The Millicent Chronicles; two foot roof raise, big tailgate

[Elliot Naess]

Hi Paul:

You are absolutely correct that -- as I started to hint at -- the strength of
a structure such as these window pillars is almost entirely in the cross
section of the pieces (rather than in the wall thickness). To maintain the
original strength while doubling the length of these window pillars would
probably require them to be... oh, just shade-tree eye-balling in my
mind... four times the size; 8" x 6" instead of 2" x 1 1/2" -- not counting
the "hat brims". (Wild guess just to make a point.)
So your idea of copying the original "hat" profile in "one hat size larger"
is definitely a good step in the right direction.

But I don't know how I would go about it. Much easier for me to just walk
into Blue Collar Supply and fill a shopping list with standard items that
slip inside the original pillars. So I need to reclaim strength some other
way. This will be by welding in cross bracing. Fore-and-aft, I'll simply put
in diagonals in several window openings -- which will be skinned over
anyway. That will make each of those pillars... oh... without going out in
the rain to measure... effectively about 25 inches wide. Across the bus,
I can put bracing in the walls and other bulkheads, such as the bath room
walls and the wall that separates the living area from the "garage". Up
front -- where I'll be sitting when I tip it over! -- will be the
toughest. But there will be something there. Stay tuned to this station.
There will be photos. This little Kodak C310 cost $99,99 and that included
the hose to connect it to the 'puter! And it is easy enough to use that
even I figured it out!

At Ye' Olde Trucking Company where I (sometimes) work we have quite
a selection of crunched equipment in the back yard. When I was hiring
the drivers, I REALLY hated it when "one of my kids" did it! We are up to
around 200 trucks now, and we tip them over... seems like about once
a month.
I think it is something internal in the driver's gut. I sometimes ride with
other drivers, and many of them seem to have no sense of balance.
They fly thru curves like they're in a sports car, and don't seem to notice that
the truck is leaning onto the #$%^&* door handle. Didn't they look up and
gauge how tall that thing was when they climbed in?!

All right. That seemed a bit off topic, but it wasn't really. Making a skoolie
two feet taller is serious business. I'm not going to go on about all the
people who tip their little station wagons over these days.

[scroll proofed]

[Elliot Naess]

“Cut on dotted line. Adjust height to fit child. Glue back together. Suitable for all
ages. Copyright Toys-Ain’t-Us.�



Zig-zag in dotted line is to clear door mechanism. Other side is level.

Ohsh... I hope this works! The actual lift is tentatively scheduled for New Years
Weekend.

[sp]

[Les Lampman]

You're really going to do this, aren't you?

So is the idea that (across the front) you'll leave just enough material below the cut to fasten the filler material to?

And once behind the door area your cut line drops down below the roof edge to the frames?

[Elliot Naess]

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.




Right now I am grinding down the rivets that hold the front cap just above
the windshield. I need that narrow strip flat to attach the new skin. I'm
not removing the rivets or loosening the cap; just flattening the rivet
heads. New rivets will go in between the old ones. Above, there will be
only about 3/4 inch lip for the top of the new skin. I'm splitting the cap
in this narrow area because that is the only place it is flat all the way across.

[Elliot Naess]

2006 December 23. 15:30. Point of no return.

[Les Lampman]

That looks serious!

Is that a regular cut-off disc you're using?

[Elliot Naess]

That's an electric "small angle grinder" with a 4 1/2 inch cutoff wheel.
Sliced thru the front cap like butter. I used the same tool with a grinding
wheel to flatten the rivet heads -- also visible in that last photo. In a
couple of spots I could not reach thru the framing with the cutoff wheel,
so I used a SawsAll with a long blade. A Sawsall is a rather violent tool,
and you can dull a blade in a hurry, so I use it only when no other tool
is suitable. In one spot I used a Skil Saw with a 7" cutoff blade, but a Skil
is rather awkward to use in odd positions. The front cap is now separated
back to just behind the door. To be continued.

