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Old 11-06-2014, 01:55 PM   #21
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

I have a 78 passenger bluebird that's listed as a TC/2000, however by most appearances it seems like an All American (except for the front, which looks like a tc2000). It's GAWR is listed as 23,000 lbs rear and 13,200 front, and a combined GVWR of 36,200.

It looks nearly identical to Vlad's, except for the fact his was missing luggage bays. I'd really be curious to see what the weight plate says on his bus.

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Old 11-06-2014, 03:12 PM   #22
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsb
I have a 78 passenger bluebird that's listed as a TC/2000, however by most appearances it seems like an All American (except for the front, which looks like a tc2000). It's GAWR is listed as 23,000 lbs rear and 13,200 front, and a combined GVWR of 36,200.

It looks nearly identical to Vlad's, except for the fact his was missing luggage bays. I'd really be curious to see what the weight plate says on his bus.
You are absolutely right. My GVWR is 16626 KG which is 36200 LB. The rest is the same. BTW how long is your bus from rear bumper to front. Just measured my it is 40' + - 1". They have different ways to measure passenger capacity. You can place 3 kids per seat and only 2 adults. This is why my bus is rated 84 passenger capacity(my guess kids)

I keep "replacing" metal with metal... I removed over 2000 lb of steel panelling and other junk from the bottom. Also seats and 3/4 plywood flooring wasn't that light (didn't weight them). I removed fuel tank with useless steel guard and I couldn't even move it myself. I know the reason they added the guard but why did they add this to a diesel bus this size??? I installed semi steel tank 75 gal capacity instead.

I use 1/8" aluminium all around instead of steel. 1/8" is much more than original steel but aluminium is 3 time lighter. I am thinking about making slideout box frames from aluminium. I didn't drive the bus home because I didn't have air endorsement. The driver stopped at scale and wrote the front and rear weight on a piece of napkin. Later this napkin was lost....

Do you know your original weight (front and rear) before the mods and where you are now after roof lift and insulation?
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:33 PM   #23
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

I weighed the bus at the truck scale before I did anything (seats in, everything still original). The bus I'm working on is pretty much exactly 40' long.

I don't have the weigh slip in front of me, but I recall about 9000 lbs on the front and 12000 on the rear axle, with half a tank of fuel (100 gallon tank). When I get home tonight I'll get the weigh slip.

I think using aluminum in your build will be a significant weight savings. Additionally, removing the interior sheet metal, windows, floor deck, and seats is probably 1500+ lbs of material.

How did you remove and replace the fuel tank? Did you have to drive over a pit or jack the vehicle way up in the air? I see no easy way to drop it down and scoot it out. I wouldn't mind removing the giant steel frame from it to lighten the load.

On the other hand, I don't know if it really matters - 100 gallons is sufficiently large, and might as well just leave the framing in there if it's just not a huge problem.

I was planning on installing a group of tankage for fresh and dirty water in vertical pancakes, to keep side to side slosh to a minimum, joined at the bottom with a common manifold. This tank setup could easily fit between the frame rails towards the rear axle, which has the most open weight capacity.
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:56 PM   #24
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad
I removed fuel tank with useless steel guard and I couldn't even move it myself. I know the reason they added the guard but why did they add this to a diesel bus this size??? I installed semi steel tank 75 gal capacity instead.
I hear ya! After dropping the cage and removing the tank I moved it around by putting logs underneath it and rolling it over them. Crazy heavy.. Could you post pictures of the tanks installed under the bus? I'm curious how it worked out.
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Old 11-06-2014, 04:58 PM   #25
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsb
I weighed the bus at the truck scale before I did anything (seats in, everything still original). The bus I'm working on is pretty much exactly 40' long.

I don't have the weigh slip in front of me, but I recall about 9000 lbs on the front and 12000 on the rear axle, with half a tank of fuel (100 gallon tank). When I get home tonight I'll get the weigh slip.

I think using aluminum in your build will be a significant weight savings. Additionally, removing the interior sheet metal, windows, floor deck, and seats is probably 1500+ lbs of material.

