atop the jacks. I busted my face on it more times than I’d like To admit running in and out of the bus lol. Also used a 20 ton Jack and a lot of wood scraps stacked like jenga to level the bus the best we could since it was parked at a slight incline. We began at 7am and finished around 10pm. I felt it the next day for sure. The biggest obstacle we faced was getting the roof completely detached. No matter how many times we felt we were done, there was some other bolt or rivet or weld that was holding the roof on. And the attachment points at all four corners and especially behind the front door hinge proved the most difficult. Of all the tools I used, only the oscillating multi tool would fit in those spots. And we underestimated how many of those blades we’d need. There were multiple runs to Harbor Freight made during the day. I also underestimated just how large the nuts were on the raise jacks. My wife was gracious enough to make a run for us and buy comically large crescent wrenches that made turning the bolts easy. Once the multitool cut deep enough into the four corners we were able to snake a thin metal cutting Sawzall blade back there which went fast than the other. A jigsaw occasionally helped. The angle grinder was essentially useless in those areas. I regretted now having one of the big 7” or 9” grinders. Eventually I’ll get one.

Midway through the raise the front door detached from its frame and fell over. Thankfully it was folded in so it just fell width wise across the threshold and rested on the hat channel. We plan on reusing the door so I’m thankful the windows did not shatter. However, it did scare the absolute crap out of Jonathan and I. That thing easily weighs 100 pounds and made quite the noise slamming down. I didn’t think about it holding on during the rise. I was paying too much attention to the hat channels!

I used a jig made of scrap plywood like the one in Chuck Cassady’s raise video to cut a perfect symmetrical line through the hat channels with a steel cerment blade in a circular saw. We used the crappy 16 gauge galvanized tubing I bought in another post to clamp all the channels and extensions into alignment for welding. We also of course used a ridiculous amount of clamps here as well. Is there any other way (;

I’m very pleased with how it turned out. All the rivet holes line up across the ends. All the channels are in plane together. There’s just a slight bit of welding left. While I wait for Jonathan to be available to come back out, I will be working on the door and the flasher deletes and the roof hatches. My only regret is that we had to cut the outer skin in two places to be able to get the back corners to release. I will probably weld or Bondo those later before paint. Hopefully they won’t be too noticeable. My other regret is that I ran out of time to cut the frames for the RV windows before the day arrived for the welding so I will have to do that when he comes back to finish the rest. Do I hate that that will waste a few hat channel extensions but it’s nobody’s fault but my own. Again that’s for all y’all’s help.

Here is an album of all the pics I took! : https://imgur.com/a/l97VdeL Take a look. Thanks again. I’m so proud I got that done.

When I first began looking at buses and realize a raise would be necessary, I nearly quit. Not a single part of me thought I’d be capable of accomplishing that. I’m so pleased to be at this point now. Couldn’t have done it without all. Very grateful for this community.

(Ps, I’ll post this as it’s own thread as well for those who don’t read this whole thread)

[Timeline]

Wow get'nr done! Looking good!

[Nick5272]

I am now to the skinning process. I know this was not ideal but the back panel was a b**** to get into place as it stretched from side to side and required bending (we don’t have a metal brake). Here’s some pics of what we did for that and what it looked like
Our first attempt hoping to not have to rig up a makeshift brake: https://imgur.com/a/PUM2j5x

We realized this failed to get a good bend so...
The makeshift brake: https://imgur.com/a/mNHqdrk

Then it became apparent that because of the flange on the back interior of the bus that it would not be feasible to drill from the inside out. I don’t have a right angle drill and had no interest in buying one for this. Drilling from the outside in was not an option since I was reusing the holes and was unable to see where I needed to drill. Although I didn’t want to, the only solution I could think of was self tappers (sorry Demac…). My solution was to use a right angle impact with a smaller #8 self tapper to grip the sheet metal to the side enough to hold it. Here’s pics: https://imgur.com/a/CrAu3rJ

This got quickly exhausting and would heat both the attachment and my impact to an alarming degree so I switched tactics. I started drill at a downward angle (since that’s all I could do) from the inside out with a 1/8” cobalt bit. I then went outside and used a larger self tapping #12 hex screw to go through the pre drilled hole and both layers to hold the metal. I repeated this process until most every hole was drilled and screwed. https://imgur.com/a/drgNkEQ

Next came taking the screw out and reaming with a 3/16” cobalt bit. This wasn’t hard since it was pretty much the same size as the #12 screw. My goal was to just get a better hole. Next thing was the F bit. This was and is a maddening process since both layers arent perfectly aligned. The bit kept snagging and I’d have to wiggle it around and back in and out repeatedly to finish the hole. After that came a cleco. I plan to repeated this process until the whole thing is cleco-ed.
https://imgur.com/a/RqK0eid

Here’s my thought tho. I started really craving a step bit that could step up to F size but can’t for the life of me find one. If you all know of one please point me towards it. Instead I settled for a 17/64 step bit even though it’s not the nicest or tightest hole for my rivets, enough people seemed to have success with that size so I’m willing to risk that. I ordered these: https://knkut.com/knkut-17-64-fracti...oint-drill-bit I’d love to hear you all’s thoughts on these or if anyone has experience with them. They’ll get here in 3 days. My hope for these is to use them in a single step to drill and the way through then deburr and cleco. Hopefully will go much faster since our bus is currently sitting in the elements with the plywood subfloor already down.


Here’s a pic of what I have been doing so far in terms of the steps. Please share critiques or suggestions or “punch ups” as my old creative writing teacher used to call them haha.
https://imgur.com/a/tUn3t3Q

In the future I’d like to apply seam sealer before clecos but I don’t think I’ll be able to on this panel. We’ll see. I’ll update on a few days.