[paul iossi]

get you some! looking good!
This is proof that I'm not the only one that's not right. I like the rational that filling in windows effectively adds strength probably in the multiple range instead of addative.
In the past I have had sucess having shapes bent up on a brake @ fab shop, steel dealer, your local steel wholesaler that won't sell in small quantities (tonage) can tell you which of his customers can/will help you out, or a large sheet metal shop (industrial duct work) can also help. I have also had a lot of luck by asking for (drops), leftovers behind the sheer that someone else didn't use that are larger than the sizes that I need. Most dealers sell steel by the ton/pound, plus cut fees but you usually pay for the minimum standard size piece, ie; 20'length, or 4' X 10' sheet that your stock is cut from, so it pays to find out what your std stock size is and plan carefully to maximize layout of your pieces. Ask for professional advise and always ask "what question didn't I ask that I should have" before you leave, it's amazing what you will learn and the little tips that are free for the asking.
in reply to the cutoff whee question, my experience is that it pays to buy the better wheels. My welding supply house set me up with thin brandname wheels (Metabo) @ 25% increase in cost over harbor freight wheels, but they last 2 or 3 times longer, that looks like a deal to me.
enuff rambling, have a good holiday

[paul iossi]

With your obsession about rollovers, think about a brave bar aka rollbar hoop over the driver's compartment, it could be disguised as a stripper pole and bulkhead support, bolted thru the floor to brackets bolted to the frame rails. Also, every time you bend a piece of sheetmetal it adds strength-rigidity think corrigated cardbord to strengthen your end caps.
Check with the auto body shop-paint supplier for adhesives,(polyurethane), that technology is kind of like electronics the way it continues to change so fast.
again
Happy Holidays

[Elliot Naess]

Actually, I'm not the least bit worried about tipping it over!

But some of my friends are. And I value my friends. I have some great
friends! That's what it's about. Personally, I'd make it into a folding
canvas-top convertible. But if my Kinetic Racing buddies want something
to be comfortable riding with me, they're gon'na have it.

Of course, there is always that sleepy trucker who could knock Millicent
over with his 80.000 pounds of dollar-truck and canned soup.

[Demonknight]

A Sawsall is a rather violent tool

*sigh* yes...and thats why I love them......

[lapeer20m]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

That's an electric "small angle grinder" with a 4 1/2 inch cutoff wheel.
Sliced thru the front cap like butter.

while an excellent tool for cutting through a skoolie, respect must be given at all times. the same tool you're now using cut my finger all the way to the bone in just a fraction of a second while working on my skoolie one morning. That'll teach me to use powertools before my morning coffee.

i posted this some time ago, but i forgot where

[paul iossi]

I hate when that happens, especially when it's me instead of somebody else. Try harbor freight for their $10 for 3 pairs of welding gloves leather with something like 14" length lots of cheep protection for just about everything, fireplace, kitchen, shop, work etc. get enuff pairs that you don't have to look to far to find protection and then yuo won't be tempted to "get stupid".

Question what happened to the daily safety meeting-declaration? IIRC it goes " DON'T HURT ME" now lets get to work.

Keep a good firts aid kit, insurance info, and cell phone handy, the number is 911

enjoy

[Elliot Naess]

.
Naaaaahhh. I always use my power tools naked and under water.





Skilsaw with 7� cut-off blade went thru window pillar in one pass.



I cut the four pillars where the jacks go -- trying to get everything as
ready as possible for the big day.

[Elliot Naess]

It’s Christmas, so I’m trying not to make power tool noises in the neighborhood.
Tinkering with floor plan instead. This is a very rough drawing, but it should give
you an idea.



To me, the best drawing is in my head, and after that I just trial fit everything until
it all... uh, fits. Blocks of wood are among my favorite tools. Four of these brand
new Hyundai seats were free -- just luck.

[Elliot Naess]

After reading for a while on this Forum, I see that there are two “ceiling camps.�
One group takes their ceiling panels out and start from scratch with new
insulation and ceiling.
The other camp leaves their ceiling panels in place.

They are both wrong. The top should be cut off and left off, and a giant Carson
fastback soft-top should be constructed!

I’m leaving my steel ceiling panels where they are, for five reasons:

1: They are held on with three gazillion rivets.
2: There is a meaningful amount of insulation up there already -- see photo.
3: There are three gazillion rivets up there holding them on.
4: The panels add strength to the roof so it keeps its shape better when
separated from the rest of the bus.
5: The rivets; there must be three gazillion of them!



Once we are further along, we can add a second layer of insulation and a nice
soft sound-absorbent ceiling material. The layered look is always fashionable
this time of year.

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

After reading for a while on this Forum, I see that there are two “ceiling camps.�
One group takes their ceiling panels out and start from scratch with new
insulation and ceiling.
The other camp leaves their ceiling panels in place.

They are both wrong. The top should be cut off and left off, and a giant Carson
fastback soft-top should be constructed!

I totally agree...it's my wife that doesn't (she wins)!

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

I’m leaving my steel ceiling panels where they are, for five reasons:

1: They are held on with three gazillion rivets.
2: There is a meaningful amount of insulation up there already -- see photo.
3: There are three gazillion rivets up there holding them on.
4: The panels add strength to the roof so it keeps its shape better when
separated from the rest of the bus.
5: The rivets; there must be three gazillion of them!

