Bus Not Starting or Turning - Page 2

kidharris · 12-11-2019, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Ha, I was going insane the other day trying to get my bus to start, eventually realized I had turned it off while it was still in "D".

Rental car, drove it all day, multiple start/stops, wouldn't start, check in N, P, try everything, starting to wig out because civilization is 50 miles away, realized I didn't have foot on brake. stupid.

TheHubbardBus · 12-12-2019, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddmaxx

Tell that to the mothers that gave their children baby formula laced with MDMA

You don't happen to know the brand, lot number, & nearest location where this milk can be purchased, do you?

OP, it's simple to check your battery voltage, so it's really the first thing you should have done, & the first thing you should do before going further. But I'm inclined to believe it's not the problem. If it was just 'low', you should get the starter solenoid at least trying to engage, and if it's so low it can't, I don't think those dash lights & buzzers would be nearly as perky.

99% chance it's something you did w/ the wiring. And the fact you have switch components un-grounded now where before they were would be my first thing to investigate. Well... 2nd. Check the battery voltage (takes 10 seconds).

Bon Voyage · 12-12-2019, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddmaxx

Is nobody going to address the "Elephant in the Room"??

Did I hear right? You are driving a 11,000lb front heavy beast up on a PLASTIC Ramp.. so you can crawl under it??

Some are rated for 16,000 pound vehicles. And they rate them by the whole weight of the vehicle, I’d rather they just say what what the ramps themselves can hold. Maybe they’d hold my bus

How’s getting it started?

o1marc · 12-12-2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bon Voyage

Some are rated for 16,000 pound vehicles. And they rate them by the whole weight of the vehicle, I’d rather they just say what what the ramps themselves can hold. Maybe they’d hold my bus

How’s getting it started?

The ramps do have a rated load, no matter what the GVW is of the vehicle. If a vehicle weighs 2000lbs, with 70/30 f/r weight ratio. The front weighs 1400, the rear, 600. Can I use a 1000lb ramp on the rear?

Bon Voyage · 12-13-2019, 01:30 AM

Is that a trick question? Answer: yes, 600 lbs can go on a ramp rated for 1000 lbs.

The ramps I was looking at buying just give a gross vehicle weight that the ramps will support, no specific ramp rating. Seems they just want to put a bigger number on the box.

banman · 12-13-2019, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bon Voyage

Is that a trick question? Answer: yes, 600 lbs can go on a ramp rated for 1000 lbs.

The ramps I was looking at buying just give a gross vehicle weight that the ramps will support, no specific ramp rating. Seems they just want to put a bigger number on the box.

An item that does not give a straight forward rating is an item I would be leary of...

roscobus · 12-13-2019, 11:05 AM

Update: One battery was very low and the other was decent after testing the charge. Batteries were charged overnight and they charged just fine. They are less than a year old.

Shorted solenoid underneath bus - started turning over, but didn't fire. All fuses in power distribution are good. Is this a mechanical issue? Or because of that deadbolt?

It would be ideal to take the emergency wiring out...but I don't want to do that before the bus is refusing to start.

ol trunt · 12-13-2019, 11:15 AM

Sounds like it's related to your wire work. Wasn't there a ground issue at some point? I can't remember. It's good news that the engine turns over--nothing really wrong you can't figure out.
Jack

Bon Voyage · 12-13-2019, 01:50 PM

Try putting the key in the ignition in the “on” position then turning the starter like you did and see if it keeps running. If it does run then you know it’s something keeping power from the starter which could be a few things including the emergency exit wiring, starter solenoid...

Is this a Powerstroke 6.0 liter engine?

roscobus · 12-13-2019, 07:07 PM

Yep. Almost certain it's electrical. I took some pics after playing with it this afternoon: https://imgur.com/a/lPP6PR4

No buzzer sounds regardless if the deadbolt is engaged or not. It does nothing. Screwing the hot wire into the frame sounds a much louder alarm in the main power panel. The wire is labeled - and I can't find that wire in the main power above the driver's seat.

Diver&Driver · 12-13-2019, 07:34 PM

Take a hammer. Hit your starter. NOT the hot ends or negative ends. The main body ONLY. Not hard. Like you would see in The Three Stooges. Had an issue in the cold with my 88 mustang. This can be a common issue. Your vehicle is newer, so it shouldn't have an issue like this, but you are showing symptoms of this. Cold weather will cause funky things to happen to any vehicle. I have a different rubber gasket shrink and cause leaks every start of the cold season LOL

Ensure your batteries are not on metal. They will drain slowly. You can go to the junkyard and yank a battery box that has a vent already on it for cheap.

I love working on vehicles and diagnosing, so feel free to reach out to me if you want to do a video call and go over things!

ol trunt · 12-13-2019, 08:21 PM

"Ensure your batteries are not on metal. They will drain slowly."

Myth busters proved conclusively that this is not true unless the battery is drooling sulfuric acid down the side thereby making contact with metal (or wood, or concrete) which is grounded somehow to the negative terminal of the battery. It's time we got that wives tale put to bed.
Jack

TheHubbardBus · 12-13-2019, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roscobus

Update: One battery was very low and the other was decent after testing the charge. Batteries were charged overnight and they charged just fine. They are less than a year old.

What exactly, in volts, is 'very low', and 'decent'? For reference, depending on temp, 12.7-12.8v is fully charged, 12.0 would be 75% discharged, & 11.8 completely dead

When you say 'charged just fine', what was the voltage after charging? Did you let them rest for a while before measuring?

How were the batteries tested? I'm assuming you pulled them out & tested them individually. Otherwise if still wired in parallel you should see the same voltage across both.

