Skoolie for european roads - need your help about what model i seek for

[Wuast]

Hello everyone and greetings to the US from Europe.

My name is Yannik and i am from germany! Please be patient with my language skills and mistakes i make.

Also i feel sorry for the length of this post, i tried my best to express myself.


To my projcet: As you might expect i am totally into skoolies and i seek for a lift in my project. Because i live in germany us school buses are absolute rarites here and the acces to information in my language is very limited and generally said its hard form me to find compromised and summarized information.

Due to EU-laws and german bureaucratism (which is absolute terror) and its restrictions i want to get an older bus (30 years at least) to make it an official classic car (this is really important because otherwise i have to pay a rediciolous amount of taxes due to its CO² emissions and stuff like that -.-). (Please let me know if you got those insane and aweful restrictions over there, too.) But I also want technique in it and have a photovoltaic for independence. So i guess it should not be older than 1985 to 1992 (because i have a 10 years tolerance from the first date of permit fort hings that i am allowed to use for its conversion).


What i cant really get is: what is the bus model i look for? What is its official name/description/type? Like e.g. „International 3800“ or something like that.. i just cant get myself a good overview about what is available and what also fits to my requirements. Maybe you can help me out with that knowledge, maybe even share some good links, summaries, traders, hints and whatever is hard to impossible for me to get from overseas ☹


My (endless list of) "requirements" :


First permission between 1985-1992 (must!)

9-10 rows
type c (engine in front of the driver - AWESOME - thats not common here but i love it!!)

Ready to drive (must!)
No or very little rust, so i guess i search for southern traders
Frequently maintenanced (documented)
Title available (must!)
Reliability
As near to a shipping harbour as possible
Nice to have:
(only) drivers seat in good condition, 150.000 max mileage, little oil leakage (as little as possible)

Price isnt the most important thing but i hope to find a bus in good shape between 7000-9000 $, maybe 10.000 but not more. Do you think this is realistic? Would you say its realistic to find a old bus at all that fits my needs? I recently noticed that there are very little old buses available and most are from 2000 or later.

From what i can tell and what i got from my researches i should go for a 5.9 cummins diesel because its also used here in europe. Is it in chassis rebuildable? Alternatively i could get a 360dt?
I need a reliable and durable engine because service here is very very limited, as well as parts. Because fuel is rediciously expensive here i rate fuel efficiency over final power (as long as the engine will make me roll 55-60 mp/h).
Which parts usually need to be rebuild soon and should be purchased directly?


And finally the most important question: what is the bus model i am looking for that fits my requirements?


I really hope you can give me some input! Thanks a lot and have a good time

[Bert06840]

You want to have one already registered in the Eurozone or are you importing one?

[Sehnsucht]

If I understand your intention, you want to buy an American school bus and attempt to export it to the EU, specifically Germany? I think the difficulty will be in trying to import something that doesn't meet EU emissions standards regardless of its age. There may be limits on age for vehicles already in a country but that doesn't mean they're going to let more exempt older vehicles in because that would be flouting the purpose of the laws. I also think the cost to ship a bus overseas would be far more than you anticipate so before you even begin looking for a US bus you might look at shipping rates. This factor alone may derail your ambitions.

Sorry if this wasn't the advice you seek, but just being realistic.

[musigenesis]

There was a user here who imported a school bus to Germany, I'll see if I can find his posts. IIRC he paid about $4K for the bus, $4K to ship it, another $4K for import fees and another $4K for the VAT, so he was in for $16K from the start. So a $10K bus here would be well over $30K to import, most likely. A bus more than 25 years old could be made exempt from emissions regulations (which I think only a US diesel bus from 2015+ could actually meet).

Given the difficulty of getting parts shipped for a US school bus (even if the engine is one that is used over there), it seems like you would do a whole lot better to convert a vehicle that is "native" to your country.

[Bert06840]

The U.S. Armed forces used a very limited number of school buses on and near bases in Germany and the U.K., and they had the local rules waived. Some of those (one? Five? who knows) have made it into the general market.

While not buses, I have imported two cars from the US into Europe. They were 100% compliant with regulations. Equivalent models were for sale in Europe. Easy, right?

All of it is a major pain in the butt. It is an administrative Leidensweg. Even though you can, you cannot get parts. VINs show a blank. Taxation is a mess. TUV is a mess. Getting insurance is a nightmare.

Financially, it makes no sense whatsoever, definitely not if you're in the bottom end of the market.

You're trying to do it with a noncompliant vehicle for which there are few, if any, precedents. Can it be done? Probably. But you won't drive it this year, and you'll indeed have to budget a couple dozen kEUR to get it on the road.

