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Old 10-08-2020, 01:22 AM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Bus choices, mobile shop

Hey there. I'm new to the whole skoolie thing, but have been looking at making one for a while as a mobile home and workshop (I like to work oncars n stuff like that). Im not too worried about costs, as I'll be working on this project for a while as I'm in college living with my parents for now, and I'll be going into grad school, so I'll have plenty of time to save up money.

So far, ive been looking at options, and know a few basic things regarding my situation:
  • I need plenty of length to fit a small car garage in the back
  • plenty of space to work underneath the bus, mostly for frame reinforcement and engine modifications
  • off-road capability
  • I won't move the bus too often once I park it, hence the car space
  • I have enough mechanical experience to modify, repair, and swap drivetrain components
  • I don't have any experience fabricating parts / welding, but I should soon.

Anything helps. I will be reading general info on this forum again after I post this.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:08 AM   #2
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If I follow you correctly:


- You want a space in the back that you can drive a small car INTO and work on the car inside. This is possible, and it has been done. It will take up a lot of "home" space.



- You want off-road capability. Please define. Do you mean dirt roads or 4x4?


- You will not be moving it often and thus will be using the car which may or may not be parked inside the bus when the bus is parked.


What frame and engine modifications do you expect you will be needing?
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:20 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
If I follow you correctly:


- You want a space in the back that you can drive a small car INTO and work on the car inside. This is possible, and it has been done. It will take up a lot of "home" space.



- You want off-road capability. Please define. Do you mean dirt roads or 4x4?


- You will not be moving it often and thus will be using the car which may or may not be parked inside the bus when the bus is parked.


What frame and engine modifications do you expect you will be needing?
I expect a lot of home space to be taken up. I plan on living by myself in the bus, and I already live out of a dining room, so anything above 10ft in length is an upgrade.

Off-road, as in dirt road and field/forest conditions. I would think I'd need to modify the drivetrain to be AWD capable for this.

And correct. When moving the bus from time to time, the car will be anchored in the back, hopefully, front likely facing backwards for accessibility.

I expect I would need to modify or replace the motor to handle the extra consistent ~5000lb of weight being applied on-road, with enough torque and wheel surface to handle a 20% or lower grade (mild slope - not uncommon off -road). Likely a C12 swap, especially if the bus in question has a C7 (unreliable post '07 due to emissions equipment). As for frame modifications, the addition of anchor points for the car will be necessary, and extension / replacement of the axles to convert wheelwell space into flat, usable (in the case of a car) space without lifting the bus higher than reasonable.

I've made some quick sketches on the topic. I used a Bluebird FE 90 passenger for reference in the image.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 16021415649446584278558588457228.jpg (130.3 KB, 28 views)
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Old 10-08-2020, 04:15 AM   #4
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Bear in mind that a C7 is 42.9" long, 38.8" wide, and 38.2" tall and weighs 425 pounds. A C12 is 50.6" long, 35.68" wide, and 41.85" tall and weighs 2070 pounds. So you would have to make considerable changes to the engine compartment as well as the front suspension to house a C12. With the increased power output, you would probably need to replace the transmission as well.
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Old 10-08-2020, 04:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Bear in mind that a C7 is 42.9" long, 38.8" wide, and 38.2" tall and weighs 425 pounds. A C12 is 50.6" long, 35.68" wide, and 41.85" tall and weighs 2070 pounds. So you would have to make considerable changes to the engine compartment as well as the front suspension to house a C12. With the increased power output, you would probably need to replace the transmission as well.
The suspension/axle is kind of an easy one. Swapping a steer axle / suspension and various related bits from a Class 8 road tractor shouldn't be too hard for someone with the tools, know-how and capability.

Lots of late-model Volvo and Navistar tractors wind up getting scrapped, and most all of them have the same frame and underpinnings. Maybe do one better and throw in some air-ride bits from a Prevost or VanHool. I think it may be necessary to double-up the rail at least from the firewall to the bumper if the frame is a lighter-duty, but GVWR may figure into whether it is necessary or not.