Speaking of which, why are your two batteries, which I assume were wired in parallel, testing at substantially different voltages? That's a question, and possibly an answer. Assuming two batteries in descent condition, if there's a voltage differential, one should 'charge' the other until there isn't.

TheHubbardBus · 12-13-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diver&Driver

Take a hammer. Hit your starter. NOT the hot ends or negative ends. The main body ONLY. Not hard. Like you would see in The Three Stooges. Had an issue in the cold with my 88 mustang. This can be a common issue. Your vehicle is newer, so it shouldn't have an issue like this, but you are showing symptoms of this.

Likely a sticking solenoid. Your taps on the body could have been enough to shake it loose. Probably have achieved the same or better result tapping directly on the solenoid itself. If there was something internal to your starter that the hammer was 'fixing', it would indicate a significant problem that would not last much longer without failing completely.

In the case at hand, a sticking solenoid is certainly a possibility. It could explain why you couldn't hear the solenoid engaging in the video. But based on everything else the OP has stated, I don't believe it's the most likely possibility. What we do know: the bus started fine multiple times before being demo'd, which involved - among other things - removal / damage to wiring. Then it didn't start. I'd be surprised if the problem was not caused in some way by the work that was done.

Diver&Driver · 12-13-2019, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ol trunt

"Ensure your batteries are not on metal. They will drain slowly."

MythBusters proved conclusively that this is not true unless the battery is drooling sulfuric acid down the side thereby making contact with metal (or wood, or concrete) which is grounded somehow to the negative terminal of the battery. It's time we got that wives tale put to bed.
Jack

That show was amazing! Very interesting. I knew concrete was debunked, but never knew someone debunked metal. You definitely won't see me putting batteries, or anything electrical, on metal, ever. I don't care how good technology has become with how batteries are built LOL

Hubbard,

It is just a process of elimination that takes no time. Easy steps are my favorite to take first. Wire chasing being the most difficult, but also kinda fun. Mmmm, yes. The Solenoids also love to fail and get tapped by a hammer. I had 3 starters go bad compared to 1 solenoid, so I have a vendetta hahaha

Also, if the tapping gets it to start, problem found.

Edit: If you are also worried like I am about the storage of active batteries on metal, all of my batteries sit in Edit (LOL) polyethylene/plastic boxes. Forgot to add that.

TheHubbardBus · 12-13-2019, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diver&Driver

You definitely won't see me putting batteries, or anything electrical, on metal, ever. I don't care how good technology has become with how batteries are built LOL

Not that Trunt needs me backing him up to say he's right, but for the casual reader who may not know how sharp he is: he's right. Not picking on you, D&D, but batteries don't discharge through the metal they sit on. Assuming, of course, their non-conductive case is intact. The OP has enough complication w/o worrying about stuff that simply isn't true.

I'm also not sure what you mean about 'not putting anything electrical on metal, ever', particularly in the context of an automotive electrical system where literally everything electrical shares a common ground. But again, your reservations are unfounded.

Diver&Driver · 12-13-2019, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Not that Trunt needs me backing him up to say he's right, but for the casual reader who may not know how sharp he is: he's right. Not picking on you, D&D, but batteries don't discharge through the metal they sit on. Assuming, of course, their non-conductive case is intact. The OP has enough complication w/o worrying about stuff that simply isn't true.

I'm also not sure what you mean about 'not putting anything electrical on metal, ever', particularly in the context of an automotive electrical system where literally everything electrical shares a common ground. But again, your reservations are unfounded.

I didn't say it wasn't true, but I appreciate you clarifying that. I simply stated I won't put a highly conductive device on metal, in a metal battery box, or give the battery the opportunity to be too close to metal.

As always, I appreciate your feedback.

Bon Voyage · 12-14-2019, 12:31 AM

“Generally the ignition system” start watching at about 4:30 in this video for a couple minutes. If it’s not the bus wiring... make sure the hood is closed, mine won’t start when open...

https://youtu.be/PEXI9tHMfRI

roscobus · 12-14-2019, 11:23 AM

Voltage was testing at 12.0 on both, tested separately. The batteries are not at fault - when we shorted the solenoid, the engine turned very quickly, but didn't fire. Something is keeping it from firing, which is why I'm so convinced it's due to the wiring.

The manufacturer was bought out by another company (US Bus to Trans Tech) and the new company won't return my phone calls. Lol

Is there any way to remove the wire completely and bypass the entire back door/emergency wiring? I would just like it gone. The cut-and-start method won't work considering it can't start, but is there one box I can disconnect to bypass in the meantime?

TheHubbardBus · 12-14-2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roscobus

Voltage was testing at 12.0 on both, tested separately. The batteries are not at fault - when we shorted the solenoid, the engine turned very quickly, but didn't fire. Something is keeping it from firing, which is why I'm so convinced it's due to the wiring.

As I said above, 12.0V is a 25% SOC (state of charge). Assuming your voltage measurement was correct, they are/were almost dead at 12.0V.

Also, what you just said contradicts what you said earlier, regarding one voltage being 'very low', and the other 'ok'.

I said it before but I'll say it again: 2 batteries wired in parallel should NOT be at significantly different voltages. Something's wrong with the batteries, their wiring, your measurements, or your explanation of the situation.

I believe you're likely right in your belief it's wiring related, as reasoned above. But it's pointless to try to track down starting issues when the condition of your batteries is in question. And if nothing else, allowing them to discharge as low as 12.0V is very detrimental to their lifespan.

An engine needs power for more things than the starter to start. You can't rule out battery condition as a factor based on the engine turning over when you jump the solenoid.

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