"Big Gary" an '85 Intl Make over

[oakspring]

Here's some starting pictures of "Big Gary" before the start of the make over.

He's a 30 foot '85 Intl Thomas Skoolie.







I got this bus about two years ago in a straight across swap for "Little Gary" (named after Sponge Bob Square Pants' pet snail fame and his blazing speed!) an '86 Toyota Sunrader self-contained mini-motor home that I had renovated. My buddy needed something smaller...and I needed something bigger. "Big Gary" was pretty limited in accommodations when I got him. He is basically just a shell with no conveniences. The previous owner had wired him up so that when he pulled into a RV park he could plug in for electrical power, but had no water, toilet (porta-potty) or any others systems were hooked up. I lived in this bus for six months in a KOA while house hunting when I moved to a new job in Southern Colorado and I have no complaints. What I’m now shooting for is the ability to do some extensive dry camping and be much more independent on the road. Since “Big Gary” is only a medium sized bus at 30 feet from bumper to bumper I’m a bit limited on what I can do. I need accommodations for myself, my wife, our 9 y/o daughter and probably a bring-along friend.

So what I’m planning on doing is a complete interior tear down and rebuild. Gary will be completely rewired for both 12 v and household current…solar panels and possibly a wind genny are in the plans. I also have a portable generator to add to the mix. He needs a complete plumbing job from scratch: potable water, grey water and black water systems. I would also what the ability to filter raw water for the system from live sources if necessary, propane stove/oven, inline on demand water heater and both internal and external shower hook ups and a multi-power sourced refer. I also want to install "basement" storage and a full length roof rack, AC, and repaint....Ok…the WHOLE WORKS. So please be patient with my really dumb questions.

I will be looking at every system from Engine to tail pipe. Gary is a really low geared automatic transmission diesel. 55 mph is REALLY HAULING – 65 if warp speed!! He’s originally from North Carolina where I guess by law school buses are limited to just 35 mph on the roads…..I NEED MORE SPEED!! Plus I really don’t like the automatic especially going down hill with air brakes (I live in the Rocky Mountains – we have a few hills out here). I will post all the specifics next time, but any help in locating electrical schematics, manuals, etc., would be greatly appreciated.

And THANKS for all the ideas I’ve gleaned from just my first couple of visits here.

Steve

[captainkf]

Why not sell it as is, and put the money into a larger bus that is newer. If you're going to all the work, put it into a newer unit. Also destroying a decent conversion seems to be throwing away money, when you may be able to sell it. Just my thoughts.

-Richard

[the_experience03]

I like the way that conversion is set up although I'd miss all my windows and the light they allow. If it isn't what you want, it might be in your best interests to sell it.

My bus really was not bad in the Black Hills (which are not hills at all, let me tell you). We just had to put the tranny in 3rd and make sure we did a proper systems check on the air brakes in the morning. I sure wouldn't want hydraulic in that situation.

It sounds like you have everything planned out well. I look forward to seeing the progress.

[Excalibrate]

Hey man, I have to agree, shame to go to all the work tearing it down and it doesn't seem to be big enough anyway (for your needs). It looks pretty nice as it is (would be great for a young couple) and you could get a larger bus with better gearing and only have to remove the seats and sweep up and your ready to start! Good luck whatever you choose to do. I've seen many on the market at about $2000 - $3500 in the 35' flat nosed variety. That alone gives you about 7-8' more length in the interior.

[oakspring]

Thanks for the support and replies. Yes it looks nicer in the pictures than in real life. His original ideas were OK, but the workmanship was somewhat lacking and shoddy. My woodworking skills are much much better and I think I can really improve on what was originally done. I've thought of selling it as is, but just don't think there's a real market here in Southern Colorado. ($5,000-6,000)

Have a friend that is a heavy equipment/diesel mechanic. He and I are going to go over everything from top to bottom and then make a list of what needs to be done. The engine and tranny are very strong and about the only thing I don't like are the split-rim wheels, and the low top end speed.

I have thought to finish this off and then sell the improved version and using that seed money for a second larger build....but then I might just be CRAZY!

[pete c]

personally, I like that size. I think it looks better than a 40 footer and I would think it's a lot easier to drive in congested areas.

What is the difference in fuel mileage/performance? I would think that it ought to get a mile or two per gallon better. Should also pull the hills better.

Bigger is definitely better for a live aboard, but, I would think that this would be a good size for shorter trips.

If room is an issue, has anyone ever thought of bumping up a section of the roof and making it into a loft sleeping area? It might look like hell, but, who knows?

As for drive trains, I would think that a cummins 5.9 and 5 speed would be pretty sweet. There are a bunch of these around in pickups. Shouldn't be that hard to find one.

[wmah]

longer bus isn't a problem if you are used to it and even if you are not used to it it really isn't much harder to drive than a shorter version. The shorter ones are a bit easier to move in tight areas that some campgronds have. My issue wasn't that I couldn't handle it, I can and to drive the 40 foot buses about everyother week. My issue was where can I store a rv where I won't have to pay storage fees. I can park it in the back yard or on the driveway but it needs to be 32 feet or less in lengh. And since it is only two of us space isn't an issue for me. I have a 25 foot bus with about 19 feet interior space front firewall to back wall and believe it or not it looks like I will have a little extra space that may not get used. (knock on wood) If I was full timing in it a 40 foot conventional bus would have been my choice.