One member here actually Frankensteined an '07 Class 7 Kenworth tuck's mechanicals into their 86 Ford B-bus. I think their build actually lengthened the KW's frame to fit and dropped the bus body down onto it.
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Old 10-08-2020, 07:54 AM   #6
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I know it is not what you asked, but why not an enclosed car trailer, and a short bus to pull it? Full size short bus not van cutaway. I got a short bus cheap without engine or trans, and plan eventaully to put a 6-71 detroit in it. This will give it great towing ability.
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Old 10-08-2020, 01:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
Bear in mind that a C7 is 42.9" long, 38.8" wide, and 38.2" tall and weighs 425 pounds. A C12 is 50.6" long, 35.68" wide, and 41.85" tall and weighs 2070 pounds. So you would have to make considerable changes to the engine compartment as well as the front suspension to house a C12. With the increased power output, you would probably need to replace the transmission as well.
That's expected. It certainly adds to the long run cost, but I have considered modifying the suspension all the way around to handle 15,000lb extra, likely from a tractor trailer and semi truck. I'm not sure whether brand matters, but Kenworth and Peterbilt make some very sturdy suspension components for their trucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
The suspension/axle is kind of an easy one. Swapping a steer axle / suspension and various related bits from a Class 8 road tractor shouldn't be too hard for someone with the tools, know-how and capability.

Lots of late-model Volvo and Navistar tractors wind up getting scrapped, and most all of them have the same frame and underpinnings. Maybe do one better and throw in some air-ride bits from a Prevost or VanHool. I think it may be necessary to double-up the rail at least from the firewall to the bumper if the frame is a lighter-duty, but GVWR may figure into whether it is necessary or not.

One member here actually Frankensteined an '07 Class 7 Kenworth tuck's mechanicals into their 86 Ford B-bus. I think their build actually lengthened the KW's frame to fit and dropped the bus body down onto it.
The swap shouldn't be too difficult, no. However, finding the components may be time consuming, as where I live, there aren't too many truck yards.

As for doubling up frame rails, I was thinking of doing something similar to that using scrapped tractor trailer components, or another bus frame if not much more support is needed. The air ride bits may be nice, though there's always a blowout risk with those.

That member's project sounds interesting. I might use a method similar to that if I don't come up with one better.
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Old 10-08-2020, 03:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by bonesjones View Post
That's expected. It certainly adds to the long run cost, but I have considered modifying the suspension all the way around to handle 15,000lb extra, likely from a tractor trailer and semi truck. I'm not sure whether brand matters, but Kenworth and Peterbilt make some very sturdy suspension components for their trucks.

The swap shouldn't be too difficult, no. However, finding the components may be time consuming, as where I live, there aren't too many truck yards.

As for doubling up frame rails, I was thinking of doing something similar to that using scrapped tractor trailer components, or another bus frame if not much more support is needed. The air ride bits may be nice, though there's always a blowout risk with those.

That member's project sounds interesting. I might use a method similar to that if I don't come up with one better.
Meritor makes the lion's share if not all, of axles, fifth wheels, etc. Pretty much the only thing that Paccar, Volvo, Navistar, etc. make themselves is the engine (where applicable), the cab / interior / hood. That's pretty much it. The components made by Paccar that have the nice Paccar stamping on them are nothing more than suspension shackles to secure the axle to the frame.

I believe the thread I'm referring to is titled 86 Ford 07 Kenworth, at least in part.

I have 400k plus miles in 18-wheelers. Zero air bag blowouts, though I have yet to operate a rig that had air ride on the steer axle. But every single road tractor I've operated had air-ride on the drives. I've seen air suspension bags fail occasionally on tour buses, but usually on the tag axle when a driver boo-boo tried to make the suspension do something it wasn't meant to do.

