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Old 05-04-2024, 04:34 PM   #1
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Can I Own A School Bus As A Minor?

Hi, I知 15 right now but I知 super motivated to get a 4 window mini school bus when I get my license. I知 wondering if it痴 legal in Massachusetts to own one? I壇 take out the passenger seats and add in regular car seats likely facing inward, max 6. In the back I just want an open space and i知 looking to add a ladder up to a platform on the roof. I知 going to paint it and take the stop sign off as well. Also, I知 starting to work now and I have $2000 saved up so far from family members, as well as 40% out of my pay checks, with an addition 20% put into an emergency account. Is this affordable for a teen?

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Old 05-04-2024, 06:58 PM   #2
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Hey friend! Sounds like you've got a pretty solid start and it sounds like you've got a pretty good plan in place as well. I don't live in Mass, but I did a bit of browsing regarding licensing and legalities in Massachusetts, so I hope this information is helpful. I'd check with your local DMV just to be sure before you make the leap.

This is what I've concluded however:

As of July 1, 2023, Massachusetts residents who are 16 years old can apply for a standard driver's license, which is a Class D or M license. A Class D license, also known as a passenger license, allows the driver to operate a small truck, van, or car.

What is the weight limit for Class D license in Massachusetts?
Class D: May operate any motor vehicle whose manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) does not exceed 26,000 pounds or whose gross vehicle weight when loaded does not exceed 26,000 pounds.

Since you're looking at a short bus, also referred to as a cutaway (since it's a cutaway van chassis), you'd fall well under the 26,000 pound GVWR.

I don't think there's going to be anything going to cause you any issues.
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Old 05-05-2024, 06:46 AM   #3
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check with the DMV but for a minor to own a vehicle you'll likely need a parental / guardian to sign to conesent for the title and possibly the license plates to be in your name..



insurance will be your biggest hurdle at a young age.. if your parents are on board, perhaps they can put you on their policy till you get some experience and a couple years older where you can insure it yourself.. the smaller buisses like you want to get tend to be easier to insure than the bigger ones..



buying a vasn cutaway that is built and designed for 15 passengers or less will likely register privately as a regular passenger vehicle. each state isa different in how it views the capacity of a bus.. in miochigan for instance, they go completely on the tag thats in the bus.. so if it says the passenger capacity is 20, it has to be registered and licensed as a 20 person bus even if you only put 6 seats in...m in ohio they go on seated capacity so 6 seats registers as a 6 seat vehicle.. you'll have to check to see how the Mass DMV works...


when looking for busses remember that busses in the Northeast US live hard lives.. the roads are rough, theres lot of salt so the busses can get beat up in not too many years.. I have a friend who buys, refurbs and flips van cutaway buses in the connecticut area, some of the stuff that he gets looks pretty terrible and may only be 10-12 years old, take your time to learn, and look at busses before you decide to just pull the trigger..



Van busses sometimes command a bit of a higher price in metro areas as they are easy for secondary schools, churches, hotels to drive in tight cities.. they also often feature ammenities like air conditioning and more comfortable seats that l;arger school busses dont have so sometimes the prices are higher on those.. if you want to become mechanically inclined, learn new skills and have the tools / support of family / friends then buying a bus that needs a few simple things fixed can be a way to start cheaply.. (my first car many years ago was given to me and had a leaking head gasket and a broken air conditioner... I learned at a young age how to start fixing things.. I fixed the head gasket and the A/C myself, reading books, and enlisting advice from family and friends. that project is probably what set me on course to become very mechanically inclined over the following decades... ).
i'd expect to pay 3-5K for a nice van cutaway in a metro area that isnt beat up and is pretty much road ready for you to drive..



a bus with a gasoline engine will likely be cheaper for you to operate and maintain if you dont plan to run it all over the country.. oil changes cost less, gasoline in most areas is less than diesel, the emission controls are much simpler as well..
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Old 05-05-2024, 07:19 PM   #4
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I don't believe there are any laws preventing you from owning a vehicle at your age. There are 6 year old celebrities who own cars, they just can't drive them.

I see no reason why you couldn't title and register it and put into a childs name. Is it unusual? yes. But it's certainly been done before.

