Starting Woes on Cummins 5.9L (Battery Issue?)

[Elliot Naess]

I crank her over and push the accelerator pedal (something like) half way down at the same time. An instant later, I let go of both the key and the pedal, because the engine is now running.

This is in "normal" California weather -- 50 F and higher.
Recently, I started her in the early morning with 30-ish F, and she took a couple extra seconds to fire.

[saftyliner1997]

I'm sure you know that Revan that Cummins cold any of them is siriusware damage

[BamaBus]

If you have a fuel solenoid it should be located in the area of your primer just before the fuel pump. If you have one it may be controlled by a relay which could also be bad.

You primed the fuel line up to the filter but may need to go further. I recently had to replace a fuel line and needed to prime the fuel lines at the injectors. This may also let you know if the fuel pump is an issue. If you don't have an electric fuel solenoid shut-off and you are not getting fuel at the injectors then it may be your fuel filter or the pump.
How cold is where you are? Cold weather may be an issue. Also your new batteries need to have a good charge to spin the engine fast enough.
When you post the dash pic make sure that you get all of the controls not just your gages.

[Danielaurence]

Thanks again for all the tips. It's fairly cold where I am, but not consistently. It has typically been between 30-50 degrees F during the day. And my batteries are fully charged and putting out over 12 volts.

Haven't had a chance to look further for the solenoid or get a dash pic, but will try to get one today. I've got a friend who is a diesel mechanic who is going to have a look at it soon too.

[Booyah45828]

Mechanical shut offs were on the older busses. Newer model 6bt typically used an electric solenoid. It should be to the left of your picture, between the injection pump and the frame rail.

Some people have retrofitted mechanical cables onto the newer buses. I've seen some use an old mechanical choke cable designed for carburetors on older cars in this scenario too. Whatever you have to do to make it work.

The reason millicent wouldn't start with a return line leaking air was because the air, being lighter then fuel, would rise to the top of the system, which is the injection pump. Air in the injection pump causes it to not pump fuel and require a lot of cranking to work the air out. There should be a check valve on the pump to prevent this, but those typically don't seal either.

It doesn't hurt anything to give it some throttle while cranking on a diesel with a mechanical injection pump. I go half throttle when starting mine, and it even says to do it on the starting instruction placard above the driver's seat. Once it's running you release the throttle back to idle.

[Elliot Naess]

Millicent's push-pull cable for the fuel. I suppose I could have made or found a prettier knob, but I simply grabbed something handy and this has served flawlessly for a number of years.
The cable housing is bicycle brake cable housing

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

The cable housing is bicycle brake cable housing

That's a new one for me, and if it works, who cares what it looks like. Thanks for sharing.

[sportyrick]

There you go, "they had it running when you got there", it could be anything that they jury rigged just to get you home. What does it do if you give it a shot of starting fluid?

[Danielaurence]

Sorry for the long delay. Been really sick and haven't had a chance to mess with the bus for a bit. Here's some pictures of the dash area.

I haven't tried starting fluid yet, but I will give that a go.

My next step is to replace the fuel filter. When I bought the bus it had no cap on the fuel tank and I drove it about 100 miles like that, so a friend of mine suggested there could be water in the fuel. Hopefully it's not enough to require draining the tank, but it may come to that if the filter replacement doesn't help.

[BamaBus]

Water could be an issue but the filler neck is recessed a bit amd maybe a door covering it.
The T-handle between the ignition and the air brake control valve is what I use to shut the engine down after turning the switch off. Yours looks to be pulled out slightly due to the mounting hardware not connected or at least loose. That still may not be the issue but indicates to me that you do not have any electronic solenoid. Pull that handle while looking between your fuel filter and fuel pump to see what it may control. Have you been able to check for fuel at the injectors while cranking? It would be the very next thing that I would check.

[Versatile]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

I crank her over and push the accelerator pedal (something like) half way down at the same time. An instant later, I let go of both the key and the pedal, because the engine is now running.

This is in "normal" California weather -- 50 F and higher.
Recently, I started her in the early morning with 30-ish F, and she took a couple extra seconds to fire.