Air suspension failures are actually quite rare on commercial vehicles, contrary to what most might think. Ford and GM have had several systems on their higher-end vehicles over the years. Ford in particular has been noted for a high failure rate in these systems, but they have very little in common with that of a commercial vehicle. So there's really not much to worry about.
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Old 10-08-2020, 04:31 PM   #9
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You may wish to look into a 4x4 Dump Truck for drivetrain components. The last one I worked on was a GMC Topkick (former Dump truck with a Generator mounted in place of the dump bed) with separate transfer case mounted in the middle of the truck. Everything looked pretty transferable to something else. It was a C7S with a MD3060, so I can't say if the whole setup would hold up in a class 7 application tho.
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Old 10-08-2020, 05:10 PM   #10
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Or look for something else that isn't a School Bus..why do you want your car parked in your bedroom? And not use a trailer?
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Old 10-08-2020, 06:27 PM   #11
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the swap thread is dave and kenny 07 kenworth.
your idea has been done but i would think for forest roads and some off road you would be better with a shorter bus and the car on a trailer.
i am researching donor vehicles for one of my buses now and am very interested in finding an electrical pole line truck.
4x4,pto,leveling jacks, and alot of other stuff.
most have alot of hours but its probably not mileage but working hours with the boom.
and most of them are well maintained for many reasons but safety and reliability.
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Old 10-08-2020, 08:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
Meritor makes the lion's share if not all, of axles, fifth wheels, etc. Pretty much the only thing that Paccar, Volvo, Navistar, etc. make themselves is the engine (where applicable), the cab / interior / hood. That's pretty much it. The components made by Paccar that have the nice Paccar stamping on them are nothing more than suspension shackles to secure the axle to the frame.

I believe the thread I'm referring to is titled 86 Ford 07 Kenworth, at least in part.

I have 400k plus miles in 18-wheelers. Zero air bag blowouts, though I have yet to operate a rig that had air ride on the steer axle. But every single road tractor I've operated had air-ride on the drives. I've seen air suspension bags fail occasionally on tour buses, but usually on the tag axle when a driver boo-boo tried to make the suspension do something it wasn't meant to do.

Air suspension failures are actually quite rare on commercial vehicles, contrary to what most might think. Ford and GM have had several systems on their higher-end vehicles over the years. Ford in particular has been noted for a high failure rate in these systems, but they have very little in common with that of a commercial vehicle. So there's really not much to worry about.
Noted. I wasn't sure how sturdy an air ride would be, especially off road, and how it would behave when the bus was parked on a grade. My biggest concern was the potential for shear across the lateral surface of the airbag (think side to side), which might tear the bag, or at least cause unnecessary stress to other suspension components.

As for common Meritor components, what's the usual cost range for a used, possibly damaged components, e.g. from a truck lot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker4449 View Post
You may wish to look into a 4x4 Dump Truck for drivetrain components. The last one I worked on was a GMC Topkick (former Dump truck with a Generator mounted in place of the dump bed) with separate transfer case mounted in the middle of the truck. Everything looked pretty transferable to something else. It was a C7S with a MD3060, so I can't say if the whole setup would hold up in a class 7 application tho.
Alright, I'll look into it. I've seen quite a few lying about in people's yards, typically unused for long periods of time. The engine is of little concern of course, as long as the frame, transfer case, etc. are in good shape. I'm not knowledgable about application classes by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeNimble View Post
Or look for something else that isn't a School Bus..why do you want your car parked in your bedroom? And not use a trailer?
I don't mind having my car parked in my bedroom, if it means I can access it for repairs and modifications. I did mention I planned on using this bus as a mobile workshop as well. Not to mention... I don't want anyone to see the car openly, let alone have access to it, when I'm sleeping inside. I'd prefer the reduced risk of theft, and if nobody knows about the car, let alone has access to it... There's almost no risk.