How did you remove and replace the fuel tank? Did you have to drive over a pit or jack the vehicle way up in the air? I see no easy way to drop it down and scoot it out. I wouldn't mind removing the giant steel frame from it to lighten the load.

On the other hand, I don't know if it really matters - 100 gallons is sufficiently large, and might as well just leave the framing in there if it's just not a huge problem.

I was planning on installing a group of tankage for fresh and dirty water in vertical pancakes, to keep side to side slosh to a minimum, joined at the bottom with a common manifold. This tank setup could easily fit between the frame rails towards the rear axle, which has the most open weight capacity.
I forgot about windows weight and they weight a ton. I took some not all metal to recyclers and it was over 2000 lb. I still have many large roof steel panels, emergency door, entrance door (also weights a ton) just in case I need some steel. I will build aluminum doors.

I did raise and leveled the bus before I started. Some wheels are 7" some more. I tried manual hydraulic 20t jack but after sweating for an hour bought 12t air/hydraulic jack from HF and it worked like a champ. No sweat and bus goes up in seconds....

The fuel tank is not tall(14") but long(54"). My new tank is more like a cube. It is a bit smaller but I am going to add proppane injection. In this case propane will subsidy some diesel making it averall cheaper on fuel. I will also use auto propane for other needs.
At this moment I keep open space concept in my basement and when time comes I will try to get every wheel weight load and place tanks/ batteries accordingly.

I had one storage compartment and one tire compartment and men they were so heavy my all bottom framing and aluminium is not even close to it.

I am thinking about placing tire under front bamper before axle as high as possible. I know it must be secured super reliable. This will give extra strength in case of front collision. Remember you are almost outside and 30k pounds behind you. ... not fun....
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Old 11-07-2014, 03:08 AM   #26
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazty
I hear ya! After dropping the cage and removing the tank I moved it around by putting logs underneath it and rolling it over them. Crazy heavy.. Could you post pictures of the tanks installed under the bus? I'm curious how it worked out.
Here is the bottom of fuel tank. I made an opening in "basement" floor to get access to drain plug. Later I will make a cover.


Here is a side view:


Here is back side:


You can see a bus frame and a piece about 3/4" on top sticking out. This piece is a part of steel guard. It is bolted with 3000 bolts to the bus frame. I welded a channel into it from top and bolted straps to the channel. This allowed me to to avoid bus frame drilling or welding(I don't think it is a great idea...)

Here I changed fill-up hose and boxed it up. Now fuel can't get inside.


This is fuel cap area. All welded and sealed. I have "basement" below so I welded a steel tube to the bottom to drain any spilled fuel outside.
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:15 AM   #27
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Aluminum outside panels

Aluminum outside panels is what holding me back for some time. It is a lot of work to remove old panels fabricate new ones and install them. Also working under tarp is not super productive but what is my choice? It is raining outside 90% of the time.... grrrrr. We kinda get used to this and call the sun liquid sun.... so we have 90% of liquid sunny days. This sound better...

Because whole project is really HUGE I usually try to define sub-projects and split them into smaller manageable pieces. So my aluminum outside paneling sub-project has 4 parts. They are front right corner, front left corner and 2 rear corners. I have 2 middle parts but they will be part of slide outs sub-project. As of today I have only left rear corner left which is a good news....

Here are some details, tools used, tips etc.:

First of all tools. For paneling this size (4'x8' 5'x9') a must have tools are clecos. I used 2 types and sizes 1/4" and 3/16":


They are different. This one 3/16" is a spring loaded and you need a special pliers to install/remove:


It is ready to be inserted:


This is how it will look inserted into hole:


This clecos are very handy and very easy and fast to install/remove. The only one thing I don't like about them. You can't pull panels together with them harder then spring inside cleco itself.

This is the second type 1/4":


It is ready to be inserted:


This is how it will look inserted into hole:


This clecos hold panels just like screw. You can pull panels together as much as you can tight the wing nut. The only one thing I don't like about them. They are slow to install/remove.