But you cannot drive it until driving age.
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Old 05-06-2024, 08:19 AM   #5
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insurance will be your biggest hurdle at a young age.. if your parents are on board, perhaps they can put you on their policy till you get some experience and a couple years older
This, 100%. I'd take this approach regardless and ride it as such for a long as you legally can. It'll be the most cost effective route to insuring your vehicle for the better part of the next decade of your life.
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Old 05-06-2024, 09:02 AM   #6
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This, 100%. I'd take this approach regardless and ride it as such for a long as you legally can. It'll be the most cost effective route to insuring your vehicle for the better part of the next decade of your life.
I think his initial question though was could he own one.

The answer is Yes. You can own it.

This will be a wall of text to the OP, but you should read carefully and understand this process as it will help you out now and in the future of any vehicle purchasing.

It's no different than going to a store and buying anything at age 15. You're allowed to.

What you aren't allowed to do is drive it. At your age this is fine, you can spend the next year breaking it down and getting it ready for a livable space.

What you need to do young sire, is obtain the clean title of the bus, and sign it into your name, and do not put the odometer value on the title. (yet). This makes it yours. The title may be in a different state than the one you live in. If it is, then do nothing further until you are legally able to drive it.

Don't go to the DMV.
Don't go to the tax office to pay property taxes.

Just hold the physical bus, and the title with your name signed onto it where it asks you to sign it over and lock that title up securely somewhere you won't lose it.

Also ensure that there are no liens on the title (this means money owed or borrowed against it), the title itself should state "No Liens" on it if it's a clean title. If there are liens, do not buy it as you will assume the money owed still by the previous owner. Walk away in this case.

Ask your parents on how to ensure the title is signed. (There will be a section at the bottom you fill out or on the back usually). If your parents say you need to turn in the Title, you tell them NO. The second you register the vehicle at the tax office you start paying property taxes. But if it's a paperweight on your parents property, and not being driven, then it's fine. (Your parents may hesitate because they think they could maybe get in trouble but if it's out of state they will not.)

Now the above instruction is if the title is out of state. This works because the title is out of state, and your current state doesn't care and doesn't even know the bus exist, and the out of state state cannot come after you because you're not a resident of that state. So if you're parents have reservation, explain this to them verbatim.
(I literally did this, and held onto my bus for 1.4 years before just applying for a South Carolina title just last week, with no issues)

The process is different if the bus title is in the same state as you. The state knows the bus exists, and will come after the previous owner for property taxes if you do not register the title. When they do, he'll have your information and say you own the bus. So you'll be on the hook for the property taxes potentially. (So your parents concern would be justified in this case). If the bus is over 15 years old, the property taxes are not much, like $30 a year on average for the tax. In this scenario, It's better to register the bus with the tax office, and then turn in the tags at the DMV and pay the sales tax (Initially purchasing the bus requires a sales tax to be collected by the DMV when you show them the title and bill of sale for the first time.) Turning in your tags tells the DMV that the bus is operable, but no longer being driven on the roads so you won't have to pay for tag/registration, But do have to pay property taxes until you're old enough to drive. In this scenario it's also better because if you try to do the previous scenario and don't tell the tax office, there will be various fines for holding onto the vehicle, but not reporting that you own it. Becomes tax evasion.

If the title is in the same state as you. While holding onto the plates the states assume you're driving it, even if you aren't, and they want the taxes and registration / license plate fees, but because you didn't disclose the title right away to the DMV, they can fine you in most states up to about $135 for not registering it while holding license plates. So bring the title in, (in case they ask for it, likely will) and turn the license plates in, show title and pay the initial sales tax. This squares you with the DMV, but not the tax office. The DMV may send you to the Tax office during the middle of all of this to register the bus with them, go ahead and do so, this is fine as remember the tax is cheap if it's over 15 years old. If not it could be higher, but still have to do it.

When you're old enough to drive it, you've already got property taxes paid for the remainder of the year (time period of payment of taxes) so later, you can skip the tax office part of it, then go to the DMV, and ask for tags and registration sticker, put them on, and you're good to go. Because the title portion and sales tax portion was already done months ago.

Getting vehicles tagged(license plates)/ Registered / Tax Office property taxes always requires running back and forth between the two offices, and it's annoying, but it's reality.