Also, if the car isn't parked in that space, I can use that space for other things, such as woodwork and crafts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223 View Post
the swap thread is dave and kenny 07 kenworth.
your idea has been done but i would think for forest roads and some off road you would be better with a shorter bus and the car on a trailer.
i am researching donor vehicles for one of my buses now and am very interested in finding an electrical pole line truck.
4x4,pto,leveling jacks, and alot of other stuff.
most have alot of hours but its probably not mileage but working hours with the boom.
and most of them are well maintained for many reasons but safety and reliability.
I understand what you mean, but as stated above, the risk of theft is greater than handling from what I'm working with. Mind, the car won't exactly be cheap when I'm done with it... Prototype components and other things are going into it in the future.

Electrical pole truck? As far as I know, those are usually F-350 and F-450 based vehicles. I might look into them myself. Crane trucks interest me, due to their need for balancing dynamic loads.
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Old 10-08-2020, 11:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by bonesjones View Post
Alright, I'll look into it. I've seen quite a few lying about in people's yards, typically unused for long periods of time. The engine is of little concern of course, as long as the frame, transfer case, etc. are in good shape. I'm not knowledgable about application classes by the way.
Classes refer to the average Gross Weight Rating in a grouping way. School buses fall in the middle of the scale at about 4 to 6. Class 7 and up refers to full size semi trucks like what you will find the C13 in.

On aside, most commercial diesel engines come in multiple power ratings, with RVs and Fire Trucks typically having the highest available ratings. School buses generally do not come with much more than 250HP. IIRC the C7 can be found with up to 350 HP and 900 ft lbs of torque. Cummins can be found in the same neighborhood. Personally I think that is more than plenty of power for a school bus with a car in it, but feel free to swap things if you want, be unique!


Quote:
I don't mind having my car parked in my bedroom, if it means I can access it for repairs and modifications. I did mention I planned on using this bus as a mobile workshop as well. Not to mention... I don't want anyone to see the car openly, let alone have access to it, when I'm sleeping inside. I'd prefer the reduced risk of theft, and if nobody knows about the car, let alone has access to it... There's almost no risk.

Also, if the car isn't parked in that space, I can use that space for other things, such as woodwork and crafts.
I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but it can be rather tight working on the sides of a car inside a bus body. There's a fellow called Aging Wheels on YouTube who is doing a car hauler skoolie build and early on decided to do an open deck design because of internal body clearances. Wall to wall on the inside of my buses is about 90 inches.


Quote:
Electrical pole truck? As far as I know, those are usually F-350 and F-450 based vehicles. I might look into them myself. Crane trucks interest me, due to their need for balancing dynamic loads.
They can be much larger chassises too, Freightliner, International, even Peterbilt and Kenworth. There's a company in my area running Freightliners with ridiculously, gigantic swamp tires. They're fun to meet on a narrow two lane road...
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Old 10-08-2020, 11:33 PM   #14
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Classes refer to the average Gross Weight Rating in a grouping way. School buses fall in the middle of the scale at about 4 to 6. Class 7 and up refers to full size semi trucks like what you will find the C13 in.

On aside, most commercial diesel engines come in multiple power ratings, with RVs and Fire Trucks typically having the highest available ratings. School buses generally do not come with much more than 250HP. IIRC the C7 can be found with up to 350 HP and 900 ft lbs of torque. Cummins can be found in the same neighborhood. Personally I think that is more than plenty of power for a school bus with a car in it, but feel free to swap things if you want, be unique!



I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but it can be rather tight working on the sides of a car inside a bus body. There's a fellow called Aging Wheels on YouTube who is doing a car hauler skoolie build and early on decided to do an open deck design because of internal body clearances. Wall to wall on the inside of my buses is about 90 inches.



They can be much larger chassises too, Freightliner, International, even Peterbilt and Kenworth. There's a company in my area running Freightliners with ridiculously, gigantic swamp tires. They're fun to meet on a narrow two lane road...
Okay, that's fair. Do classes affect licensure, taxation, or anything of that sort? If they do, I might modify the design later to fit into lower classes.

There's also probably plenty of power in a stock C7 or 5.9L Cummins to handle the additional weight of a car and furniture, though it's probably safer to err on the side of caution. As I won't be driving it too often, the amount of fuel the engine uses when driving shouldn't be a problem. I may also use the engine as a generator when not driving around, but that isn't a certainty. That just feeds into the existing precautions list.