[Wuast]

Originally Posted by Bert06840

You want to have one already registered in the Eurozone or are you importing one?

importing. adaption and registration shall be done here. shouldnt be the biggest problem.

Originally Posted by musigenesis

There was a user here who imported a school bus to Germany, I'll see if I can find his posts. IIRC he paid about $4K for the bus, $4K to ship it, another $4K for import fees and another $4K for the VAT, so he was in for $16K from the start. So a $10K bus here would be well over $30K to import, most likely. A bus more than 25 years old could be made exempt from emissions regulations (which I think only a US diesel bus from 2015+ could actually meet).

Given the difficulty of getting parts shipped for a US school bus (even if the engine is one that is used over there), it seems like you would do a whole lot better to convert a vehicle that is "native" to your country.

thanks for your advice. i could talk to a skollie-owner about the costs. it will come to about 20000 € in total which is okay. regarding to the parts: thats why i thought it might be clever to have some parts included in the shippery directly.

Originally Posted by Bert06840

The U.S. Armed forces used a very limited number of school buses on and near bases in Germany and the U.K., and they had the local rules waived. Some of those (one? Five? who knows) have made it into the general market.

While not buses, I have imported two cars from the US into Europe. They were 100% compliant with regulations. Equivalent models were for sale in Europe. Easy, right?

All of it is a major pain in the butt. It is an administrative Leidensweg. Even though you can, you cannot get parts. VINs show a blank. Taxation is a mess. TUV is a mess. Getting insurance is a nightmare.

Financially, it makes no sense whatsoever, definitely not if you're in the bottom end of the market.

You're trying to do it with a noncompliant vehicle for which there are few, if any, precedents. Can it be done? Probably. But you won't drive it this year, and you'll indeed have to budget a couple dozen kEUR to get it on the road.

you really need to know someone here if you want to get certain things done. thats very hard and for most ppl here even impossible, i know all those problems here... i face this terror for many years already.
i know its not a clever project from an economic point of view but man, im living once, now, got the money and dont wanna live the way i did. i can easily spent 15000$ a year on the bus instead on renting a flat without missing anything in my life. sounds like a fair trade for me then.


thank ya all for your hints and try get me back to earth. emissions isnt a thing as long as its a official classic car. thats why i look for an old one. it costs about 191 € per year taxation thats it. i know about the other costs and stuff. but what i dont know is which bus model i should have an eye on when searching for the right skoolie for me.

[Wuast]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

There was a user here who imported a school bus to Germany, I'll see if I can find his posts. IIRC he paid about $4K for the bus, $4K to ship it, another $4K for import fees and another $4K for the VAT, so he was in for $16K from the start. So a $10K bus here would be well over $30K to import, most likely. A bus more than 25 years old could be made exempt from emissions regulations (which I think only a US diesel bus from 2015+ could actually meet).

Given the difficulty of getting parts shipped for a US school bus (even if the engine is one that is used over there), it seems like you would do a whole lot better to convert a vehicle that is "native" to your country.

sorry didnt got this in my first reply for tech reasons

there is a special law that protects owners of at least 30 year old cars. all those restrictions due to emission and stuff doesnt count for them and they pay little taxes per year. thats why its only affordable if you get an old one... sounds stupid? it is..typical german stupidity imo -.- rules are ment to be followed, not ment to make life easier

[DeMac]

I've created a query, using the Advaced Search feature of the Regisrty, for model years 1985-1992, which have been added since yesterday (or older).

Query Link:
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/regis...d-search/1494/

The results contain six pages of various bus models from those years. This list could be further reduced by engine model, picture, etc. Play with the search fields for more results. Most buses were produced with more than one engine option. If you want additional information on a specific bus, it's ok to send a message, through skoolie.net, to ask the owner questions about thier rig. Good luck.

[Wuast]

Originally Posted by DeMac

I've created a query, using the Advaced Search feature of the Regisrty, for model years 1985-1992, which have been added since yesterday (or older).

Query Link:
https://www.skoolie.net/forums/regis...d-search/1494/

The results contain six pages of various bus models from those years. This list could be further reduced by engine model, picture, etc. Play with the search fields for more results. Most buses were produced with more than one engine option. If you want additional information on a specific bus, it's ok to send a message, through skoolie.net, to ask the owner questions about thier rig. Good luck.

Thank you for that. i will have a look on that.
from what i saw from my first few views, many listings dont say anything about the engine AND the transmission AND benefits (or just one of those things).



maybe some more ppl can contribute their specific knowledge, e.g.
"my model X has engine Y and transmission Z which is good because..."
Or "model X usually comes with engine X or Y or Z and you look for Y so this might be a good choice".
just something like that

and i´d appreciate your personal views about my thoughts about the cummins and/or the 360dt - would you recommand these or prefer others (for what reasons)?

