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Old 12-09-2013, 10:18 PM   #561
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Wood burning stoves can also burn coal. Coal burns far hotter, longer, and cost $50 to $100 a ton across north America. We use it here at the farm, and now it comes in tarp like totes that fit on a pallet.

Just for fun, lets run some numbers. Coal has 30, million BTU per short ton (2000 pounds). Average cost $70 per ton.

A cord of seasoned birch firewood (best wood in my region) has 26 million BTU. Birch Firewood is $400 a cord in this region.

A cord of seasoned aspen firewood has 16 million BTU. Aspen Firewood cost $200 a ton.

A ton of Diesel has 29 million BTU and contains 241 US gallons. A gallon of Diesel here cost $5. $5 x 241 gallons = $1205

Electricity is a bit more complicated to figure. However, per 30 million BTU, the cost is $1260 at 0.14 cents a kwh

Long story short, I will be building a trailer for use when I'm parked and not on the move. It will contain a modern coal boiler, and a 5,000 gal water tank. Best part is a well insulated bus here will only need 35,000 BTU per hour in -40 C. The boiler I will be getting will push 100,000 BTU per hour. That means I will be able to heat 3 or 4 more skoolies or other buildings that have hot water heating.

If you were to do a wood/coal stove, I would keep it so it can be removed and stored in the belly storage. That way if you need it, it can be put into use. If not, it's not taking up a ton of usable room in the main bus.

Nat

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Old 12-10-2013, 07:01 AM   #562
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmkbailey


Starting to look like the space shuttle in here.
Post a video of you doing the "Moon Walk"


great job, you could mount some Grow lights and charge for sun tanning
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:35 AM   #563
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Wood burning stoves can also burn coal.
You might want to check this out further, but I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Since coal burns so much hotter, most wood burning stoves can't take the heat. It is my understanding that unless it specifically says so you shouldn't use a wood burner with coal. I wouldn't want anyone to find out the hard way.
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:20 AM   #564
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Your right about that, but...

You will never be able to tolerate a coal fire hot enough to damage your stove in a bus. The only thing that happens from burning coal in a wood burner that's not made for it ( excluding gasifiers) is it can warp the stove. Use common sense, and don't burn coal in tin can stoves.

What we did to make our stove last, was remove all the crumbling fire brick, and replace it with 1.25 inch thick steel plate. Same for the top baffle inside of the stove. This is a low buck solution.

Nat
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:15 PM   #565
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhereinusa
Quote:
Wood burning stoves can also burn coal.
You might want to check this out further, but I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Since coal burns so much hotter, most wood burning stoves can't take the heat. It is my understanding that unless it specifically says so you shouldn't use a wood burner with coal. I wouldn't want anyone to find out the hard way.
Agree.
I was looking into getting a Little Cod wood stove for my bus and asked the company about burning coal in it. Their response:
"Coal requires thick linings & a shaker grate which the COD does not have."
I asked about a retrofit and they said a DIY project is available. But these are quite expensive woodstoves and I wouldn't want to risk damaging mine. I was interested in coal because I thought it might provide heat through the night versus the 5 hour burn time of wood in these stoves. The company recommended North Idaho Energy Logs for increased burn time (similar to presto logs).

Links:
http://www.marinestove.com/codinfo.htm
http://www.northidahoenergylogs.com/
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:18 PM   #566
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Looking great! I can't wait until I get my next paycheck so I can start insulating too. Can I have your scraps?

I was looking into doing a wood stove for a while too. This is when I was looking at other model buses that didn't come with the diesel fueled furnace Webasto deal. You really wouldn't need a big stove at all. But as wmkbailey said, wood or coal is not the best for someone who travels place to place a lot, because both are bulky-ish and not as easy to acquire as diesel. Also, having a chimney sticking out while driving doesn't look too classy Since I am using mine for travel almost entirely at first, diesel makes more sense and wmkbailey has the same heater as I do. However, these are not the best for long-term stationary living situations. For one, I don't know if they are continuous duty rated. They are very VERY expensive to repair (ask me how I know) and you have to move the bus ~once a week to fill up the tank (60 gal in these) to keep it going, or find someone with one of those truck bed mounted diesel tank things.

I have no experience with coal, but I know I don't like the smell, personally. Though that is one way to make your bus "roll coal," these CAT engines burn really clean.

nat, thank you for breaking out those price comparisons! That is very interesting to look at. I know reality is not as clear-cut as that but it is a good way to think about it.

How wide are the scores in the insulation / what did you score it with? I am planning on using the same stuff. Are you going to put up any additional vapour barrier or is the foil good enough?
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Old 12-10-2013, 03:40 PM   #567
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkchopsandwiches
Since I am using mine for travel almost entirely at first, diesel makes more sense and wmkbailey has the same heater as I do. However, these are not the best for long-term stationary living situations. For one, I don't know if they are continuous duty rated. They are very VERY expensive to repair (ask me how I know) and you have to move the bus ~once a week to fill up the tank (60 gal in these) to keep it going, or find someone with one of those truck bed mounted diesel tank things.
They are continuous duty rated, boats use these to heat. This model we have, is rated for a 45' boat. The problem we have is, we can't run it whithout heating the engine. This is causing it to run more to keep that big piece of steel hot. I will set my system up to allow me to shut off heat to the engine until I need it. That requires the bus heat to be a closed system, that will need a expansion tank. Then a heat exchanger to the engine. If setup right we should not need more than 2 gal a day to heat the bus, that would be cold days.