As for being unique: I don't mind that. As long as it fits my needs, and isn't run-of-the-mill, I should be set. Since I've just started working on the details of this project, there's still plenty of flexibility in options. I may modify the car space of the bus to have removable / rollable / platform walls to make better space when open, like those rooftop camper things they sell for RVs, only for the sides of the bus. It would reduce height clearance significantly, but not enough to be an issue, since I'm not that tall. I may make some more sketches tonight on this topic.

It's good to know that pole trucks can use heavy duty platforms as well... May feed into purchase decisions down the line.
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Old 10-09-2020, 12:28 AM   #15
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Noted. I wasn't sure how sturdy an air ride would be, especially off road, and how it would behave when the bus was parked on a grade. My biggest concern was the potential for shear across the lateral surface of the airbag (think side to side), which might tear the bag, or at least cause unnecessary stress to other suspension components.

As for common Meritor components, what's the usual cost range for a used, possibly damaged components, e.g. from a truck lot?
A complete air-ride system swap should level itself to the best of its ability. As to used components possibly being damaged, that is why I suggested late-model Volvo and NaviStar.

Engine, electrical and DPF fires are quite common with these, and the fires are generally confined to the cab and sleeper, not affecting the suspension and axles like a rollover or jackknife. Also look for trucks that have been 'topped' (low-bridge).

You might also consider military 2-1/2 tonners if you want a front differential / transfer case. Factory-equipped 4x4 / 4x6 setups may also have nice goodies like wider wheels and high-flotation tires that are good to have, just know the off-road tires do not last as long on pavement and are more expensive.
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Old 10-09-2020, 03:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON View Post
A complete air-ride system swap should level itself to the best of its ability. As to used components possibly being damaged, that is why I suggested late-model Volvo and NaviStar.

Engine, electrical and DPF fires are quite common with these, and the fires are generally confined to the cab and sleeper, not affecting the suspension and axles like a rollover or jackknife. Also look for trucks that have been 'topped' (low-bridge).

You might also consider military 2-1/2 tonners if you want a front differential / transfer case. Factory-equipped 4x4 / 4x6 setups may also have nice goodies like wider wheels and high-flotation tires that are good to have, just know the off-road tires do not last as long on pavement and are more expensive.
Ok, cool. I kinda missed that when I read it the first time... that's what I get for being up at 2 in the morning. In any case, those were cases I was considering... I wonder how much such damage would reduce the cost of components.

2 1/2 ton trucks are pretty sturdy from my experience, though of course finding one with the right transfer case for the job will be the hard part. I would expect the off-road tires to not last nearly as long on pavement... Perhaps I will carry the off-road tires until in the vicinity of the off-road portion of each trip.

I've done some more design and review work. Images attached are what I have done so far.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 16022283120953016884847110928224.jpg (105.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 16022283236574790766563054135540.jpg (115.7 KB, 5 views)
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Old 10-14-2020, 04:45 PM   #17
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Being serious buy an actual medium duty or class 8 chassis box truck for the room

I am back looking at them.
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:44 AM   #18
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Being serious buy an actual medium duty or class 8 chassis box truck for the room

I am back looking at them.
For the car room? That could work, but I'd be short space to live in.

For the frame? Absolutely. The big issue is total space.

On a side note, I found a bus near me for $1150. It runs, meets my length needs, and is a flat nose. The only issue I was told it had, was a lack of functioning air brakes.
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:12 AM   #19
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The price is great ... but you may have to tow it if you can not fix the brakes in the field. ... but you already know this.


Do you know if it runs? Does that matter to you?
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:21 AM   #20
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The price is great ... but you may have to tow it if you can not fix the brakes in the field. ... but you already know this.


Do you know if it runs? Does that matter to you?
The owner says that it runs. It was used for carrying people and canoes for boat trips not too long ago. If I need to tow it, it might cost a bit, but possibly less than I'd have to pay in gas to get it back home.
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