Starting our IC RE 300 Project

[Power Hungry]

Well, we did it. We picked up an Orange County (FL) Schools 2007 IC RE 300 with a DT466. 187,000 miles, but is in extremely good shape. Since these came from the middle of Florida, there's no major rust issues due to salt. Overall, we're super happy with where we're starting.





This purchase was as much due to the necessity for a test platform as it was for a project for me and my wife to sink our time and energy (and wallets) into. We are super excited to begin working on this, but first things first... Gotta get a tune on this sucker!

Driving this thing back to Atlanta from Orlando at 65 MPH was exceptionally bothersome. The engine has the power, but the speed limiter was just ruining the drive. Outside of that, it definitely has the nuts to et up and go, and with a tune on it I can only imagine how much fun it'll be to drive.

With that all said, I'm curious as to whether or not it's worth it to lift the roof. I see ton's of conversions with the roof cut an lifted, but if head clearance isn't an issue (I'm 6'1" and have no issues standing without hitting the roof), does it really add anything based on the effort involved? I just don't want to go into it and create a problem where there wasn't one before.

Anyway, very excited and hope to have something reasonably presentable to take to a skoolie meet soon.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

I'm curious as to whether or not it's worth it to lift the roof. I see ton's of conversions with the roof cut an lifted, but if head clearance isn't an issue (I'm 6'1" and have no issues standing without hitting the roof), does it really add anything based on the effort involved?

That's a high-ceiling bus, should be 6'7" down the center with the floor plywood out. My bus is the same and I'm 6'0" and even with 2" XPS on the floor and 1.5" XPS between the ceiling ribs plus 3/4" XPS inside the ribs, it's still 6'3" down the center, which is just adequate for me. A roof raise is not mandatory.

[cadillackid]

Nice you got a bus!!! dont ditch the A/C thats my advice.. and of course you got all the engine and trans stuff down pat i cant tell you ajnything there that you dont know 10X more than I do welcome to the Mania!!!

[Power Hungry]

Now for the fun stuff!

So we've figured out that there is a bit of a communications issue on these vehicles when running an Allison Transmission and/or ABS. Both of these modules will continue to chatter on the Data Bus when we are trying to communicate with the ECM or IDM. This ends up causing the ECM or IDM not to program correctly, and also causes an issue with modifying the Parameters.

We have a short term solution which eliminates the communications problems on these applications.

1. If you have an Allison Trans with Electronic Shifting, you'll need to temporarily remove the "XMSN IGN FEED" fuse to disable the Transmission Control Module communications. On Rear Engine Bus applications, this will usually be located in the rear electrical panel. On normal Front Engine applications, this will be located in the main fuse/relay box. Check your Owner's Manual for the appropriate location.
   
   On this application (2007 RE300), the TCM fuse is located in position "C1", which is the first fuse in the third column. (Columns D and E are empty.) Remove this fuse and set aside.
   
   
   
   
   
   
2. If you have ABS (almost all applications do), you'll need to temporarily remove the "IGN FEED ABS" or "IGN FEED AIR ABS" fuse to disable the ABS Module communications. On school bus applications, this will usually be located in the electrical panel on the driver's side of the bus below the driver's window. On truck applications, this is usually below the dash on the driver's side.
   
   On this application (2007 RE300), it's the block located in the lower left corner of the electrical panel with a sticker that says "5035" on it. The ABS fuse is located in position "F27" which is in the upper left corner of the fuse block. Remove this fuse and set aside.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

With these removed, you can use the Orion Reflash System normally to Identify, Read, Reflash, and Modify the ECM and IDM.

Working on the tune today. Already have the Speed Limit bumped to 75 MPH. Will get some before and after 0-60 times just to sort of see where things are at.

More to come...

[cadillackid]

interesating on the allison.. my allison only talks on the J1939 link and not the J1708.. my 99 / 00 ABS controller is a wabco standalone that doesnt show up on the J1708 or J1939 link.



the one thing I am noticing is that when upping the engine power the ECM is much LESS likely to offer the J1939 trans kickdown call which means all the allison shifts come way early because you are on the throttle lighter.. and apparently the kickdown request has more to do with the shift hold-back than the base TCM shift tables.. I want to drive my bus down to your location sometime real soon so we can play with that.. I had hoped J1939 kickdown requests were infuenced more by engine load factor but they seem to be higher influenced by the pedal position.. so the result in my applicatin which has very tall rear gears is a tendency to spike my EGT real quick...