Thanks everyone

[AlmostDone]

Awesome thread, thanks for sharing the details of your problem solving, and man, what a great community to provide so mich guidance in advance.
Hope things with finishing up the raise have gone well for you, Nick!
I'll be embarking on my own roof raise in about a week, better equipped now.

[Nick5272]

I’ll be honest y’all, this skinning is bumming me and my wife out hard. Just feels like it’ll never end. My rough estimate as of today is that there are approximately 1,300 rivet holes left to go which includes drilling out with multiple bits to the proper size, deburring, clecos, then sealant and rivets. I don’t know if I’m missing something or if it’s supposed to be taking this long but I’ve easily spent five to seven hours on one 8 ft skin. Am I missing something here?

[Nick5272]

https://imgur.com/a/ipwDmmi
There’s some pics for reference. Please let me know if there’s a simpler way to put the skins in because we’re so far behind on our time line. We desperately need to have the bus nearly done by December of 2023. We are moving to a Wanderlust Waypoint in August and will hopefully be able to work non stop on the bus there. But we may have to get part time jobs to support us during that. Still undecided.

This whole roof raise (and now the subfloor warping mentioned in another thread) has got me and my wife pretty defeated. We’re debating selling and trying to find a partial or full conversion. I just personally don’t trust the ones I see online and really want to build my own. Just having to really examine whether it’s feasible. I’d love all you guy’s input

[DeMac]

It's not uncommon to underestime the expense of time & materials. You are experiencing the difference between Theory & Hypothesis.

Seasoned, professional builders monitor times & maintain pricing records for comparison, in the same manner which Chefs, Realtors & Joggers calculate, record & compare each event. The factual data collected is used to estimate future ventures. Providing an Educated Guess.

Your Hypothesis was a bit off. Which is normal for a supposition or proposed explanation. Now that you have collected factual data, you can form a Theory. An estimate supported by evidence.


To Bear Witness:
Will tell Myself the Truth (& know it's true.)

To Bear False Witness:
Lying to Myself (maybe I guess correctly?)

Nick,
Just stay persistent and don't entertain quitting.

[incubus]

Buy lots and lots of drill bits. Also have small cup or container with oil in it and dip the drill bit before each hole. I take a small block of solid steel and drill through it on a drill press the size of the rivet Shank while still clamp down I drill a quarter inch in with the size of the rivet head. Place that over the rivet and you automatically drill through the center. Also make sure your drill bits are quality not Harry homeowner type. I also keep channel locks in my pocket to get the rivet heads off the drill bits. The floor warping, I paint my edges and bottom of the plywood I like with kiltz to seal it. Have to use poly based liquid nails to glue it,after all down I paint the top too.

[Flipmode]

Originally Posted by Nick5272

I’ll be honest y’all, this skinning is bumming me and my wife out hard. Just feels like it’ll never end. My rough estimate as of today is that there are approximately 1,300 rivet holes left to go which includes drilling out with multiple bits to the proper size, deburring, clecos, then sealant and rivets. I don’t know if I’m missing something or if it’s supposed to be taking this long but I’ve easily spent five to seven hours on one 8 ft skin. Am I missing something here?

Your experience is my consensus as well. When I did mine the initial roof raise was mostly done and welded in the first day. Not bad at all. From there it got tedious, I was only able to get one skin on a day, similar hours to you. Unfortunately it’s all in the detail and in the case of rivets, quantity. I’m sure there might be a way to cut corners but I think you’re still going to have substantial time and effort into this step. Be persistent and try not to let it be overwhelming. Your methodology seems good and it shows you are paying attention to the details. Doing anything for the first time will yield mistakes; I definitely made them when I did my raise but overall it came out well and I’m happy with the result. I think if you remain diligent in your effort and just focus on getting one sheet a day it’ll be more manageable and once you’re done you’ll be happy with it.

I see you are using self drilling screws in your process. I did as well. I also used Cleocos but found self tappers great for their temporary holding power and the convenience of not having to predrill. My Cleo’s kept getting caulking in the tips that would gum them up where as the self tappers I would use multiple times before I just threw them out. I’m not sure how much difficulty you’re having with maneuvering and lifting the sheets but I built a jig out of a 2x4 , eye bolts, and some angle that I could run a ratchet over the roof and winch the panels into place and hold without much effort and keep the panel flat. . I can probably dig up pictures in my old phone if you want.

[TaliaDPerkins]

"but I built a jig out of a 2x4 , eye bolts, and some angle that I could run a ratchet over the roof and winch the panels into place and hold without much effort and keep the panel flat. . I can probably dig up pictures in my old phone if you want."


Both pictures and just the bare concept.

[mmoore6856]

We drilled over 1,000 holes in our skin (16 gauge) and only used 3 bits (3/16) as I only buy cobalt bits

[Flipmode]

Originally Posted by TaliaDPerkins

"but I built a jig out of a 2x4 , eye bolts, and some angle that I could run a ratchet over the roof and winch the panels into place and hold without much effort and keep the panel I can probably dig up pictures in my old phone if you want."


Both pictures and just the bare concept.

Heres some pictures. The angle allows you to beat it into place without deforming the sheet metal.The limitation with this is it will allow the sheet to kick out at the bottom so you want to run it up with a ladder or scaffold sandwiching the sheet metal. I guess you can add 4ft vertical 2x4s in place of eye bolts to make it stable while lifting.I used 16 ga for my walls and I was able to do 10ft sheets solo.