Oddly enough since I'm removing my ceiling panels, I agree. As usual circumstances conspire to dictate one's approach.

- Since ours is to be a liveaboard bus when done I decided that I really wanted the best insulation possible in the roof and I wanted to get a thermal break between the outside metal roof skin and the interior. I could have left the original ceiling in place and done that but the issue is headroom (or lack thereof).

- Looks is important and I need to get rid of the rather large screw heads in the final ceiling finish and the ridges between each panel. I could have done that with another layer of insulation (and accomplished the max insulation requirement too) and then added a nice final covering but the issue is headroom (or lack thereof).

- I'm still not convinced I want (or have the ability) to raise the roof. So far my approach has been to take the inside out to the outside skin and see what it's going to take to get a well insulated bus. If I can do that without raising the roof that's the way I'll go (a definite maybe).

If I had had even 3 more inches of headroom (than I do) I'd have left things alone, added another layer of insulation to the original ceiling, covered it with something nice and called it good. And I can flat guarantee that if my ceiling panels were held in place with rivets rather than Torx head screws they would be staying in place...headroom or no headroom issue...the screws are bad enough.

Ironically, removing the wire chases, the ceiling panels, and the interior part of the rear cap may lead me to raise the roof, which means I wouldn't have had to do all that in the first place! The reason being is I can see now how simple the structure is but I'll really know when I can see the inside of the rear cap and determine where (and if) I can make a cut across the back of the bus above the rear window. Then, since I agree with point 4, I'll wish I had left the panels in place to lend the roof that extra bit of support!

I think you're doing it "just right"...if I wasn't such a chicken I'd be following your lead exactly.

[Elliot Naess]

Sir Hobart Brown, Glorious Founder of Kinetic Sculpture Racing, once finished
building one of his giant outrageous Machines a few hours before the Grand
Championship, and as soon as he welded the last piece on, he declared it
Ready To Race.

One of his assistants suggested they test it first.

“No!�, laughed Sir Hobart, “If I’m gonna fail spectacularly, I want to do it in front of
everybody so they can all enjoy it!�


That’s what we are doing here. Live and direct (sort’a), we are cutting up a
perfectly good bus and hoping we can put it back together again -- two feet taller.
No test. No retake. No Mulligan. No do-over. No seven second delay. All right,
maybe a seven hour delay to dispose of evidence.


This is the jacking mechanism -- one of four:

Black: Jack post.

Red: Jack parts -- foot, carriage and handle.

Bare steel: Lift Ram.

Yellow: Lift Ears, welded to Lift Ram, they bolt to roof.

White: Lift Guide, bolts to body.

Green: Jack Steady, welded to Guide, keeps Jack from tipping over.



I’m pretty much ready. Maybe Thursday.

[Elliot Naess]

Daily report: SOME progress each day!

This...



...has the makings of the biggest headache so far. The rear of the bus has a
forward slope in the top half, and I cannot decide what to do with it. There WILL
be a “garage� ramp back here, and I’m NOT including the zig-zag in the ramp.
This matter was brought up earlier and I put it off. But now I need to at least
decide where to cut it for the Roof Lift.

I’m considering taking the top cap loose and extending the roof those few inches,
but it would be a ton of work.

The quick way would be to just “average the angles out� and let the ramp slope
forward to meet the top. This might cause the ramp to be difficult to open, as
gravity would tend to hold it closed, but I could probably fix that with a spring.

The really ugly way would be to let the door frame for the ramp extend past the cap.

Decisions, decisions! Other than that, I’m just waiting for the wind to die
down. Having to retrieve the roof from the neighbor’s yard would be so...
unseemly.

[Les Lampman]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

The rear of the bus has a forward slope in the top half, and I cannot decide what to do with it.

There WILL be a “garage� ramp back here, and I’m NOT including the zig-zag in the ramp.

This matter was brought up earlier and I put it off. But now I need to at least decide where to cut it for the Roof Lift.

Ok, what if...

The ramp were built with an outside skin that followed the contour of the back of the bus and an inner skin (the actual ramp face) that's flat? It would be angled forward when closed because of the slope of the rear of the bus but it wouldn't have a "kink" in it.

In my head I'm seeing something like a roof truss stood on end (but not such radical angles), flat side toward the front of the bus.

If that worked could you then just cut the back cap as you're doing on the front?

Just wondering out loud...waiting for the wind to die down here too!