In Short:
At Age 15, just obtain the bus. If out of state, sign the title, do nothing else with it until you are old enough to register it in your state. (Don't even fill in the odometer yet if the title is out of state because your parents may have to drive it a few miles here and there to get fixes done mechanically and the values won't match. Some states care, others don't), when you go to register it officially and old enough to drive, fill in the odometer to what's on the bus itself at that time. (If the seller filled it in automatically already, then don't worry too much about it, just don't drive the bus more than a few hundred miles before you actually register it) You can explain transporting it and maintenance and the DMV will understand a few hundred miles, but it's over 1000 miles, they may not believe you and fine you for driving it without tags and registration.

So, if the Title is "In State", register it at the tax office, pay the Cheap property taxes on it, and then go to DMV, and turn in license plates (with title in hand, signed and fill out the odometer portions because DMV is seeing it for the first time in your name and expect the odometer to be filled out, and be prepared to pay the sales tax at that time) and wait until you're 16.

Additionally:
A Bill of sale will be required as well when you purchase it. It can literally be a piece of paper with their signature, and it should match the signature on the title of the previous owner. Don't forget to obtain a bill of sale with his signature stating what you bought it for.

A bill of sale should include:
Address of the previous owner (Should match address on the title)
Should include the VIN# of the bus
Should include the year and make and model of the bus.
Should include the price paid for the bus.
And should be signed, and signature should match signature on the title. And should have the guys name in print in addition to the signature, so the DMV can read it.
Should include the buyer (Your name) in print, and signed in cursive as well.
Should include the Date on the paper.

Example Bill of sale:
Could just be a blank piece of paper that's written in paragraph form like:

Address: Sellers address (Should match titles address)

This is a bill of sale for a 1995 International 3800 Bus. Vin# <some vin> For the amount of $5000.

Signed: <Signature> and printed name of seller>
Buyer: <Your signature, and printed name of buyer>

That's it. Have it with you at the DMV and Tax offices in case they ask for it, (they will).

Also to note:
The DMV will collect an initial sales tax as well which the sale price you are buying it for must be on the Bill of Sale. Whatever the sales tax is in your state, calculate the percentage of the sales price to the percentage owed, and expect to pay the DMV that value when you turn in the tags.

Example if sales tax is 7% in your state, and you buy the bus for $5000, it's 5000 * 0.07 = $350, so expect to pay that the first time you show the DMV your title. Adjust the math for your state and price you buy the bus for.

If you have questions about any of this, Private Message me. You're parents may not even full understand this as most do not, but this is the best way to navigate these waters in your situation.

Fees expected to pay:
Sales Tax (One time) at DMV.
Property Tax (Yearly) at Tax Office.
Tags License Plates/ Registration at DMV. (Plates every 2 years on average in most states) and Tags/registration (every year).

And one last thing:
If it is an out of state title, when you turn 16, do an application for title at the DMV first by handing in the out of state title, pay the sales tax, wait 30 days for them to mail you a fresh title in state, then go to tax office, register the vehicle with the tax office, pay the annual property tax, then go back to the DMV once you have the new in state title, and pay for license plates/tags, and good to go.

Good Luck young sir!
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Old 05-06-2024, 09:58 AM   #7
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I think his initial question though was could he own one. The answer is Yes. You can own it. It's no different than going to a store and buying anything at age 15. You're allowed to.
Absolutely, they can legally own the bus at 15, but OP said "I知 super motivated to get a 4 window mini school bus when I get my license." Assuming they're going to be getting that license, earliest possible at age 16 in MA, is why I suggested this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nocoasty View Post
I'd check with your local DMV just to be sure before you make the leap.
Simply because I don't live in MA and there could be laws and restrictions that I'm unaware of here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nocoasty View Post
As of July 1, 2023, Massachusetts residents who are 16 years old can apply for a standard driver's license, which is a Class D or M license. A Class D license, also known as a passenger license, allows the driver to operate a small truck, van, or car.

What is the weight limit for Class D license in Massachusetts?
Class D: May operate any motor vehicle whose manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) does not exceed 26,000 pounds or whose gross vehicle weight when loaded does not exceed 26,000 pounds.
And then based on owning the bus after getting their license, I agreed with the statement on insurance because paying insurance at age 16 on a vehicle registered solely in your name is a massive expense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitis View Post
What you need to do young sire, is obtain the clean title of the bus, and sign it into your name, and do not put the odometer value on the title. (yet). This makes it yours. The title may be in a different state than the one you live in. If it is, then do nothing further until you are legally able to drive it.

