Water weight

[Sehnsucht]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Are you saying that a crash in which gasoline was the problem (I'm guessing here - don't know anything about it) was the basis for regulations affecting all school bus fuel tanks, regardless of the type of fuel?


If so, that's wack.

That's my understanding. The Carrollton crash was a 1977 former school bus turned church bus that was involved in a head-on collision. The impact drove part of the front axle into the entry door stairs, preventing the door from opening and driving more pieces into the unshielded gas tank. When the gasoline ignited, the passengers were killed by flame and fumes before they could escape through the smallish emergency exit windows. Kentucky legislation was simply the reaction to these facts - 9 exits per bus, no more gas engines, and I think they unified school and church bus standards which up to that point were disparate.

The irony is that the federal fuel tank cage standard did go into effect back in 1977 but apparently not until after this particular bus was manufactured without that requirement. Subsequently, when it retired from school service and became a church bus, it was further exempted from minimum standards because for some reason church kids aren't as important as school kids I guess. Anyways, that's how I understand it.

Long story short, yes that safety cage is a heavy piece of armor but it was designed and installed for a reason.

[Rivetboy]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Are you saying that a crash in which gasoline was the problem (I'm guessing here - don't know anything about it) was the basis for regulations affecting all school bus fuel tanks, regardless of the type of fuel?


If so, that's wack.

The Federal regulations were in place and had an effective start date 9 days after this bus was manufactured. It was a gas bus with a full 60 gallon tank.

[TheHubbardBus]

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation Sehnsucht & Rivet!

[Dirtdoctor]

Several questions- What the gvw OfYour bus


Always
Setting tanks between the axels is a good thing. Share the weight between both axels. Now that said you could use two smaller fresh water tanks and adjust your loading. Think two tanks side by side connected with a crossover line.
Keeping your grey or black water tank a single so it’s easier to manage. Weight and balance is a consideration.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by Joe45

As alway, its great to have so many different views pointing things out that may not be immediately evident-or that may have been bypassed by our dreamy minds...


Between the rear tires and the front tires, the center area has the drive shaft in the way and seems like much more of a problem, and has much less space. Still, Maybe I can use a few smaller tanks instead of a really big one for the fresh water.


I am considering the 200 gallons of water to have plenty for boondocking for extended periods if necessary. Maybe I could install a 100 gallon tank tucked into the frame in the back and use it only when I know I'll be boondocking for a long time, and the other towards the front.



Another option is to place the tanks, instead of the storage boxes, on the driver side area, between the rear and front tires, with a couple more wherever they fit in the center, and use the back to have all the storage.


The fuel tank is on the passenger side, which prevents another tank there.


I am thinking of adding an extra fuel tank eventually, so would need a spot for that.

Off the wall... if you are just using the water occasionally for boon docking you could consider a water tank on a trailer or in the bed of your tow vehicle if possible. Buy transport tanks not storage tanks. they are made for this task. You could also put water in containers in the aisle of the bus and dump them into a flexible lightweight waterbed type storage container or plastic container on the ground when you get to your boondocking location. A 12 volt pump and hose could do most of the work. Black HDPE potable containers will stay warm from the sun if the temps don't stay frozen for long and they don't develope algae problems like the clear and translucent ones do..

[banman]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Are you saying that a crash in which gasoline was the problem (I'm guessing here - don't know anything about it) was the basis for regulations affecting all school bus fuel tanks, regardless of the type of fuel?


If so, that's wack.

It's not so wack -- saying diesel isn't a flam hazard IS wack...

While diesel fuels have a much lower flash-point than gasoline fuels they still volatilize and explode -- especially on a nice summer day which is when most of these skoolies are on the road...

Likewise -- while working on your bus, if you spill diesel on your clothes -- change them asap and leave the soiled clothes outside in the open until you'e ready to wash them.

[brokedown]

I've got a pair of 55 gallon plastic food grade drums slung under my bus. One on the passenger side, one in the center. Grey tank is also in the center. I haven't felt any negative impact of balance over the 5000 miles or so since I installed them.

It's a good idea to prefer the weight to be centered. If you're using 55 gallon drums, each drum will be 500 pounds or so full. Also, the closer to the axle you can be the better. But you have to work with the constraints of the bus. If you're putting tanks above the floor (under your bed for example) it's probably really easy to position them perfectly centered above an axle.

Plastic drums can be absurdly cheap if you find the right place to buy them. We paid $5 each for clean drums that previously had apple cider vinegar in them.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by brokedown

I've got a pair of 55 gallon plastic food grade drums slung under my bus. One on the passenger side, one in the center. Grey tank is also in the center. I haven't felt any negative impact of balance over the 5000 miles or so since I installed them.

It's a good idea to prefer the weight to be centered. If you're using 55 gallon drums, each drum will be 500 pounds or so full. Also, the closer to the axle you can be the better. But you have to work with the constraints of the bus. If you're putting tanks above the floor (under your bed for example) it's probably really easy to position them perfectly centered above an axle.

Plastic drums can be absurdly cheap if you find the right place to buy them. We paid $5 each for clean drums that previously had apple cider vinegar in them.

