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10-03-2016, 08:20 AM
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#21
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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Well.... as it turns out the IC CE has a major issue with the engine, according to the seller... so I guess it's out and I'll be going with the Thomas after all.
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10-03-2016, 09:41 AM
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#22
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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interesting, I wonder what they did to a DT-466E.. thats a pretty tough engine.. unless they got it hot and the coolant went in the oil...
or its the electronic injector system giving them fits... they are known to do that.
-Christopher
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10-03-2016, 09:59 AM
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#23
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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He didn't say.... guess they're still working on it.
That engine was the only real reason I was even considering it... the Thomas has more of what I want in bodywork and styling.
Actually wish I still had my old coach.... flat nose AND DT-466 engine. Oh well.
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10-03-2016, 10:05 AM
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#24
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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that motor still scares me..
by the way we wereb oth right on it... it is a Mercedes named engine built by detroit...
I just hear they go through a ton of oil is the main thing...
has to make me wonder - paranoid? maybe.. but the guy has one bus with a busted up DT-466 and nother with an MBE906.. is the MBE decommisioned by a school because it burned so much oil they got tired of it??
https://www.demanddetroit.com/pdf/en..._906_specs.pdf
-Christopher
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10-03-2016, 10:26 AM
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#25
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,829
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid
that motor still scares me..
by the way we wereb oth right on it... it is a Mercedes named engine built by detroit...
I just hear they go through a ton of oil is the main thing...
has to make me wonder - paranoid? maybe.. but the guy has one bus with a busted up DT-466 and nother with an MBE906.. is the MBE decommisioned by a school because it burned so much oil they got tired of it??
https://www.demanddetroit.com/pdf/en..._906_specs.pdf
-Christopher
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Anything Mercedes will eat you alive in parts cost and maintenance.
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10-03-2016, 11:18 AM
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#26
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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They have several others but the tires on them are all just about gone, and I don't really feel like shelling out another 2-3k on new tires...
I've been looking around at other locations but no one close enough to me has anything I can really afford....
Still looking but I get the feeling I'm just gonna have to take my chances.
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10-03-2016, 11:37 AM
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#27
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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you dont have to be super close... both of mine were 1000 miles away...
and im not saying the MBE is going to Blow up on you... they actually dont have a huge history of nuking... their biggest issue is some of them use a Ton of oil.. and parts are pricey if you should need engine work to it...
I only question that one as its a little unusual for a school to give up a 10 year od bus that looks to have a beautiful body on it.. ive only ever seen one of these engines in person and it looked and sounded and ran great... the guy just said it went through a quart of oil every 175 miles... and had been using alot of oil (progressively more) for a longtime but it never left him stranded..
if it runs, sounds, and drives good and doesnt crazily smoke then i'd say its a good candidate.. and then id be sure to drive it short distances, check the oil and then take it on a good ride before I started converting it..
I firmly believe every bus should be run a few hundred miles or more before you convert them.. just to make sure it is mechanically sound... and you also get used to the idea of whether a bus is right for you or not...
both of mine I started out driving along, and stopping every 20 or 30 miles to see if I was losing or using antifreeze, oil, trans fluid, etc and how it sounded.. the farther i got the more I learned and had a pretty good acquaintence with my bus after the trip.. (the first one i broke down 450 miles into the trip from a compressor failure...)
-Christopher
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10-03-2016, 12:03 PM
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#28
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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Yea I get what you're saying.... Detroit Diesel has a good reputation, last I heard, so I'm not overly concerned about it, just looking at all my options.
As I may or may not have said, some years back I had a '92 Ward on an International chassis with DT466 engine... that was a thing of beauty, ran like a champ, I drove several thousand miles in it without incident but a dispute with the storage lot where I kept it over raising storage fees every year ended up in my losing it.... I had never gotten around to starting the conversion on it anyway, due to lack of funds. So from that experience I know a bus and I will be good together.
The plan for this one is about the same... drive it around, get used to it, see how it acts, how the fluid levels hold, all that.... if I find it is using a lot of oil that's when I'll see what can be done about it, even if it comes to a rebuild or swap (though it would have to be a major major issue before that would be an option).
Since I have been getting parts ordered and sent in, once I determine the suitability I can start in on the project straight away.
Thanks for the input, has definitely been food for thought.
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10-05-2016, 11:51 PM
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#29
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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I went to Indianapolis to check out Jasmine today.... I was hoping to bring her home but I was unable to secure insurance (more on that in a different thread).