Don't go to the DMV.
Don't go to the tax office to pay property taxes.

Just hold the physical bus, and the title with your name signed onto it where it asks you to sign it over and lock that title up securely somewhere you won't lose it.
I don't know that I would do or suggest this. In Massachusetts, there's a requirement to register a vehicle within 10 days of acquiring it, regardless of what state it was purchased or if you intend to drive it immediately, in the near future, or not at all. Floating the title is against the law in Massachusetts. Failure to register a vehicle within the required timeframe can lead to penalties, including suspension of their driver's license.
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Old 05-06-2024, 10:08 AM   #8
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I don't know that I would do or suggest this. In Massachusetts, there's a requirement to register a vehicle within 10 days of acquiring it, regardless of what state it was purchased or if you intend to drive it immediately, in the near future, or not at all. Floating the title is against the law in Massachusetts. Failure to register a vehicle within the required timeframe can lead to penalties, including suspension of their driver's license.
Every state, says that, however it's a jurisdiction issue. That line only applies to the state the titles are printed for. South Carolina does too, as does every state. MA may be different but Most states I've seen this done with don't care if it's from out of state, but do if in state. My bill of sale was dated for last year, and I floated it, turned it into the DMV last week, cause the title was out of state from Virginia, they don't expect it. They don't care because I was attempting to get a SC title and register it here where they can then start obtaining taxes on me for it. It becomes a legal issue if they start requiring taxes for items out of state, so they won't fine you for it. Only if the title was in state the same state as you and you don't report it. As for the seller, it's his duty to report the sale in his state so he stops paying property taxes, but that's not your concern being a resident of a different state out of virginia's jurisdiction in my case.
It only becomes a problem when you sell the bus later, and you have to report it sold to DMV, but fail to do so.
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Old 05-06-2024, 02:02 PM   #9
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interesting you have to register it... here in ohio plenty of people have unregistered vehicles.. how in Mass could you ever restore a vehicle? you buy it? its not driveable, it has many safety flaws because it is not yet roadworthy and so you'd get dinged trying to register it, because you want t orestore it first... did they essentiually just outlaw restoring a classic car in your garage over a year's time wit hthat law??
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Old 05-06-2024, 06:49 PM   #10
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This is all really helpful! I never new about most of these laws so this is interesting. I知 planning on getting the bus as soon as I can afford it, while also have enough left in my savings for other future responsibilities, as well as the money to renovate it. There is a small chance I will be getting it as soon as I get my license, but more likely half a year to a year later. This question mainly stemmed from my dad saying he痴 not sure if I知 able to legally drive such a big vehicle as soon as I get my license. I値l definitely keep researching!
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Old 05-06-2024, 07:07 PM   #11
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interesting you have to register it...
I don't disagree with that. I'm just trying to steer the kid in the right direction based on what they said in their post,
Quote:
I’m super motivated to get a 4 window mini school bus when I get my license.
They'll be 16 or older, with a license, and ready to drive it. That's also why I agreed with you regarding insuring it. And it doesn't sound like the kid is trying to do some crazy build...
Quote:
I’d take out the passenger seats and add in regular car seats likely facing inward, max 6. In the back I just want an open space and i’m looking to add a ladder up to a platform on the roof.
So the super informative and in depth scenario and solution for holding off on registering it and just hanging onto the title to avoid annual excise tax doesn't really apply if the kid is wanting to drive it. The specific law regarding vehicle registration was in Chapter 90, Section 2 of the Massachusetts General Laws. I found it pretty quickly just browsing information for them.

Just me, but I'd rather suggest someone be cautious, rather than taking the chance of them potentially losing their license for up to 6 months and having a fine on top of that over potentially $60 in vehicle excise tax each year based on a suggestion of mine.