[oakspring]

Ok I've been crawling around getting Identification Numbers and I'm having a problem...where the heck are the Engine ID numbers and the Tranny ID numbers located??

Here's what I know so far.

International S1800
Engine Model: #165F
9.0 Liter Diesel (549.2 cuin V-

(Where's the ID number on these engines?)

Date MFG: 2/28/85
VIN: 1HVLPHXL8FHA38###
(what do these numbers/letters mean? Can't find anything on the internet to tell me?)


Transmission: Automatic, 2 spd?? (Reverse/Neutral/Drive)
(Where's the ID Number located on these big transmissions?)

Rear End: Spicer SN03285A Model F170S
Ratio: 6.5 (is this high?)

Vehicle Type: School Bus
Equiped Cap: 54
Chassis Identification Number: 22482
Body Identification Number: 58116-20217-25305

Where can I find a manual for this bus? Electrial Schematic? Engine maintenance/upkeep/repair manual?

[the_experience03]

Originally Posted by oakspring

Rear End: Spicer SN03285A Model F170S
Ratio: 6.5 (is this high?)

Numerically speaking, yes it is high, but when people refer to high gears they mean numberically low. For our buses something in the 4.11 range would be considered high gears and preferable for highway cruising. You 6.50 ratio would be considered low and excellent in hilly terrain, stop and go driving, or pulling the foundation out from under the house. Take it down the road and see what it tops out at. Your 6.50 ratio might be a pretty good ratio if your transmission is in fact only a two speed. Heck, that would even move torque multiplication downstream which theoretically could lead to longer driveshaft life.

[oakspring]

Ah Ha....go to the source! Talked with International this morning they referred me to the local rep and he looked up the VIN and faxed me the "Line Set Ticket" which is a list of all the original spec's for my bus when it was built. Boy am I a dummy! That was easy!!

Engine: 9.0L IH V8 Diesel, Model Code BA18535, Ser# 0000534

Transmission: AT545 Allison 4SPD T326 (well it does shift REALLY SMOOTH)

Rear End: Spicer Model F170S Ratio 6.50

Talked with the sales rep at the local place and he said that if I wanted a little higher highway speeds I might consider changing out the 6.5 rear end for 3.9 or 4.11, or perhaps so I wouldn't loose as much climbing power for hill driving 4.56 or 5.17's. Hmmm not sure what to think about that. Any suggestions. I would just like to be able to cruise at 65-70 on the flats rather than 55 mph with petal to the metal.

[pete c]

nice looking bus, oak. Do you really wanna gut it? Seems like sprucing it up a bit and selling it might make more sense, but, then again, resale on these things is almost as bad as my damn timeshare (anybody wanna buy one....cheap!!!).

BTW, I am the proud new owner of an '86 sunrader. How'd you like yours? I think they are great for a couple. Probably a bit cozy with 2 kids. We will find out this summer when we head west for 3 weeks. If it turns out that the toy is indeed too damn small, I think I'll be looking to sell it and become an official member of the skoolie asylum!

[oakspring]

We really liked our Sunrader "little Gary", but it was a little on the small side for me 6'2" 250... ...The only bad thing I can say is that it's underpowered for it's size and had we kept it I would have put in something with a little more UMPH in the engine compartment. A V-6 and a stouter transmission. You also have to watch cross winds as that can make life really exciting really quick. Also check your rear axle and make sure you have the heavier duty one. I think it was a six bolt axle vice the original 5 bolt which had a habit of snapping. Our little Sunrader was a lot of fun, a little cramped for me but fun still the same. What was nice was that you could get out and go on the cheap as far as gas went.

As to "Big Gary" it was really set up by the original owner builder to be an apartment limited to camp sites with full conveniences. Our goal is to reconstruct him to be a fully self-contained go anywhere/anytime true camper. And instead of just a single person we want it to carry the three of us, me, my wife, young daughter and perhaps a friend of hers on trips and such. So he really does need a proper rebuild.

So we're reconfiguring Big Gary to include:

Rebuilding:
- FullSize bed and underbed storage
- Rebuild cabinets
- Rewiring the 12v lighting
- Rewiring and adding more 120v receptacles
- New Drivers seat – old bus seat just kills back side
- Repair Tachometer
- Basement storage compartment for Generator
- Uncover more windows
- CB and SW radio with proper antenna’s
- Change out the rear end gears from 6.5 ratio to something in the high 4's to low 5's for better highway speeds.

