Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2020, 06:49 AM   #21
Bus Nut
 
ermracing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Unity, NH
Posts: 372
Year: 2003
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT466E (195hp, 520tq)
Rated Cap: 29,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post
I was not aware that was a thing that happens, I will definitely keep that in mind. My bus was in service in Alabama so they probably opened them quite a bit, but maybe all the sticky middle-schooler grime that was on everything else will keep them up
We bought a bunch of these to make sure the windows stay up while driving:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Prime-Li...9819/100566713
__________________
Dave
ermracing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2020, 09:28 PM   #22
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 6
Year: TBD
Coachwork: TBD
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post
I didn't really articulate the plan fully but basically I have a Webasto coolant heater that will act primarily as a hydronic heater for the bus. I will have radiant floor heat and possibly some radiators, not sure if I need those or not. The primary thermostat for the Webasto will be in the cabin since that is the highest set temp (~68 F). I will have a valve controlled by a second thermostat in the fresh water tank box that will divert the return water from the cabin to run through the loop for the tanks (I plan to run it back to the grey tank as well). This should come on around 40F to ensure the pump and tanks don't freeze up. I also plan to incorporate another circuit in the hydronic system to run through a heat exchanger to actually pre-heat the engine on cold days that we actually want to move. I have recently realized that it is a good idea to keep your batteries warm but I'm not sure if I want to run another circuit over to my battery box.


I am only smart enough on the hydronic stuff to be dangerous to myself and others so don't take this as a good way to do it. It is just my current plan.
Interesting, I think I got all that... reminds me of the recirculation setup I was looking at when I was mulling over a tankless water heater in my house.

Yes, I've not bought a bus yet myself but my plan was to keep the batteries [solar] and the water tanks in conditioned space, ie under a raised floor towards the back of the bus. The actual bus battery will be outside like it is now.
Skoolmee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2020, 05:13 AM   #23
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,452
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
Keep up the great work. You are providing us all with ideas and inspiration.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2020, 09:28 AM   #24
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Well it looks like I may put in (one) bay window like yours after all. I have a spot underneath one of my emergency exit windows where I think I can put one of mine. It's interesting because they'll both be exit windows and they'll be opposite my side exit door, so with everything opened I'll get a nice cross-breeze through there.

I'm interested in looking more closely at how you framed this up. Because of my bus' high ceiling and the fact that this replacement window is from a low ceiling bus, I'd only have to cut the chair rail down to the flange that the seats are attached to, which is cool.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 08:12 PM   #25
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
I'm interested in looking more closely at how you framed this up. Because of my bus' high ceiling and the fact that this replacement window is from a low ceiling bus, I'd only have to cut the chair rail down to the flange that the seats are attached to, which is cool.

That sounds great! I didn't take enough pictures while I was doing it, but basically I cut the upper L of the chair rail off and then screwed that back to the metal lip of the chair rail that I left at the bottom. I can take some close up pictures if you want, but after some of the comments people have made I don't think it was the best option. I think a better solution would be to use some angle iron instead (you could weld it to the ribs or rivet it to the chair rail).
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 08:36 PM   #26
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
grey tank fail

Well, I'm bailing on my grey water tank plan. I had planned on using two 55gal blue poly tanks mounted with a metal frame to the chassis. In my head I thought there would be enough clearance underneath, but once I test fit the frame it was clear that it wouldn't be sufficient (~10in but it is at the very back of the bus).




Back to the drawing board. Options:
1. try to find plastic tanks that would work (trying not to stick out below the skirt)
2. Build a custom fiberglass tank
3. Wait until my buddy can build me one out of aluminum


I don't really know how to do fiberglass, but I'm willing to learn. Not sure how that will compare in cost to plastic tanks (I was surprised how expensive the fresh tank was when I bought that).