But here is the problem. You can dry fit panels but how to hold panels together when sealant/glue applied? You can use clecos but glue will kill them very quickly. Here is what I used for 3/16 rivets holes:


This little trick saved me a lot of time and hassle. I drove metal screws into every second hole and they tightened panels together. Here red circles are screws and blue are rivets ready to be riveted:


Here are some panels installed or ready to be riveted. Front left corner:


Driver window:


Access door below driver window. I decided to reuse original door:


I used a lot of PL premium 8x between panels and between panels and bus frame. Also I put PL under each rivet....

Tarp makes taking pictures a project ) I can't even make a good picture of whole side.
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Old 12-07-2014, 02:22 PM   #28
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Finally I finished installing outside paneling. I still have bits and pieces here and there but they can wait. Now I am on my next sub-project which is going to be rough flooring and rough interior walls framing. I am thinking about dropping ceiling a few inches. It is so much easier to work with flat ceiling. Also I will have an air gap about 4" above fake ceiling and can run wires and ducting there. This air gap will make extra insulation layer.
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Old 12-07-2014, 11:46 PM   #29
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

You're crazy. Love the ambition, bus looks great!
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Old 12-14-2014, 02:13 AM   #30
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Here is some progress:
I decided to add 3/4" wood strips to steel body ribs. This ribs will hold a layer of plywood when I start working on interior paneling.

I used some screws and a lot of PL premium glue.
Here some pictures:





There was an "old project" I was waiting to do but didn't have time for it. The engine cover is build from 2 layers of steel with fiberglass insulation. The insulation was all wet and just ugly.





I opened top metal layer and removed all fiberglass insulation:



Then I cut some foam and filled space between metal layers instead of fiberglass:



After adding a lot of spray foam into all voids I put everything back together using 1/4" steel rivets:



Now it all looks like before but there is no wet ugly fiberglass insulation inside.
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:46 PM   #31
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Good call --- for whatever reason, most of the fiberglass insulation I have seen on buses over the years has been scarey bad. Damp, moldy & nasty. As long as the heat doesn't get too high, the foam should hold up much better. Is it closed cell?
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Old 12-15-2014, 05:22 AM   #32
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

It looks like I made a very stupid mistake.

I decided to fill steel posts with foam to add R value and to avoid condensation. I drilled some 1/4" holes and sprayed Great Stuff foam inside.

It looks like foam got hard only outside and very close to hole. The rest of the foam just went to the bottom of the posts and stays liquid there.

Now thinking about what happened and why I think I know the answer. This foam needs air and water to harden. In closed space it just seals itself and stays liquid just like it was inside the can.

I ordered some pour 2 part poly foam to do it right this time. Now I will need to drill more holes and deal with some left over mess....

Oh well we learn everyday something new....
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Old 12-15-2014, 05:48 AM   #33
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

That's good to know!
Keep up the good work.
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Old 12-15-2014, 02:57 PM   #34
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

My experience has been that foam in certain vehicle body locations isn't actually a good thing, spray foam or otherwise. It can trap moisture and promote rust formation - for instance where rivets or spot welds join parts together, there may be less corrosion protection and the combination of foam and moisture can really motivate the rust.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad
It looks like I made a very stupid mistake.

I decided to fill steel posts with foam to add R value and to avoid condensation. I drilled some 1/4" holes and sprayed Great Stuff foam inside.

It looks like foam got hard only outside and very close to hole. The rest of the foam just went to the bottom of the posts and stays liquid there.

Now thinking about what happened and why I think I know the answer. This foam needs air and water to harden. In closed space it just seals itself and stays liquid just like it was inside the can.

I ordered some pour 2 part poly foam to do it right this time. Now I will need to drill more holes and deal with some left over mess....

