Pilgrim Days

[ermracing]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

I was not aware that was a thing that happens, I will definitely keep that in mind. My bus was in service in Alabama so they probably opened them quite a bit, but maybe all the sticky middle-schooler grime that was on everything else will keep them up

We bought a bunch of these to make sure the windows stay up while driving:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prime-Li...9819/100566713

[Skoolmee]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

I didn't really articulate the plan fully but basically I have a Webasto coolant heater that will act primarily as a hydronic heater for the bus. I will have radiant floor heat and possibly some radiators, not sure if I need those or not. The primary thermostat for the Webasto will be in the cabin since that is the highest set temp (~68 F). I will have a valve controlled by a second thermostat in the fresh water tank box that will divert the return water from the cabin to run through the loop for the tanks (I plan to run it back to the grey tank as well). This should come on around 40F to ensure the pump and tanks don't freeze up. I also plan to incorporate another circuit in the hydronic system to run through a heat exchanger to actually pre-heat the engine on cold days that we actually want to move. I have recently realized that it is a good idea to keep your batteries warm but I'm not sure if I want to run another circuit over to my battery box.


I am only smart enough on the hydronic stuff to be dangerous to myself and others so don't take this as a good way to do it. It is just my current plan.

Interesting, I think I got all that... reminds me of the recirculation setup I was looking at when I was mulling over a tankless water heater in my house.

Yes, I've not bought a bus yet myself but my plan was to keep the batteries [solar] and the water tanks in conditioned space, ie under a raised floor towards the back of the bus. The actual bus battery will be outside like it is now.

[Native]

Keep up the great work. You are providing us all with ideas and inspiration.

[musigenesis]

Well it looks like I may put in (one) bay window like yours after all. I have a spot underneath one of my emergency exit windows where I think I can put one of mine. It's interesting because they'll both be exit windows and they'll be opposite my side exit door, so with everything opened I'll get a nice cross-breeze through there.

I'm interested in looking more closely at how you framed this up. Because of my bus' high ceiling and the fact that this replacement window is from a low ceiling bus, I'd only have to cut the chair rail down to the flange that the seats are attached to, which is cool.

[DrDanger]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I'm interested in looking more closely at how you framed this up. Because of my bus' high ceiling and the fact that this replacement window is from a low ceiling bus, I'd only have to cut the chair rail down to the flange that the seats are attached to, which is cool.

That sounds great! I didn't take enough pictures while I was doing it, but basically I cut the upper L of the chair rail off and then screwed that back to the metal lip of the chair rail that I left at the bottom. I can take some close up pictures if you want, but after some of the comments people have made I don't think it was the best option. I think a better solution would be to use some angle iron instead (you could weld it to the ribs or rivet it to the chair rail).

[DrDanger]

Well, I'm bailing on my grey water tank plan. I had planned on using two 55gal blue poly tanks mounted with a metal frame to the chassis. In my head I thought there would be enough clearance underneath, but once I test fit the frame it was clear that it wouldn't be sufficient (~10in but it is at the very back of the bus).




Back to the drawing board. Options:
1. try to find plastic tanks that would work (trying not to stick out below the skirt)
2. Build a custom fiberglass tank
3. Wait until my buddy can build me one out of aluminum


I don't really know how to do fiberglass, but I'm willing to learn. Not sure how that will compare in cost to plastic tanks (I was surprised how expensive the fresh tank was when I bought that).


Thoughts?

[plfking]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

Back to the drawing board. Options:
1. try to find plastic tanks that would work (trying not to stick out below the skirt)
2. Build a custom fiberglass tank
3. Wait until my buddy can build me one out of aluminum


I don't really know how to do fiberglass, but I'm willing to learn. Not sure how that will compare in cost to plastic tanks (I was surprised how expensive the fresh tank was when I bought that).


Thoughts?

New tanks are ridiculously expensive.

I'm not quite to the 'gray water tank' part of my build yet, but leaning towards a water bladder inside a plywood box. I too want it hanging no lower than the skirts.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by plfking

New tanks are ridiculously expensive.

I'm not quite to the 'gray water tank' part of my build yet, but leaning towards a water bladder inside a plywood box. I too want it hanging no lower than the skirts.

I'm thinking about a tank like this: https://www.amazon.com/Class-Customs.../dp/B07NLLQDC1 (about $160, not sure if that's ridiculous or not). This is only 9" high so with my sunken tub I'll be able to sling this so its bottom is flush with the bottom of my side skirt and I'll have clearance to plumb in the tub drain. I'm not sure how well-regarded or durable this style of tank is, though - nobody seems to use them.

Alternatively, I was thinking of using a portable tank like this: https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Portabl.../dp/B07K8NK525 with possibly a way of winching it up and down. It would be possible with this to keep it on the ground sometimes for manual dumping (I might end up in a living situation where I have electricity and water but no sewer hookup).

I like the bladder in a box concept too, though, interested in hearing more about it.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

Ok, well, it hasn't gone as fast as I would have liked, but I am a stay at home dad right now and they tell me that welding is hazardous to children.