Thoughts?
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 09:40 PM   #27
Bus Nut
 
plfking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: N.C.
Posts: 964
Year: 1997
Coachwork: Bluebird
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post



Back to the drawing board. Options:
1. try to find plastic tanks that would work (trying not to stick out below the skirt)
2. Build a custom fiberglass tank
3. Wait until my buddy can build me one out of aluminum


I don't really know how to do fiberglass, but I'm willing to learn. Not sure how that will compare in cost to plastic tanks (I was surprised how expensive the fresh tank was when I bought that).


Thoughts?
New tanks are ridiculously expensive.

I'm not quite to the 'gray water tank' part of my build yet, but leaning towards a water bladder inside a plywood box. I too want it hanging no lower than the skirts.
__________________
Don

The Busted Flush
plfking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 10:08 PM   #28
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by plfking View Post
New tanks are ridiculously expensive.

I'm not quite to the 'gray water tank' part of my build yet, but leaning towards a water bladder inside a plywood box. I too want it hanging no lower than the skirts.
I'm thinking about a tank like this: https://www.amazon.com/Class-Customs.../dp/B07NLLQDC1 (about $160, not sure if that's ridiculous or not). This is only 9" high so with my sunken tub I'll be able to sling this so its bottom is flush with the bottom of my side skirt and I'll have clearance to plumb in the tub drain. I'm not sure how well-regarded or durable this style of tank is, though - nobody seems to use them.

Alternatively, I was thinking of using a portable tank like this: https://www.amazon.com/Camco-Portabl.../dp/B07K8NK525 with possibly a way of winching it up and down. It would be possible with this to keep it on the ground sometimes for manual dumping (I might end up in a living situation where I have electricity and water but no sewer hookup).

I like the bladder in a box concept too, though, interested in hearing more about it.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 10:15 PM   #29
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post
Ok, well, it hasn't gone as fast as I would have liked, but I am a stay at home dad right now and they tell me that welding is hazardous to children.
I hadn't noticed this comment before. Yes, welding is very hazardous for children. You should always glue them together instead.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 03:44 AM   #30
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,452
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
I have tried the ol' flour, salt and water paste, but the darn kids eat it instead of letting it glue them together. It does a nice job on their hair though.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 07:54 AM   #31
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Hey, do you happen to still have the short pieces of rub rail that you cut out for your bay windows?
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 10:00 PM   #32
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
Hey, do you happen to still have the short pieces of rub rail that you cut out for your bay windows?
Yep, sitting in the pile of junk behind the bus (to include roof panels, wall panels, the old rear heater, a mud flap, the bumper, and lots of wet leaves).
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 10:02 PM   #33
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
I hadn't noticed this comment before. Yes, welding is very hazardous for children. You should always glue them together instead.
Hahaha! Well, we only have one at the moment, maybe I could glue her to the walls...
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 10:46 PM   #34
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Chair rail flange removal

I've been trying to figure out my plan for framing the walls to include insulation, wiring, water supply, etc. and I came up with an idea but I want to ask a question first: Does the flange of the chair rail (the part that the seat was bolted to) really provide substantial structure to the bus?



Once upon a time I called myself an engineer and as far as I can tell the main force that the chair rail resists/stiffens is racking between the ribs (i.e. it helps the ribs from leaning towards the front or back of the bus). It accomplishes this via three rivets on each rib. The chair rail flange does nothing to resist this type of force. The only thing it could conceivably help with would be lateral force from the side of the bus (e.g. getting T-boned). With that being said, the rub rails on the outside are likely providing most impact resistance.


All of that was a long, roundabout way of justifying cutting the suckers off! I am planning on doing this mainly to allow me to put a continuous sheet of 1in insulation over all of the metal (ribs and chair rail).



Lazy? Obsessive? Genius? ... Nuts?
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:00 PM   #35
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post
I've been trying to figure out my plan for framing the walls to include insulation, wiring, water supply, etc. and I came up with an idea but I want to ask a question first: Does the flange of the chair rail (the part that the seat was bolted to) really provide substantial structure to the bus?