Quote:
How wide are the scores in the insulation / what did you score it with? I am planning on using the same stuff. Are you going to put up any additional vapour barrier or is the foil good enough?
The scores are 3" a part x 1" deep. I used my new plunge saw, with the vacume attachment to help keep the dust down.

I'm putting up another inch and then a vapour barrier.
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Old 12-10-2013, 07:46 PM   #568
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Heat/

I have been using propane catalytic heaters for thirty years. Propane is not cheap. I also had a wood stove in my first bus. It would go out in the middle of the day, then it would take two hours to heat up the bus when I got home.

I do love those catalytic propane heaters.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:15 PM   #569
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordion
Heat/

I have been using propane catalytic heaters for thirty years. Propane is not cheap. I also had a wood stove in my first bus. It would go out in the middle of the day, then it would take two hours to heat up the bus when I got home.

I do love those catalytic propane heaters.
Which ones have you been using?

Chuck
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:33 PM   #570
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Propane per 30 million BTU cost $517 at $0.50 cents a liter / $2.27 a gallon. This is the price of non road taxed heating propane.
Road taxed auto propane cost $0.90 cent a liter here or $4.86 a gallon. $931 per 30 million BTU
However, most propane appliances are only about 70% efficient at best. So by the time you factor in losses, you are at over $1000 per 30 million BTU. That puts propane at the same cost or higher per BTU as diesel and electricity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordion
Heat/

I have been using propane catalytic heaters for thirty years. Propane is not cheap. I also had a wood stove in my first bus. It would go out in the middle of the day, then it would take two hours to heat up the bus when I got home.

I do love those catalytic propane heaters.
IMO Propane is dangerous, and contains far to much moisture to be used the way you do. I personally will not use any fuel that don't vent the exhaust outside. The only thing propane is good for is running a generator so I have good, clean, safe energy to use in enclosed spaces.

Propane has one real advantage. It has a unlimited shelf life. As long as it stays in the tank, it never go's bad. As a example, If you filled a 10,000 gallon tank full of propane, waited 10 years and resold it for the future inflated price, it would give you a better return on your money than investing in stocks.

Remember, this is only my opinion. Not looking to step on any toes.

Nat
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:59 PM   #571
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

One other consideration regarding fuel efficiency is the unit that burns it. While I don't have any figures on the others, catalytic heaters are far and away the most efficient "users" of fuel. Somewhere around 95% when you factor in opening a window or such for oxygen supply. And because they are considered "100% efficient at the source" they require no venting. All in all, the "Cats" are a good choice for most heating demands.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:49 AM   #572
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Yes, propane is dangerous. But, so is gasoline and even diesel fuel. If you maintain a diligent check for leaks, you will not have any problems. Plus, you can smell leaks because of the stinky stuff that is put in propane.

In the winter, there is low humidity. That causes dry air which can lead to dry flaking skin. Many people use a humidifier in the winter. The small amount of "moisture" that emanates from a propane catalytic heater is minimal, and is a useful thing in the winter.

I refer you to some info that I wrote in my thread about propane catalytic heaters.


Well, let's talk about them heaters for a bit, shall we?

Propane catalytic heaters are made up of a fibrous pad that is platinum strands. It looks similar to a steel wood pad.

Now, somehow magically, when the platinum fiber strands mix with a fuel source (propane) and oxygen, it produces a "glow heat".

The heaters are 97% fuel efficient and they do not have to be vented. You must, however allow for some oxygen intake from one of your windows.

The reason that they are 97% fuel efficient is because the fuel never combusts. In all combustion systems, whether it be automobiles or heating systems, there will be a carbon monoxide output.

On regular furnace type heating units, 30% of the heat value goes up the chimney (or, vent in the case of motorhomes). Those are the carbon monoxide exhausts from the combustion process.

With propane catalytic heaters, the only exhaust is carbon DIOXIDE, which is what we humans exhale, and water vapor.

Carbon dioxide is a non poisonous gas. When someone tells you to talk to your plants, it is because all plants strive on the breath you exhale while talking to them. The water vapor is also welcomed by the plants.

You may turn on many types of heaters in your abode, and you may notice how long it takes to warm the place up. That time frame is different with each type of heating mechanism.

I had a wood stove in my 64 International. I was living in Connecticut and doing carpentry. When I got home from work on a cold winter's day and the wood stove had died perhaps around noon that day, my bus was almost refridgerator temperature.