The trip up was worthwhile though... I did give her a pretty thorough inspection followed by a test drive. Mechanically she looks to be in pretty good shape for her age... some rust was evident in the engine bay but that's to be expected. She turned right over and she handles beautifully. Her instrumentation is fairly complete, and all gauges work properly save one (more on that in a minute). Down the left side, oil pressure, water temp, trans temp. Tach next, then speedo.... down the right side, fuel level, primary air, secondary air. Voltage is part of the digital readout with the odometer, trip odometer and hour meter.
All the lights were functional (including the warning flashers). Her brake/tail and turn signal lights on the rear are already LED so that's some more fundage I can save.
Over the course of an hour or so spent inspecting and driving, I did find out a few things that are going to influence my build.
First, the good...
1) She already has an air seat, so I won't have to worry about that (and will save the cost of one).
2) The underbay storage.... instead of two compartments, it is one full-width compartment. That will simplify some things hopefully, and will also give me a protected area to hang my fresh water tank... and maybe my grey water tank too, if there's room. Probably going with a composting toilet so won't have black water to deal with.
3) The air doors already have a locking mechanism built in. Not great, but better than nothing. I'll have to tinker with it a little to get them to secure better.
4) There is some free space in the engine bay where I can install any components that would need to be close to the engine for any reason.
And a couple of things that are really neither good nor bad, but things that I'll have to work around or figure out...
5) There is a full-width rear seat mounted to/over the rear engine housing. Gonna have to figure out how to get that out.
6) There was a repair done to the floor. Not sure if it is just a surface repair or if it goes all the way through to the crossmembers underneath the body. Either way when I lay new plywood on the floor it will not be visible, but it will have to be addressed if there's a hole in the metal.
Now, the not so great... nothing that was a deal breaker but still things that will need to be fixed.
7) Her body does have some surface rust which was not visible in the photos... again nothing really major, and to be expected for a bus of her age, nothing that a wire brush on a drill motor won't take care of.
The coolant reservoir cap was missing... that should only be a few bucks at a truck stop or engine service facility.
9) This was the biggest issue but still not a deal breaker.... the speedometer is way off. Apparently this is a fairly common issue with these buses, and a replacement sensor should fix it (part is less than $100).
Since I was unable to get insurance on her today, I'll have to have her delivered to me (which should be comparable to the cost of the fuel I would have had to purchase to get her home). Hopefully this will happen soon and I can start on the build.
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10-06-2016, 02:49 AM
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#30
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Winlcok, WA
Posts: 2,233
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I think Thomas makes a pretty good coach.
But Jasmine is sounding like something to run away from very quickly and not something you would want to run towards.
Items that would cause me concern: - The MBE engine is a money pit. Some might call it a Detroit Diesel engine but it is all European engineering that few mechanics understand. When it runs right it is great engine. But when anything goes wrong your only recourse is to take it to a Freightliner or Detroit dealer. And that won't guarantee that there is someone at that franchise that knows anything about it.
- Electrical gremlins are the bane of existence in newer equipment. That bus is new enough that is going to have some multiplexing going on. With multiplexing, unless you understand the wiring diagram and how everything receives a signal to operate you could end up with a bus that won't run or if it will run it won't run correctly.
- Rust is never good in a bus. You can chase your tale for weeks trying to convert all of the rust only to discover it bubbling up somewhere else. I noticed in one picture the paint appears to be a different color yellow around the rear wheel well. Around here that is usually indicative of running chains and having a set come loose and bang the living stuffing out of the side of the bus. I have also seen repairs in those areas on buses that have become rotted.
- The price makes me suspicious that there is something really wrong with that bus. Buses priced in that price range are usually at least five years older and many thousands more miles.
Jasmine appears to be a pretty nice bus and the short wheelbase is not very common. But at the price quoted I would look somewhere else.
Midwest Transit in Kankakee, IL (and other locations) has a huge inventory of used buses that can meet just about any person's needs and pocket book. If you go there ask for Rick Hanson. I have purchased about 30 buses from him over the years and have had satisfied customers for almost all of them. Used Vehicles with keyword "School" for Sale - Midwest Transit
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10-06-2016, 09:37 AM
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#31
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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the biggest thing I hear about the MBE engines is they use oil.. sometimes a LOT.. so people have tendency to always be running them over-full or Under-full on oil... which either condition isnt great on an engine.. and of course there are thse that run them out of oil which equals huge bucks...
I dont know nearly as much as cowlitz about them.. but I rearely see them in school busses.. even freight-breaker busses seem more often to have Cats than the MBE's..