[ABBus]

400hp/1250lb.ft and a wide ratio transmission is what you want!

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by ABBus

400hp/1250lb.ft and a wide ratio transmission is what you want!

I'm pretty happy with the trans overall. The gear ratios in the trans seem to work pretty well.

1 - 3.49
2 - 1.86
3 - 1.41
4 - 1.00
5 - 0.75
6 - 0.65

I have no problem at all starting from a dead stop. When it hits second, it really starts pulling. I would, however, like to have a bit taller final drive ratio. From my calculations based on tire size and running 2300 RPM @ 65 MPH, I'm somewhere around a 6.50:1 gear ratio. Not sure what these come with, but that's pretty close. If I could get it down to something in the area of 6.00:1 or a little taller, that would at least put me in the area of 2300 RPM @ 70 MPH, or 2450 RPM at 75 MPH which would be awesome.

As for the transmission, from what I can tell, the 3000 and 3200 series are externally identical. In other words, the same case. Now, I'm curious as to what internal differences there are between the PTS (950 Ft./Lbs.) and the heavier duty versions like the MH and EVS (1250 Ft./Lbs.) versions are. Is it really just the same transmission with beefier parts and a higher input torque rating? If that's the case, as soon as the trans needs a rebuild I'll be building it as a 3200 MH/EVS spec. If not, then it looks I'll just replace it with the MH version and call it a day.

Current engine rating on the DT is 225 HP. Coolant temps look spectacular and I think it should handle 275 without issue. This will put the torque right at about 700 Ft./Lbs., which is still well within the design limits of the transmission. I have a pyro and boost gauge on the way, just so I can keep an eyeball on the particulars before I get it all cranked up.

One thing I did discover today is that school-age children are disgusting. The main bench seats are clean enough, but the two back row seats had a ton of nasty garbage under/behind them. Spent an hour sweeping and scrubbing. But hey, I made $0.36!

Well, back to work. Have tunes to write tonight.

[ABBus]

Transmission, the 3500 SP was a direct swap from the 3000 PTS.

[ABBus]

What I like with the wide ratio is, you get a better braking going downhill and better starting, while still cruising around 1450 rpm at 65mph in 6th gear.

[cadillackid]

6.50 was a common ratio of it came from Florida .. I’ve seen quite a few like that. You’ll need to turn 6th gear on as it defaults to 1-5 on all school busses . When you press D of it shows a 6 then you have all 6 gears if it shows a 5 you are in standard 1-5 format. I’ve never seen a school bus ship with all 6 enabled. Busses sold as transits or even church busses from the factory got 1-6. I think they shift the PTS a bit later than the standard program so I believe they want the engine rating lower since a school bus spends its life shifting gears constantly.

Fortunately the rear ends are really standard so swapping the 3rd member is pretty easy . You don’t even have to take the wheels off…

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by ABBus

Transmission, the 3500 SP was a direct swap from the 3000 PTS.

Cool. I'll have to keep my eyes peeled. I currently don't see a problem with the 3000 PTS in regards to torque capacity, but long term it would be nice to have something a little beefier.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

6.50 was a common ratio of it came from Florida .. I’ve seen quite a few like that.

Yep. It's an Orange County (Orlando) School Bus. Probably never even saw an overpass. LOL

Originally Posted by cadillackid

You’ll need to turn 6th gear on as it defaults to 1-5 on all school buses . When you press D of it shows a 6 then you have all 6 gears if it shows a 5 you are in standard 1-5 format. I’ve never seen a school bus ship with all 6 enabled. Buses sold as transits or even church buses from the factory got 1-6. I think they shift the PTS a bit later than the standard program so I believe they want the engine rating lower since a school bus spends its life shifting gears constantly.

It has 6 and I verified all 6 gears along with converter lock.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Fortunately the rear ends are really standard so swapping the 3rd member is pretty easy . You don’t even have to take the wheels off…

I was already thinking that. I'll pull the model number off the axle over the weekend and see what I can find for 3rd members. Something in the 5.50 range would be great. If I could get the RPMs down to around 2000 @ 70 MPH, that would be perfect. At 40 feet long, I feel like any higher and I would have difficulty leaving from a stop.