I hadn't noticed this comment before. Yes, welding is very hazardous for children. You should always glue them together instead.

[Native]

I have tried the ol' flour, salt and water paste, but the darn kids eat it instead of letting it glue them together. It does a nice job on their hair though.

[musigenesis]

Hey, do you happen to still have the short pieces of rub rail that you cut out for your bay windows?

[DrDanger]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Hey, do you happen to still have the short pieces of rub rail that you cut out for your bay windows?

Yep, sitting in the pile of junk behind the bus (to include roof panels, wall panels, the old rear heater, a mud flap, the bumper, and lots of wet leaves).

[DrDanger]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I hadn't noticed this comment before. Yes, welding is very hazardous for children. You should always glue them together instead.

Hahaha! Well, we only have one at the moment, maybe I could glue her to the walls...

[DrDanger]

I've been trying to figure out my plan for framing the walls to include insulation, wiring, water supply, etc. and I came up with an idea but I want to ask a question first: Does the flange of the chair rail (the part that the seat was bolted to) really provide substantial structure to the bus?



Once upon a time I called myself an engineer and as far as I can tell the main force that the chair rail resists/stiffens is racking between the ribs (i.e. it helps the ribs from leaning towards the front or back of the bus). It accomplishes this via three rivets on each rib. The chair rail flange does nothing to resist this type of force. The only thing it could conceivably help with would be lateral force from the side of the bus (e.g. getting T-boned). With that being said, the rub rails on the outside are likely providing most impact resistance.


All of that was a long, roundabout way of justifying cutting the suckers off! I am planning on doing this mainly to allow me to put a continuous sheet of 1in insulation over all of the metal (ribs and chair rail).



Lazy? Obsessive? Genius? ... Nuts?

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

I've been trying to figure out my plan for framing the walls to include insulation, wiring, water supply, etc. and I came up with an idea but I want to ask a question first: Does the flange of the chair rail (the part that the seat was bolted to) really provide substantial structure to the bus?



Once upon a time I called myself an engineer and as far as I can tell the main force that the chair rail resists/stiffens is racking between the ribs (i.e. it helps the ribs from leaning towards the front or back of the bus). It accomplishes this via three rivets on each rib. The chair rail flange does nothing to resist this type of force. The only thing it could conceivably help with would be lateral force from the side of the bus (e.g. getting T-boned). With that being said, the rub rails on the outside are likely providing most impact resistance.


All of that was a long, roundabout way of justifying cutting the suckers off! I am planning on doing this mainly to allow me to put a continuous sheet of 1in insulation over all of the metal (ribs and chair rail).



Lazy? Obsessive? Genius? ... Nuts?

I've wondered the same thing about the flange on the chair rail that the seats bolt to. Here's a crude diagram showing a cross-section through the chair rail:



The chair rail seems to serve a number of different structural functions here. It's a means of attaching the ribs to the floor, and the bottom lip of the chair rail will help to keep the wall from collapsing inwards if something impacts it up high. The top flange seems to be just a convenient point of attachment for the seats, but on the other hand the chair rail is a sort of weird I-beam and the two horizontal parts of it may serve as flanges in the same structure sense as the flanges in an I-beam (aiding the beam in resisting bending upwards and downwards - which it's really not going to do anyway since it's resting on the floor).

I've been meaning to call International and see if I can get in contact with an engineer there and find out how important the seat flange is. I had the same thought about cutting it off, but since I'm putting up 2" insulation on the walls it's not quite as important. I'm planning to notch out the foam board enough to fit over it.

[musigenesis]

Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by DrDanger

Yep, sitting in the pile of junk behind the bus (to include roof panels, wall panels, the old rear heater, a mud flap, the bumper, and lots of wet leaves).

Could I have them, if it's not too big a hassle? At a minimum I'd cover shipping. The only source of these I've found online are like $125 for a 8-foot section plus shipping.

A few short lengths of the rub rail around my wheel well were flattened by some past accident.

[Native]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.

Now there is another difference in the International and Thomas construction ... on a Thomas, the chair rails (and the panel below the rail) are welded to the hat channel as well as the floor.

[DrDanger]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.

Interesting, I'll have to take a look. I do have a splice on the left side.

[DrDanger]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

The chair rail seems to serve a number of different structural functions here. It's a means of attaching the ribs to the floor, and the bottom lip of the chair rail will help to keep the wall from collapsing inwards if something impacts it up high. The top flange seems to be just a convenient point of attachment for the seats, but on the other hand the chair rail is a sort of weird I-beam and the two horizontal parts of it may serve as flanges in the same structure sense as the flanges in an I-beam (aiding the beam in resisting bending upwards and downwards - which it's really not going to do anyway since it's resting on the floor).

It could sort of act like the flange of an I beam, but it isn't really constructed like structural steel (i.e. 2x thicker at the angles between the flange and web). Mine is just bent sheet metal.


Anyway, I think I'm going ahead with it. My big concern as I was looking at insulating and framing the walls is thermal bridging. I know a bus isn't really a thermally efficient structure, but every little bit of insulation helps. Plus I don't want condensation anywhere if I can avoid it.


I'll let you all know how it goes!