-Christopher
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10-06-2016, 11:59 AM
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#32
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Music City USA
Posts: 737
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Detroit MBE906
Rated Cap: 72
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cowlitzcoach: This unit IS from Midwest (Whitestown location). I understand all the points you raised... however the deal was done when I wrote that post so the chips are just gonna have to fall where they will.
This bus will be used for fulltiming so it likely won't see a lot of road miles... the drive from Whitestown to here is probably the longest trip that will be taken, so if I keep a close eye on the fluids the engine should not give me any problems. I used to drive big rigs so I do know a thing or two about how to treat diesel engines and what to look for.
I will be repainting the bus at some point so any and all surface rust will be knocked down. I will most likely get and use one of those rust treatments I saw in another thread on both sides of panels that have been exposed to the elements to knock down any rust prior to painting. Will more rust show up? It's certainly possible, but with a thorough enough job hopefully not.
Once I'm living in it then there won't be any real hurry to get things done, I can take my time and do a thorough job... the only hurry is getting into one because I only have 13 days left here.
If nothing else I can live in this one until another suitable unit presents itself, then sell it on Craigslist or eBay to recover some of the costs.
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10-08-2016, 01:08 AM
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#33
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 487
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: T444E
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Following your thread and wishing you luck. Not trying to add to the negative energy here but FYI Midwest Transit burned me a few weeks ago on what looked to be a beautiful find on eBay. They deliberately misrepresented the condition and flat out lied about massive oil / coolant leaks. The colorscale in the photos was modified so that very visible rust showed up as gray ... all after telling me there was "no rust". The place even swapped the tires out for bald counterparts before I got there, and I dealt directly with the manager of one of the facilities. His name was Tom Buhle. He brushed all of this off as "no big deal", even trying to push the as is bs until I walked. This was after we drove thousands of miles to pick it up. Then I had to file a complaint before we got our deposit back.
I feel for your situation. It must be stressful having to move so fast. I wish I found a bus that looks as good as yours.
I only share this with you because I suggest you start with a full and VERY thorough inspection before you start anything. Get underneath it and visually inspect every single inch. It'll bring you a little comfort.
So what if she burns oil? The engine's a beast and there's not a single account here yet where anyone said it blew up ... you just have to check your oil frequently. Let the chips fall indeed. The bus looks great and I suspect you might've had a better experience, as well as a more reputable salesman. I am eager to see how you proceed.
Wishing you the best,
Tom and Em
__________________
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need ... roads.
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10-08-2016, 08:59 AM
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#34
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warewolff
Following your thread and wishing you luck. Not trying to add to the negative energy here but FYI Midwest Transit burned me a few weeks ago on what looked to be a beautiful find on eBay. They deliberately misrepresented the condition and flat out lied about massive oil / coolant leaks. The colorscale in the photos was modified so that very visible rust showed up as gray ... all after telling me there was "no rust". The place even swapped the tires out for bald counterparts before I got there, and I dealt directly with the manager of one of the facilities. His name was Tom Buhle. He brushed all of this off as "no big deal", even trying to push the as is bs until I walked. This was after we drove thousands of miles to pick it up. Then I had to file a complaint before we got our deposit back.
I feel for your situation. It must be stressful having to move so fast. I wish I found a bus that looks as good as yours.
I only share this with you because I suggest you start with a full and VERY thorough inspection before you start anything. Get underneath it and visually inspect every single inch. It'll bring you a little comfort.
So what if she burns oil? The engine's a beast and there's not a single account here yet where anyone said it blew up ... you just have to check your oil frequently. Let the chips fall indeed. The bus looks great and I suspect you might've had a better experience, as well as a more reputable salesman. I am eager to see how you proceed.
Wishing you the best,
Tom and Em
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I agree burning or leaking a little oil isnt a big deal as long as you stay on top of it... ive not heard anhyone i know of blowing up an MBE engine (exceot for one that they ran it out of oil out of stupidity.. but thats not the engine;s fault they didnt check the oil on a 2000 mile road trip)...
I used to freak out about little oil leaks on the busses.. until someone pointed out to me that next time i go to a truck stop or rest area to fill up that the spots designated for semi trucks are always covered in oil.. and those guys are running half a million miles on those engines before tearing them down...