Oh well we learn everyday something new....
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Old 12-15-2014, 04:04 PM   #35
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Re: 98 Bluebird TC2000 Conversion:2 Feet Roof raise 3 Slideo

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsb
My experience has been that foam in certain vehicle body locations isn't actually a good thing, spray foam or otherwise. It can trap moisture and promote rust formation - for instance where rivets or spot welds join parts together, there may be less corrosion protection and the combination of foam and moisture can really motivate the rust.
This is why I want to seal metal cavities with closed cell poly foam. If you keep them opened and air get there because of temperature difference and high heat transfer properties of metal water will condense and create rust....

As long as cavities in metal structures are sealed from "fresh" air from inside or from outside rust won't be forming. The problem with this kinda "sealing" is because cavity is empty it will create pressure or vacuum when temperature changes. It is easier to fill it up with something like closed sell foam and forget about it....
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Old 12-23-2014, 02:42 AM   #36
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Interior roof framing

Because I raised roof 24" I have enough room to work with. I have 98" from metal floor to the bottom of roof ribs. I saw how others trying to use plywood and other materials for ceiling and what challenges they have because of curved roof. I decided to make flat ceiling so, I dropped a few inches. I made wood trusses from 2"x2" and attached them to the roof ribs. Here are few pics:


A bit closer:


The other side:


There is still a little curved part of the roof about 5". I will just use crown moldings to cover it.

I will insulate the steel roof and ceiling itself. I will have enough room to run ducts, wires, pipes etc. Also I can monitor temperature in the "attic" and can ventilate it if needed.
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Old 12-23-2014, 12:50 PM   #37
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looks good
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Old 12-23-2014, 01:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsb View Post
My experience has been that foam in certain vehicle body locations isn't actually a good thing, spray foam or otherwise. It can trap moisture and promote rust formation - for instance where rivets or spot welds join parts together, there may be less corrosion protection and the combination of foam and moisture can really motivate the rust.
I am just now doing the great stuff foam as we speak. I finished up filling the cavities two days ago. I got around this problem two ways. First by "layering" the foam. I'd take two cans and run the length of the whole side. Then walk back and do it again. this gave the foam some time to mix in with the surrounding air. However, if I did it again, I would wait longer between layers. One thing that I found helped was to take a round file or other long slim cylindrical stabby tool, and poke deep thin holes down into the foam to allow air to drop down there. i could easily refill the holes if i felt it necessary. But after a few days, it seems to be curing, but i'm going to poke more slimmer deeper holes this holiday to try and gauge weather it's dry at the bottom or not... I got pretty good results with this, but waiting a day for it to cure each time you poke it can take time.
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Old 12-23-2014, 03:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachowarrior View Post
I am just now doing the great stuff foam as we speak. I finished up filling the cavities two days ago. I got around this problem two ways. First by "layering" the foam. I'd take two cans and run the length of the whole side. Then walk back and do it again. this gave the foam some time to mix in with the surrounding air. However, if I did it again, I would wait longer between layers. One thing that I found helped was to take a round file or other long slim cylindrical stabby tool, and poke deep thin holes down into the foam to allow air to drop down there. i could easily refill the holes if i felt it necessary. But after a few days, it seems to be curing, but i'm going to poke more slimmer deeper holes this holiday to try and gauge weather it's dry at the bottom or not... I got pretty good results with this, but waiting a day for it to cure each time you poke it can take time.
Great Stuff foam uses moisture from air to cure. I used a spray bottle to wet surface before spraying foam into cavity.

You will be surprised how this foam seals itself and stays liquid almost forever. You are right there is no fast way to fill cavities. Small layers and water spraying worked for me....

Lesson learned if you have a chance to fill some space with foam do it before you cover this space enough so it becomes a cavity... plan you project ahead and save yourself some money and hassle

I even bought some liquid 2 part foam and it works OK. It doesn't need any air/water to cure, but what a hassle to push this expanding mess into a drilled hole
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Old 12-23-2014, 03:22 PM   #40
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Interesting idea for the rafters! How much headroom did you lose?Now you'll have plenty of space to run the utilities, insulate, build in some overhead storage, etc.
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