Mine sounds like that as well.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

dont use either unless you have NO other choice.
either is crack for diesel and of course if used to much it will get addicted and require it everytime to start? would question it but i have seen it to many times on older diesels .
put some gasoline in a spray bottle and squirt it into the air filter in place and go crank or have someone there to help.
diesel engines that set alot and require a starting fluid will get addicted to the strong stuff and and a little gas doeas the same thing but it is alot softer drug.
buy a 1 dollar squirt bottle and put some gas in it instead of either/starting fluid

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

That's a new one for me, and if it works, who cares what it looks like. Thanks for sharing.

universal choke cable with the spring sleeve guide and clamps

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Booyah45828

Did you check this? It's simple to check and verify the correct operation before we dig too deep into anything else.

Do diesels "flood" like gas engines?

[Booyah45828]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Do diesels "flood" like gas engines?

No. When a gas engine floods, the spark plug becomes wet with fuel, and the electricity that would normally jump the plug gap, doesn't. It's typically caused by having excess fuel in the engine, hence the term flooding.

Diesels don't have spark plugs, so they don't normally have excess fuel issues. You can have an instance where one will hydro-lock due to too much fuel, but that's pretty rare, and typically caused by something being broken.

[ermracing]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

dont use either unless you have NO other choice.
either is crack for diesel and of course if used to much it will get addicted and require it everytime to start? would question it but i have seen it to many times on older diesels .
put some gasoline in a spray bottle and squirt it into the air filter in place and go crank or have someone there to help.
diesel engines that set alot and require a starting fluid will get addicted to the strong stuff and and a little gas doeas the same thing but it is alot softer drug.
buy a 1 dollar squirt bottle and put some gas in it instead of either/starting fluid

Agreed that ether is no a cure-all, but the stuff with upper cylinder lubricant isn't that bad for the engines. It would at least be a good test to see if the engine will start with a squirt or two, or just catch and die again.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by saftyliner1997

I'm sure you know that Revan that Cummins cold any of them is siriusware damage

Two of my Cummins powered trucks have come with a sticker saying that you should hold the rpm above idle (1200 rpm?) when starting in cold weather. I have been following that advice for eighteen years and it has worked well for me.

[Danielaurence]

Sorry for the long delay on this. Multiple things kept me from addressing the bus again, but I'm back at it again, trying to figure out why it *still* won't start. I had a mechanic friend of mine come take a look at it, and he gave it a shot of starting fluid and it still wouldn't ignite. After looking it over a while, he determined that he thinks its a solenoid in the fusebox area. He said on most deisels you hear a click after you turn the key, which is that solenoid kicking on (I wish I knew more about what I'm talking about here), but he wasn't hearing it. He also tested the solenoid and said there was power coming into it, but not out, so that is likely the culprit. Here's pictures of the fusebox. The solenoid is next to the numbered sticker in the upper right.

The problem is that that part seems to be really hard to find, according to my friend, anyway. He did say he found one for over $200, but I'm thinking there's got to be a cheaper one out there.

Has anyone else ever had issues with this solenoid, or would you know where I might find a replacement? I don't see any sort of part number on it, and I'm not confident enough about the electrical aspect to try and remove it myself at the moment.

EDIT: It looks like this may be the right part. Any tips on whether I may be on the right track (or how to safely swap it out) would be much appreciated!

[BlackJohn]

I do think you are on the right track in diagnosing it to that solenoid.


Be sure to test the old one properly with an ohmeter for continuity. Shut batteries off and remove the solenoid wiring but mark down how it has to go back together again or replaced.


You said you have power in but none out, ..this could mean the coil is bad or your previous test didn't find a good ground or you would have noticed power out on both of the larger terminals on the solenoid. One of these would have power on at all times, so the click you need to hear is the solenoid making a connection of the two larger terminals via magnetic contacts.



It could just need to be regrounded to clean, bare metal beneath its mounting bolts.


This would explain not hearing a click also when powered up.


Fixing the power issue will be a start to solving your no start.


Report back when you are able. Anybody can do this.


John

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by ermracing

Agreed that ether is no a cure-all, but the stuff with upper cylinder lubricant isn't that bad for the engines. It would at least be a good test to see if the engine will start with a squirt or two, or just catch and die again.

A local mechanic told me that the old formulation for WD40 worked well for starting the old diesels but the new formula doesn't. He says the Super Tech spray WD40 substitute sold by Walmart works good. Comments?