I'd personally prefer to register the vehicle, or any vehicle, I purchased and have it titled in my name as soon as possible anyway. Even if I don't or can't physically drive it to avoid the small possibility of a previous owner filing for a lost title and then popping up to retrieve it. OR in the worst case scenario, a total loss, having proof of ownership for home owners insurance.
Quote:
There is a small chance I will be getting it as soon as I get my license, but more likely half a year to a year later. This question mainly stemmed from my dad saying he’s not sure if I’m able to legally drive such a big vehicle as soon as I get my license. I’ll definitely keep researching!
Your GVWR on a 4 window short bus will likely be somewhere around 10,000lbs. With your standard (class D) driver's license, you can legally own and operate any vehicle with a GVWR up to 26,000lbs. So you're good, friend.
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Old 05-06-2024, 07:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai_2024! View Post
This is all really helpful! I never new about most of these laws so this is interesting. I知 planning on getting the bus as soon as I can afford it, while also have enough left in my savings for other future responsibilities, as well as the money to renovate it. There is a small chance I will be getting it as soon as I get my license, but more likely half a year to a year later. This question mainly stemmed from my dad saying he痴 not sure if I知 able to legally drive such a big vehicle as soon as I get my license. I値l definitely keep researching!

so generally (you can check with your DMV to be sure).. a regular driver license can drive a bus or truck if it meets a couple guidelines..


1. - its under 26000 lbs GVWR (commercial vehicles are rated by their weight capacity.. each oine will have a rating.. usually on a tag above the driver window.. it will have the GVWR rating of the bus.. a 4 window Van-based bus will be under the 26000 lbs GVWR rating..


2. 15 passengers (including driver) and under.. now this is where it gets a little hairy.. each state is different.. the bus as its built will have its passenger capacity on that same tag above the driver window... so for school kids, full width school bus seats are usually 3 to a seat.. so a bus with 7 seats (often the leftmost rear seat is left our or is a half width).. (4 on one side, 3 on the other) is would be 21 passenger plus the driver.. and a half seat in the left rear would make it a 23 passenger bus..


a wheel chair bus is often less because the lift itself takes up seating space as do wheelchairs which tie down to the floor.. the bus may only have a couple regular seats...



in *OHIO* if you take out seats and re-seat it for 15 or less then thats how they determine the capacity and how you register it... and the license to drive it..



in *MICHIGAN* they go based on the tagged capacity even if you only have 1 seat, they still consider it a 23 passenger bus if thats what the placard says..


im not sure how MASS does it... your plan to put regular car seats in it may work? i know they have pretty strict weight classifications too there... you'll just have to talk to your local DMV when you get close to buying about what requires a CDL license in mass and what requires your vehicle to be registered as commercial or not.. its research you can do ahead of time...



if you plan to make a camper out of it alot of these thigns are exempt as motorhomes and RV's get a pass.. but it would have to converted into a motorhome with mass state requirements fulfilled..
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Old 05-07-2024, 09:31 AM   #13
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In Alabama, you have to be 19 years old, or married if younger, to be "contractable". In other words your signature on legal documents is not valid until you reach 19 or are married.

So-- technically if I sold a vehicle to a minor, and they paid me cash, at any point in the future if this person came back and wanted their money back, I would not have a legal basis to stand on-- and would have to refund the money-- because any bill of sale, or financing document, or titling document would not be valid. And to ad insult to injury, they would not have to return the vehicle, and it could be wrecked. Makes no difference. Now, I have not ever had this happen-- but legally it could.... we never sell cars to minors...

The seller here would be the one at risk, not the buyer.

That's how it is here. I've been selling cars for over 43 years.
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Old 05-08-2024, 09:52 PM   #14
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In Alabama, you have to be 19 years old, or married if younger, to be "contractable". In other words your signature on legal documents is not valid until you reach 19 or are married.

So-- technically if I sold a vehicle to a minor, and they paid me cash, at any point in the future if this person came back and wanted their money back, I would not have a legal basis to stand on-- and would have to refund the money-- because any bill of sale, or financing document, or titling document would not be valid. And to ad insult to injury, they would not have to return the vehicle, and it could be wrecked. Makes no difference. Now, I have not ever had this happen-- but legally it could.... we never sell cars to minors...

The seller here would be the one at risk, not the buyer.

That's how it is here. I've been selling cars for over 43 years.
That sounds really dumb. Are there no kids that own their cars at 16? How do they buy them? Surely they own cars at that age in your state.
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