[Joerg]

I've shipped a skoolie from Baltimore to Bremerhaven end of 2017, can help you on how to manage the procedures.
I recommend you to
- check with your local TÜV/ Dekra for the requirements to pass road permission (Vollabnahme); you will have to at least install side/ back bars (Unterfahrschutz), new head lights, engine emission certificate, noise test, most likely new brake system, maybe new tires

- find an agent for the port handling both in US and Germany; please note you're not allowed to drive the bus from the port in Germany to your home.

- yearly tax depends on the engine emission rate, don't buy a bus that is too old; you either have to have provide the engine certificate (EPA certificate) or you may need an individual one - extremely expensive; I actually pay about 500€ for a 2005 MBE906 engine
- think about the insurance. Most buses are registered as mobile home; ask your insurance for an offer
- find someone with experience on maintenance for your engine, transmission.

- you''ll easily spend 40k Euro in total on buying, shipping and parts, including the parts for a basic conversion to mobile home; yearly cost about 2k Euro plus fuel.

[Bert06840]

There you go.

For some it can be worth it.

In a certain set of cases, importing it though another EU country *may* make it marginally easier, and you can do an intra-EU transfer after that. You’ll still be liable for VAT and possibly duty locally - some countries have 6 to 24 month ownership clauses to make it tax “free”. But it requires you to have the appropriate connections in a third-party EU country, and the ability to navigate their local red tape.

[Wuast]

Originally Posted by Joerg

I've shipped a skoolie from Baltimore to Bremerhaven end of 2017, can help you on how to manage the procedures.
I recommend you to
- check with your local TÜV/ Dekra for the requirements to pass road permission (Vollabnahme); you will have to at least install side/ back bars (Unterfahrschutz), new head lights, engine emission certificate, noise test, most likely new brake system, maybe new tires

- find an agent for the port handling both in US and Germany; please note you're not allowed to drive the bus from the port in Germany to your home.

- yearly tax depends on the engine emission rate, don't buy a bus that is too old; you either have to have provide the engine certificate (EPA certificate) or you may need an individual one - extremely expensive; I actually pay about 500€ for a 2005 MBE906 engine
- think about the insurance. Most buses are registered as mobile home; ask your insurance for an offer
- find someone with experience on maintenance for your engine, transmission.

- you''ll easily spend 40k Euro in total on buying, shipping and parts, including the parts for a basic conversion to mobile home; yearly cost about 2k Euro plus fuel.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me.

i will either register it as a classic car (if old enough) - 191 Euro per year taxes
OR
i would register it as a mobile home - it will likely cost the highest amount which is about 1000 EUR per year and from what i´ve heared it doesnt matter if its not new (which i dont prefer because of the price and other aspects including the appearance) or older


basically you need a solid and reliable connection to work on the bus and who can make sure you meet the good inspectors ;) maybe i´ve already been lucky with this.

Originally Posted by Bert06840

There you go.

For some it can be worth it.

In a certain set of cases, importing it though another EU country *may* make it marginally easier, and you can do an intra-EU transfer after that. You’ll still be liable for VAT and possibly duty locally - some countries have 6 to 24 month ownership clauses to make it tax “free”. But it requires you to have the appropriate connections in a third-party EU country, and the ability to navigate their local red tape.

no connection except to the netherlands but afaik this wont change to much. so i come back to my response above thank you tho for that idea!!




overall my biggest problem seems to be that i will have hard times finding a good bus that fits my needs. i wont be able to purchase the one i strongly desired because i think im suspected to be a scammer (not a native, no personal contact, no cash payment) - at least from what i´ve read craiglist warns sellers.



maybe someone knows someone who wants to sell a bus, then let me know.
my requirements atm are:


1985-1996 (youngest), dognose with 8 to 10 rows, prefer a cummins, clear title, must run, no rust, good tires, overall good shape and below 200k mileage.
my budget isnt to limited but i seek for a fair deal of course and know the market

[Bert06840]

In your case… If you are going to persist in importing one from here… Just buy one from a reputable dealer from a southwestern no-rust state.

Lasvegasbussales.com has a good reputation. Paying them a couple thousand extra over Craigslist prices is worth it, and it’s not going to move the needle for what you’re going to pay out of pocket. The vast majority of your expense is not in the acquisition of the vehicle.

The only sensible thing is not to get one from here. I’m not going to try to stop you, but I will tell you that you won’t get it done for the 20kEUR you mentioned earlier.

As Jörg said… Budget for twice that.

[Bert06840]

Originally Posted by Wuast

there is a special law that protects owners of at least 30 year old cars. all those restrictions due to emission and stuff doesnt count for them and they pay little taxes per year.