I was intending to do the same thing. Then I crawled under my bus and started measuring. Even if I snug the drums tight to the floor they would still be the lowest point under the bus by 3-4". I don't know if I like that.....

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by banman

It's not so wack -- saying diesel isn't a flam hazard IS wack...

While diesel fuels have a much lower flash-point than gasoline fuels they still volatilize and explode -- especially on a nice summer day which is when most of these skoolies are on the road...

Good point. I stand corrected.

[brokedown]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

I was intending to do the same thing. Then I crawled under my bus and started measuring. Even if I snug the drums tight to the floor they would still be the lowest point under the bus by 3-4". I don't know if I like that.....

The rear differential knuckle sits lower than my drumms.. but not by much. My bus has a extra ride height option to I can see it being an issue on a lower bus. With that said, I've seen other TC2000s without that ride height option doing the same setup.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by banman

It's not so wack -- saying diesel isn't a flam hazard IS wack...

While diesel fuels have a much lower flash-point than gasoline fuels they still volatilize and explode -- especially on a nice summer day which is when most of these skoolies are on the road...

Diesel has a flash point of 126*, gasoline is -45*

[gs1949]

I once saw a movie, training for firefighters, where they extinguished a lit cigarette in a bowl of very cold gasoline. But the bowl of gas, and the hand that stuck the cigarette into the gas, were in a glove box just in case. It really looked like they were not totally sure this would work. But it did.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by gs1949

I once saw a movie, training for firefighters, where they extinguished a lit cigarette in a bowl of very cold gasoline. But the bowl of gas, and the hand that stuck the cigarette into the gas, were in a glove box just in case. It really looked like they were not totally sure this would work. But it did.

Gasoline doesn't burn, the vapors do.

[gs1949]

Yes, that was the point of this scene in the movie. The burning cigarette just hissed when it hit the gasoline.

[Sehnsucht]

The difference in gasoline versus diesel engines illustrates the difference in the two fuels. Gasoline vapors are highly flammable but its very stable in liquid form. Gasoline engines work by aerosolizing gasoline into vapor and then igniting it with the spark plug. Diesel fuel on the other hand combusts at high temperatures and therefore the diesel engine works with very high compression to create heat.

In an accident spill situation, gasoline can vaporize at ambient outdoor temperatures and then if those vapors encounter an open flame or heat source (which may be what's creating the heat to vaporize the fuel into vapor) you get a fireball. Diesel fuel on the other hand isn't going to spontaneously ignite without high pressure which isn't going to exist outside of the engine chamber.

Now if you want to talk about dangerous fuels, take a look at the lithium in the batteries of these new electric vehicles. Lithium batteries 'seem' safe but if they are overheated or ruptured then the lithium reaction becomes uncontrollable. Furthermore, it resists attempts to be extinguished, reflaring even hours later, and also requires special fire suppression because you can't just put it out with water.

Sorry for the major thread drift - I know this was supposed to be about water weight and I feel like I unintentionally started us down a whole other topic.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

Originally Posted by Dirtdoctor

Several questions- What the gvw OfYour bus


Always
Setting tanks between the axels is a good thing. Share the weight between both axels. Now that said you could use two smaller fresh water tanks and adjust your loading. Think two tanks side by side connected with a crossover line.
Keeping your grey or black water tank a single so it’s easier to manage. Weight and balance is a consideration.

now think that hauling water in to wherever that water goes into your waste tanks so the water weight moves as you use it and boondocking for weeks your black tank and or grey tank will accept the water and the solids weight which in the end weighs more than water weight and boondocking you can worry about hauling water in but more important is hauling waste weight out.
yes grey water can be dumped on the ground in some areas but if you collect black waste from your fresh water and or grey water system then it moves the weight of the fresh water into the waste tanks and there respective weights depend on your use?
mostly grey water because of shower and kitchen but depending on your toilet use and abuse the black tank can and will add up quickly and has to be dumped somewhere sanitarily

[Broachbilly]

Joe45.. Been reading thread. just went back and reread your first post. You said you wanted 2 - 100 gallons .. Since water weight distribution is the issue, would smaller tanks fit somewhere IN the bus?


Did not have room for two - 100 gallon tanks place 1 where you originally said and 2 smaller tanks somewhere inside Maybe.



Billy N NC


In research, drooling and dreaming Phase.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by banman

While diesel fuels have a much lower flash-point than gasoline fuels they still volatilize and explode -- especially on a nice summer day which is when most of these skoolies are on the road...

Diesel has a much higher flash point than gasoline (126 °F vs. −45 °F) but your point is valid. If the temperature gets over 126 °F (very possible), diesel vapors can be ignited by an ignition source.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

fSorry for the major thread drift - I know this was supposed to be about water weight and I feel like I unintentionally started us down a whole other topic.

Everything you say is well informed, and educational. A little thread drift can be a good thing.

[Rivetboy]

Originally Posted by Sehnsucht

Sorry for the major thread drift - I know this was supposed to be about water weight and I feel like I unintentionally started us down a whole other topic.

Geez I thoght I started the thread drift when the cat came out of the bag that I removed the 400lb fuel tank barrier and the whole planet gasped "isn't somebody going to think about the children?" Who knew...