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen. I appreciate greatly it!

[Power Hungry]

Here's a spreadsheet I've got that helps visualize the shifting. I use these quite often when selecting transmissions, gears, and tires.

[cadillackid]

the beauty of using 6th gear and keeping it around 2000 at 70 is you have a nice short step to go down to 5th back at .75 .. since I programmed my own TCM I have my 6th set to only run whem im at pretty light load.. youur 5th gear with a 5.50 is right about your rated max HP so that is about perfect.


driving any faster than 70 in a school bus really is wothless.. you burn TONS of fuel and the driveability goes down.. my red bus I cruise at 65-70 althiough it will go much faster (even faster now thanks to orion) but its just no fun to drive aboce 70-75 max.



imk not sure all what ratios were made.. since yours is an RE the axle is a little different so i dont have part numbers for chunks for those.. 5.53 and 5.38 are ratios ive seen on the standard front engine setups so im going to guess similar is available. I had one built by Weller truck parts for my old 1978 Superior.. it had a 6.50 which I broke the pinion gear.. I had weller put me together a 4.78 for that bus.. wasnt exactly cheap but the result was a correctly built 3rd member I could just bolt in and go. hasd my drive shafts balanced and changed my U-joints at the same time.. bus driveshafts seem to always be off-balance..

[ABBus]

4.56 axle ratio here, 2013 IC RE (activity bus). So I guess a 3rd member with this ratio can be found.

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

bus driveshafts seem to always be off-balance..

Fortunately, my driveshaft is only about 18". LOL

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Power Hungry

Fortunately, my driveshaft is only about 18". LOL

yeah you are lucky with an RE.. my SUperior bus not only had really out of balance shafts but the U-joits were clocked wrong.. obviously someone had removed the shafts and didnt care how they put them back in.. probably changed a U-joiunt at some point..



both of my other busses are shorties and have 2 piece instead of 3 piece setups. even those were out of balance..



im guessing no one ever notices over all the other vibrations occuring in a school bus at highway speeds..

[Power Hungry]

I can't even imaging how bad that would ride with the u-joints clocked wrong. That's a level of vibration that must have been ridiculous.

[cadillackid]

im guessing that was part of what attributed to the pinion gear nuking itself.. it was osmething I missed when i bought the bus in oregon.. I got under it and quickly noticed none of the U joints had grease zerks and none were ready to break but never looked for phase.. I proceeded to drive the bus 2700 miles home pretty much without issue (1978 Superior with a 392 gas motor and AT540 trans).. across the mountains and all at a max speed of 55 and she was screamin to do that. 20 miles into a countryside ride after id been home a few weeks and the pinion gear started losing teeth.. ..


on another note I dialed my Red bus in a little more today.. with the Orion, the new Adrenaline HPOP and a tuned up allison 1000 she is KICKIN!! I do want to talk to you one of these days soon about the ECM and Transmission J1939 data.. there is a direct correllation as to how the allison behaves in response to the trans kickdown call .. im curious if you do anything with it in your tables.. if not I think there is opportunity to have some control over the tuner in regards to shifting.. ive had to raise all my shiftpoints running the Orion as my EGT's spiked qukckly

[Power Hungry]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

On another note I dialed my Red bus in a little more today.. with the Orion, the new Adrenaline HPOP and a tuned up allison 1000 she is KICKIN!! I do want to talk to you one of these days soon about the ECM and Transmission J1939 data.. there is a direct correllation as to how the allison behaves in response to the trans kickdown call .. im curious if you do anything with it in your tables.. if not I think there is opportunity to have some control over the tuner in regards to shifting.. ive had to raise all my shiftpoints running the Orion as my EGT's spiked qukckly

Very nice! I'm glad that things are settling in. These vehicles have great potential with what can do in tuning, but the rest of the hardware needs to be up to snuff as well.

Whenever you have some time, feel free to give me a shout. I'd be happy to discuss where things are at and what we might be able to accomplish in the ECM tuning to help the shifting.

Take care.

[jeffmakley]

Congrats.And good luck with your build.