So I would load it up and keep my winter clothes on for an hour watching the flame and anticipating when it would be warm enough to play guitar. An hour later, I could remove some of my garb, but it was not for another hour that it would be warm enough to move my fingers on the guitar.

I love wood stoves, but for them to be a primary source of heat, they need a tender.

The great thing about a propane catalytic heater is that it is a radiant heater. It heats the mass of objects as opposed to heating the air. So start it up, sit in front of it, and instantaneously, it is like you are sitting in front of a fireplace. Those heat rays seek you out.

These types of heaters were developed in 1929 by the French. They wanted to develop a heater that they could use while working around airplane engines. It needed to safe as to not ignite the engine fuel.

Being that the catalytic action works at a significantly lower temperature, there is not enough temperature to ignite a combustion.

I have three of these 3000 BTU propane catalytic heaters. On low setting they put out 1000 BTU, on high, they put out 3000 BTU. The way your bus is insulated, it would be easy to heat it up with these heaters. You can also get larger heaters up to 8000 BTU.

They are called Safety Heaters because if, for any reason, the glow from the pad stops, a thermobulb will trigger a spring that shuts off the flow of propane. I have never had the glow stopping. From what I understand, that could only happen with a sustained flow of air across the surface.

They are silent, unlike RV furnaces that need 12 volts to drive the fan blower.

I have used my catalytic heaters while driving my my vehicles.

Here is a pic of one of mine.


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Old 12-11-2013, 09:59 AM   #573
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

While I am no physicist...I am in complete agreement with accordion. Did a fair share of reading and chatting with more than a few full-timers on different heating systems, and all things considered will go with a cat. I too LOVE a good wood burner and may include a small one. But more for the emotional/esthetic value than the heat. But hey, that's just my opinion...and ya know what they are like.

That's what's so great about these custom builds...we all get to try out our own ideas. For better or worse.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:02 AM   #574
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango
While I am no physicist...I am in complete agreement with accordion. Did a fair share of reading and chatting with more than a few full-timers on different heating systems, and all things considered will go with a cat. I too LOVE a good wood burner and may include a small one. But more for the emotional/esthetic value than the heat. But hey, that's just my opinion...and ya know what they are like.

That's what's so great about these custom builds...we all get to try out our own ideas. For better or worse.
The hydronic heat came free and is only a year old in my bus. If it does not work out, I can install another system. What, once the build is done we are not alllowed to tinker with them.
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:33 AM   #575
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

"Tinkering" never ends mate! Ain't life beautiful!?
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:05 PM   #576
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

I finally figured out how to use my heating system. I have been using it all wrong.

This is how my system is hooked up.



It takes more than an hour to get the water up to 170. When I turn on the radiators the Wabasto runs almost nonstop. I could not figure out why the rear radiator was hooked up this way. Water does not really flow well through it and it puts out luke warm air. I was tired of wasting diesel heating the engine.

Then this morning light bulbs went off. Durango ran into the bed room because he could smell burnt rubber.

What happens when I shut off the shut off valve? I get this setup.



Now the water flows through the rear radiator and the engine acts like an expansion tank.

While at home for lunch, I tried it out. It took less than 15 minutes to get the water up to 170, and it is 28 out. When I turned on the radiator fans I had good heat out of the rear one. After another 15 minutes it was warm enough to be in a short sleeve shirt. Guess what, I'm not heating the engine.

Now I can turn on the shut off valve and the second water pump to pre-heat the engine when I get ready to travel.
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:25 PM   #577
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

I was wondering about this. With it looped into the engine permanently you're heating that whole 1000lb+ hunk of iron, like trying to melt an iceberg with a candle. A simple cutoff and bypass will make that thing run much more efficiently and use very little fuel, and heat up quicker. If you wanted to get real fancy you could use a couple of electric solenoid valves so you just flip a switch to bypass it.
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #578
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkchopsandwiches
I was wondering about this. With it looped into the engine permanently you're heating that whole 1000lb+ hunk of iron, like trying to melt an iceberg with a candle. A simple cutoff and bypass will make that thing run much more efficiently and use very little fuel, and heat up quicker. If you wanted to get real fancy you could use a couple of electric solenoid valves so you just flip a switch to bypass it.
I thought about a solenoid valve, but it would need a way to turn it on manually if it fails. For now I can walk out and turn it on myself. It only takes about 30 minutes to get the engine warn enough to start.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:43 PM   #579
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

So I'm sitting in my bus hooking up my house batteries. It is 27 outside and 69 inside. Running the heat this way made a big difference.

I got my battery cables today, only cost $300.00. 60' of 1/0 cable at $4.19 a ft plus 40 copper lugs. Not a bad price, they don't charge to make them.

So now to move my heat over to the house batteries and run it off a thermostat. That and finish insulation is my goal for the weekend.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:57 PM   #580
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Re: The Journey Visvi 1999 Thomas MVP ER

If you keep track of inside, and outside temp, how many times and for how long the heater cycles, I can calculate how many BTU per hour your bus is using to stay at set temp.

Nat
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