I don’t know the law in Germany, but in some of the European countries that I do know of, a 30 day limit annually applies for a classic registration. And you need to complete a registration entry AHEAD of time - in the olden days you had to write down a line in your logbook in non-erasable ink. In others there is a xxx limit from your home address and/or annual limit. Others, still, explicitly allow only “ceremonial use”.

And… it’s still a dirty diesel. Not a Euro 6 compliant one. Not Euro 5. Not Euro 4. Euro Nothing. European diesel cars are too dirty for EPA regulations, but U.S. heavy duty vehicles are the opposite. You probably are going to have trouble being allowed into built up areas, classic registration or not.

Finally - the reciprocity between E.U. Countries isn’t universal. You may get a classic vehicle registration in Germany, yet if the Bundesländer are too small for you and you go to - say - Denmark. Perhaps Denmark has a ceremonial requirement, you may get a nasty fine, or worse. The yellow temporary plates Germany used to issue were not legal elsewhere in the E.U.

Lastly, you cannot bring any spare parts with your import. Of course you can, but you’ll pay VAT, duty, etc on EACH individual item.

Anyway, I wish you the best. I hope you are patient, persistent, well informed, well prepared, have a high pain threshold for red tape, and deep pockets.

[Joerg]

What I can definetely say about the experiences importing the bus and converting: Do it! There are many steps to go but you will have so much fun, you will find new friends and there is anyway nothing on TV in the long summer evenings...
We are actually with the bus in Sweden for a two week late summer trip, on a campground closed to the sea, having nice wheather. All is perfect and we are happy to have bought the bus.

[Wuast]

Originally Posted by Bert06840

I don’t know the law in Germany, but in some of the European countries that I do know of, a 30 day limit annually applies for a classic registration. And you need to complete a registration entry AHEAD of time - in the olden days you had to write down a line in your logbook in non-erasable ink. In others there is a xxx limit from your home address and/or annual limit. Others, still, explicitly allow only “ceremonial use”.

And… it’s still a dirty diesel. Not a Euro 6 compliant one. Not Euro 5. Not Euro 4. Euro Nothing. European diesel cars are too dirty for EPA regulations, but U.S. heavy duty vehicles are the opposite. You probably are going to have trouble being allowed into built up areas, classic registration or not.

The last point doesnt apply to germany. also i dont want to ride through built up ares to much, but thanks for those hints. i will keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by Bert06840

In your case… If you are going to persist in importing one from here… Just buy one from a reputable dealer from a southwestern no-rust state.

Lasvegasbussales.com has a good reputation. Paying them a couple thousand extra over Craigslist prices is worth it, and it’s not going to move the needle for what you’re going to pay out of pocket. The vast majority of your expense is not in the acquisition of the vehicle.

The only sensible thing is not to get one from here. I’m not going to try to stop you, but I will tell you that you won’t get it done for the 20kEUR you mentioned earlier.

As Jörg said… Budget for twice that.

Thanks again. i will check on that page. And i think its a good one to talk about that. Let me explain my budget thoughts and feel free to bring me down to earth again (btw: is that a good phrase or actually BS? )


i calculate like "official" 4-6000 $ for the bus. 10000 for the shipping. 5000 taxaion = 19-21k. cant say exactly because i dont know the price of the bus neither did i any convertion of the currencies. i think on top 6-7k for the conversion that fits EU laws. you are right, im not done with 20k but its not doubled either. the skooli-conversion again costs lots of money but thats over time and will take me more than a year, maybe even two or three.



its redicilous how expensive this project gets just due to german/european laws, bureaucracy and CO² restrictions.

Originally Posted by Joerg

What I can definetely say about the experiences importing the bus and converting: Do it! There are many steps to go but you will have so much fun, you will find new friends and there is anyway nothing on TV in the long summer evenings...
We are actually with the bus in Sweden for a two week late summer trip, on a campground closed to the sea, having nice wheather. All is perfect and we are happy to have bought the bus.

where are you from and what bus did you get? sounds great. i aim for the south ;)

[BelgianBus87]

Would anyone by any chance have gone through the Conversion from something like a Tour Bus to a Camper in Belgium ?
They have some funky restrictions here in Belgium, which I can't seem to wrap my head around. And would be very grateful for someone with experience in the matter.
Or perhaps a Company that can help acquire, convert and make it an officially registered camper..


Been searching my butt off for over a year, but thus far no luck.
I could use some help. I'm 34y old and got a 32K budget. Not looking for a skoolie but really a Tour Bus, with lots of storage underneath, and the ways/help/advice to properly convert it to Belgian/EU standards.


Kind regards !