Bus dealers want to sell busses like anyone else.. my carpenter came from a bus dealer.. and I probably paid more than I shouldve.. akthough i got a package deal with painting / body work / service, etc and so i ended up with an out-the-door that wasnt crazy cionsidering what I had done... i knew I needed to meet a schedule in my own mind to have a bus ready for my summer projects and trips.. and mission was accomplished..
the second bus i bought at an auction.. partly I wanted to learn how to do the auctions... and I was sort of halfway thinking about this second project... I had the advantage that a forum member works a ile from where the busses were being sold so he went and looked at them.. bioth for me and for himself.. and gave me a decent thumbs up on the bus i was considering.. so i put a bid in.. a rather low one.. and won the bus.. and think i got a good one.. being 1000 miles away it wouldve been a little riskier had a forum member not looked the bus over for me.. however the auctioneer had posted a video of the engine running so i knew it at least started and ran regardless...
and yeah i paid 25% of what im seeing the same year / type of bus listed for on dealer sites... did i get as good bus? no way t otruly know however it made the 1000+ mile trip pretty much flawlessy so i have to think so...
advantages to buying at a dealer are the fact you can crawl around in and drive multiple busses all in one place... and look them over in person.. it comes down to overall value at some point.. dealer vs auction.. esp if from out of town is it worth a gamble on an auction.. or a trip to a dealer where you can walk away if nothing suits..
every dealer will tell you "oh this bus is getting lots of attention.. it will be gone if you dont buy it now".. there will be another most likely nearly identical..
so ive got one of each now and im no regrets over my dealer bus.. it has done thus far exactly as ive needed in the timeframe I needed...
-Christopher
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10-08-2016, 12:10 PM
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#35
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Bus Nut
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Richmond Virginia
Posts: 932
Year: 1984
Engine: 366 Big block Chevy! :) w/ Stick shift
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Gosh the missing coolant cap is such a red flag for me.
To me it means someone has been trying to keep the coolant full so much that they lost the cap, and the old "it's only a cpuple bucks to replace" line worries me even more; why would someone not spend a couple dollars for such an important part? If they would neglect a crucial component to save $5 it only speaks to how little i can trust them with the rest of the machine.
fwiw
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10-08-2016, 12:43 PM
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#36
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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un less someone just took it off and used it on another bus in the fleet knowing that one was going toi be sold..
-Christopher
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10-08-2016, 04:29 PM
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#37
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New Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Holland, MI
Posts: 4
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Run the MBE in confidence. If you can talk the Allison into letting it cruise at 1400RPM and lugging down to 1200RPM before downshifting, you will have the most efficient combo out there. A rear axle ratio change may be needed.
There are 2 challenges for MBE900s and oil consumption:
A. The Allison transmisions do not let the engine lug down low enough to seat the rings.
Peak torque is developed from 1200 through 1600 RPM.
MBE906 engines thinks that they are a 14L SRS60
B. Most districts never set the overhead at 75,000 miles like they were supposed to.
I have seen OTR MBE906 egines go >500,000 miles and only need a ReliaBuilt head because they overhead service was not performed.
I have seen OTR MBE906 engines go >900,000 miles when the overhead service was performed.
Both happened in the came RV hauler fleet - 2 on the deck and one pulled behind on Freightliner FL-70 trucks.
The rod and main bearing surface is larger than those on an L-10.
__________________
DJLMWHWYG
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10-08-2016, 04:35 PM
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#38
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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if that bus is an allsion 2000 you can probably get 6th gear enabled by an allison dealer.. which would surely help the cruise RPM come down...
that 5th to 6th ratio is a decent drop... the only issue if the rear is really short would be drive-shaft spin speed.. but making sure the carrier bearing is good and the shaft set balanced would take care of that.. getting a shaft set balanced is a pretty easy task,
its a non issue if your rear is tall..
-Christopher
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10-08-2016, 04:41 PM
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#39
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New Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Holland, MI
Posts: 4
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Great points Caddillac.
5.29:1 is really comfortable with all 6 gears. Since this is a pusher, I would expect an Allison B3000 (MD3060). The MBE could benefit from the RPM drop from a 4.88:1 with 11R22.5 tires.
I If needed, it is good to find a friend (Freightliner Mechanic) with access to the Detroit Diesel G7 support page. Very complete information is available there.
__________________
DJLMWHWYG
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10-08-2016, 04:46 PM
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#40
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,889
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
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wow that is low RPM... my DEV has an AT545 (1:1) No lockup so im against the Stall speed of the TQC.. 11R22.5 with 4.78's in it and I *CAN* cruise at about 65 running 2500-2600 RPM;s..
I think 6th gear is a .50 on a 3060? thatd make a nice cruiser..
-Christopher
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