Once upon a time I called myself an engineer and as far as I can tell the main force that the chair rail resists/stiffens is racking between the ribs (i.e. it helps the ribs from leaning towards the front or back of the bus). It accomplishes this via three rivets on each rib. The chair rail flange does nothing to resist this type of force. The only thing it could conceivably help with would be lateral force from the side of the bus (e.g. getting T-boned). With that being said, the rub rails on the outside are likely providing most impact resistance.


All of that was a long, roundabout way of justifying cutting the suckers off! I am planning on doing this mainly to allow me to put a continuous sheet of 1in insulation over all of the metal (ribs and chair rail).



Lazy? Obsessive? Genius? ... Nuts?
I've wondered the same thing about the flange on the chair rail that the seats bolt to. Here's a crude diagram showing a cross-section through the chair rail:

floorstruct.png

The chair rail seems to serve a number of different structural functions here. It's a means of attaching the ribs to the floor, and the bottom lip of the chair rail will help to keep the wall from collapsing inwards if something impacts it up high. The top flange seems to be just a convenient point of attachment for the seats, but on the other hand the chair rail is a sort of weird I-beam and the two horizontal parts of it may serve as flanges in the same structure sense as the flanges in an I-beam (aiding the beam in resisting bending upwards and downwards - which it's really not going to do anyway since it's resting on the floor).

I've been meaning to call International and see if I can get in contact with an engineer there and find out how important the seat flange is. I had the same thought about cutting it off, but since I'm putting up 2" insulation on the walls it's not quite as important. I'm planning to notch out the foam board enough to fit over it.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:06 PM   #36
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 11:11 PM   #37
Bus Crazy
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDanger View Post
Yep, sitting in the pile of junk behind the bus (to include roof panels, wall panels, the old rear heater, a mud flap, the bumper, and lots of wet leaves).
Could I have them, if it's not too big a hassle? At a minimum I'd cover shipping. The only source of these I've found online are like $125 for a 8-foot section plus shipping.

A few short lengths of the rub rail around my wheel well were flattened by some past accident.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 12:15 AM   #38
Bus Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,452
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas Built Bus
Chassis: Freightliner FS65
Engine: Caterpillar 3126E Diesel
Rated Cap: 71 Passenger- 30,000 lbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.
Now there is another difference in the International and Thomas construction ... on a Thomas, the chair rails (and the panel below the rail) are welded to the hat channel as well as the floor.
Native is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 09:55 PM   #39
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
Also, the things attaching the chair rail to the ribs aren't rivets (unless they changed the construction methods between my bus and yours). They're actually massive short sheet metal screws with rounded heads (I assume they're driven in by friction since they're not meant to ever come out and you definitely wouldn't want there to be any way for kids to unscrew them).

If you have a splice somewhere in your chair rail (I have one, not sure if everybody does) you can peek down in the gap and see how these screws look.

Interesting, I'll have to take a look. I do have a splice on the left side.
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 10:04 PM   #40
Mini-Skoolie
 
DrDanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Currently near Louisville, KY
Posts: 32
Year: 2005
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
The chair rail seems to serve a number of different structural functions here. It's a means of attaching the ribs to the floor, and the bottom lip of the chair rail will help to keep the wall from collapsing inwards if something impacts it up high. The top flange seems to be just a convenient point of attachment for the seats, but on the other hand the chair rail is a sort of weird I-beam and the two horizontal parts of it may serve as flanges in the same structure sense as the flanges in an I-beam (aiding the beam in resisting bending upwards and downwards - which it's really not going to do anyway since it's resting on the floor).

It could sort of act like the flange of an I beam, but it isn't really constructed like structural steel (i.e. 2x thicker at the angles between the flange and web). Mine is just bent sheet metal.


Anyway, I think I'm going ahead with it. My big concern as I was looking at insulating and framing the walls is thermal bridging. I know a bus isn't really a thermally efficient structure, but every little bit of insulation helps. Plus I don't want condensation anywhere if I can avoid it.


I'll let you all know how it goes!
DrDanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×