Adding:
- 2 bunk beds – with coffin locker storage (navy guys will know what these are)
- Stove & Oven
- Water heater - continuous flow type
- Space heater
- Refer - 3 way
- Toilet
- Black water storage tank
- Sink
- Grey water storage tank
- Freshwater storage tank
- Full instrument monitoring of tanks
- Shower - inside stall and outside outlet w/ curtain
- Co-Pilot seat
- Basement storage both sides
- Roof A/C
- Propane storage area
- Run gas and water lines
- Dining area with under seat storage and seat belts for extra passengers
- Tool storage
- Screens for windows
- Awning
- Entertainment area with CD/DVD player/sml flatscreen & surround sound
- New main RV access door with screen door

Like to add on:

- Safari roof rack full length
- Rear deck bustle
- Fog & Driving lights (and off road lighting)
- Back up flood lights and side lighting
- Spare tire & Rack
- Solar panels
- Inverter and control center
- Battery pack for panels
- Marine wind generator
- Onboard water purification equipment
- Second diesel fuel tank
- Zipper room for awning
- Small wood burning stove
- Moon/Sun roofs
- Raise the roof 6 inches

As you can see, there is a lot lacking in the present configuration. Right now it's basically a room on wheels and not much more. So while it looks nice on the interior pictures...there's not much behind it.

As much work as this appears to be (and believe me it does) I think it's going to be a lot of fun by pulling together a lot of creativity, challanges and skills into one project. I'm a pretty good wood worker and carpenter, a basic level blacksmith. I'll need to learn more metal fabrication and welding. I can wire a car or a house....this covers both. I'm a pretty fair mechanic and a basic jack of all trades. I realize it's going require a lot of planning, work and patience, and I'm going to ask a lot of really stupid questions.

So the journey begins!

[pete c]

oak,

you a former squid? me too. still a part timer, actually. I was thinking that there has got to be someplace to score sets of triple coffin racks. The older style that actually swing up out of the way would be the best. I am sure that the navy has thrown away countless thousands of them over the last 20 years.

my sunrader does have the 6 bolt full floater or 1 ton or whatever the hell you wanna call it rear end. so, I'm good there. I don't really look forward to pulling the rockies in that thing, though. It's the "big" one, 22 ft. 22RE with the slushbox. i'll probably have to get out and push. I need the excercise, anyway.

[the_experience03]

7MGE's are $500 on ebay and are as much of a bolt in swap as you're going to find for a 22re if you have the right tranny.

That is an ambitious list, Oak! It was daunting when I made a list like that for myself. Just keep at it.

Coming from an insider...if you're in the market for batteries, it would be good to look soon. Most places will have a spring lawn and garden, marine, and golf cart battery sale. Don't be the first to go (you want the second shipment, not the leftovers from last year) but don't wait so long that they're not there anymore.

[oakspring]

YO! Retired CPO in fact....HMC to be exact, but more of a Scrunt - half squid half grunt. One of those poor sot's that spent most of my 22 years with Jarheads! But then someone has to provide adult supervision to them...Semper Fi!

Yes the one ton axle is the good one, but like I said I would consider stepping up the engine and tranny if possible. Those new Tacoma's would be a good basis for a Sunrader I think, but I doubt that Toyota will ever bring the little RV's back. What a shame.

Well we started the rip out today....whew! got about half of it cleared out and we're getting some awesome ideas for the new interior....

[Excalibrate]

Take lots of photos. We may need them for "evidence" in your insanity plea! Just kidding, have fun, look forward to seeing the progress.

[oakspring]

TWO FULL DAYS of ripping out the old interior and getting things down to basics. Boy did I find some surprises!

• - Never trust someone else's wiring jobs! - I found too many improperly wired electrical outlets and improperly insulated wires!
  - Clean - CLEAN - CLEAN Got everything stripped out and down to the rubber mat, what a mess. Old sucker sticks, dirt, dust, and gunk...UGH!
  - Rube Goldberg is alive and living in my bus - talk about "jury rigged" - Just because something looks nice doesn't mean that it's put together properly.
  - There is such a thing as TOO MUCH CAULKING!! I've got three windows that the original builder CAULKED TOGETHER with carpet cement!! - How the hell do I undo that stuff?????
  - Anything worth doing....is worth doing right - the first time. If anyone has a schematic for an 85 international bus I'd appreciate it. What a mess.
  - Rubber floor....leave it or lose it??? Suggestions!

I'll try to post pictures as soon as I figure out my wifes camera. At least now I have a clean canvas to begin working on. And while it was frustrating and a little shocking to find some of the things I did at least now I know what I've got to work with!!

[oakspring]

Hope this shows up well, here's the floorplan for Gary

[lapeer20m]

that is a spectacular floorplan. where did you draw that up?

[oakspring]

I used a trial version of a CAD program called Smartdraw from http://www.smartdraw.com for the basic layout then converted it to JPEG and then used Adobe Photoshop to clean it up a bit before uploading to photobucket and then posting it here. It's actually a pretty good program, easy to use and manipulate the images. I'm still figuring it out and just may buy it for future use. I think there's images for doing electrical and maybe plumbing but I'm still exploring the program. I noticed somehow my closet walls disappeared next to the wood stove??? Curious that, but oh well, still learning.

I'm also looking at installing a little wood burner. Has anyone does this? Here's what I'm thinking about:






Here's the company that I found that sells these for sail boats and such. http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm I figure the bus is just a big land yacht.....well sort of