Bus Seat Upgrade

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by Veloc

He won't have to tell the insurance company about it. As soon as they see that seat after an accident, they'll void the policy as improper equipment. The most that might get paid is liability for the other party, but forget about any medical bill coverage from either side's insurance company.



But, as everyone else says, that'll be the bus owner's problem. What will be interesting is if someone else drives the bus and is injured. That's where we'll (well, he'll) start hearing terms like "criminal liability."



Mind you, I'm a fan of repurposing things, doing your own thing and saving a few bucks, but there are some places where you spend the money and use what's correct. A seat on a moving vehicle is definitely one of those places. That seat would be better used somewhere else in the bus, like as extra seating when parked. Office seats have a typical weight limit of 250lbs, and they will break if a 300lb person uses them. Hell, I'm 225lbs and those 250lb seats make sounds quite a lot like a submarine hitting the red line on the depth gauge if I sit down in them too hard.

It was never about saving $.
Nor was it about repurposing.
It was and is all about having seat that breathes and is cool and comfortable in a blazing hot bus.

I built something that was unavailable, with a Spirt of innovation, creativity and resourcefulness. Your criticism may well be valid and safe. But it does not offer me any options that offer me what I want, which is a seat that is cool and comfortable in an oven.

I come from the world of building hot rods. I have made lots of seats for them, and no one has ever said anything about improper equipment. People put bomber seats in their hot rods all the time. I have never ever heard anything about an insurance company canceling the policy or refusing to pay because people use them. Maybe they do, but I have been in the hobby for 20 years and have not heard of it. In the So-cal and speedway catalogs there is no disclaimer saying that if you put bomber seats or dune buggy seats in your car followed by what you have said to me, or “off road use only”.

So yes, I am rubbed the wrong way. Mostly because we live in a world where people look to cover themselves and others with laws and lawsuits.

And also because what I have done will be better than the OE seat and belt that it came with.

I am 129 lbs.

It is true that putting an oe seat will avoid the possibility of a problem, but it will also most certainly not be more comfortable.

[shorthair]

If comfort is important you might try for a newer take-out from a semi, if you look you can find one with heat and cooling built-in with multiple adjustable pneumatic lumbar bags with air ride.

[TheHubbardBus]

That's awesome! Great work!

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by shorthair

If comfort is important you might try for a newer take-out from a semi, if you look you can find one with heat and cooling built-in with multiple adjustable pneumatic lumbar bags with air ride.

I will certainly look into that!

Thank you

[ChurchBuz]

I have looked at various sites, even eBay. The pickings are slim on seats with cooling. I found one with “ventilation” but that could mean a lot of things.

I will keep looking.

But the issue here is that what I have built does not look like a car or bus seat.

I can go get a seat out of my pick and pay junkyard, remove the upholstery, and replace the foam with reticulated foam that breaths, and then reupholster it in phifphertex so that I can blow significant amounts of air through it, and I will be fine.

It will look like a car seat, because it is.

[ChurchBuz]

My second chat with a semi seat sales person failed to yield any seats with cooling, and they sold takeout seats.

Please help me find a source for these takeout seats with cooling. A link would be great.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by ChurchBuz

I found one with “ventilation” but that could mean a lot of things.

My seat has ventilation: the holes I accidentally burned into it while welding.

[shorthair]

The seat coolers that I have used were a 3 speed fan which worked quite well.

[ChurchBuz]

I have the blower fans out of my AC, they should move enough air through ducts, and small vent holes.

At the moment, I am going with what I got, finishing the floor underneath the seat, then mounting the pedestal.

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by ChurchBuz

It was never about saving $.
Nor was it about repurposing.
It was and is all about having seat that breathes and is cool and comfortable in a blazing hot bus.

I built something that was unavailable, with a Spirt of innovation, creativity and resourcefulness. Your criticism may well be valid and safe. But it does not offer me any options that offer me what I want, which is a seat that is cool and comfortable in an oven.

I come from the world of building hot rods. I have made lots of seats for them, and no one has ever said anything about improper equipment. People put bomber seats in their hot rods all the time. I have never ever heard anything about an insurance company canceling the policy or refusing to pay because people use them. Maybe they do, but I have been in the hobby for 20 years and have not heard of it. In the So-cal and speedway catalogs there is no disclaimer saying that if you put bomber seats or dune buggy seats in your car followed by what you have said to me, or “off road use only”.

So yes, I am rubbed the wrong way. Mostly because we live in a world where people look to cover themselves and others with laws and lawsuits.

And also because what I have done will be better than the OE seat and belt that it came with.

I am 129 lbs.

It is true that putting an oe seat will avoid the possibility of a problem, but it will also most certainly not be more comfortable.

You'll just have to be rubbed the wrong way then. Just about any ventilated automotive seat will do what you want, but I can't suggest one to you because what you like may not be what I like. I weigh 225lbs, so there's a little bit of a difference between what I find comfortable and what you find comfortable. But then you should know that with your 20 years experience. Of course, if this is your way of saying you know better, I have 35 years experience in the hobby so... Office chairs aren't designed for automotive use, and using one is not innovative, it's dangerous. Even though the frame you built was an improvement on what you had, it's still dangerous. In an accident you will be thrown forward hard, then you will be thrown backwards hard, and that thin plastic will not soften the blow as you hit both it and that steel frame. But hey, it's your life, spend it how you want. If you want to spend yours in a wheelchair, that's your business.

[headdownlow0624]

Originally Posted by ChurchBuz

I have the blower fans out of my AC, they should move enough air through ducts, and small vent holes.

At the moment, I am going with what I got, finishing the floor underneath the seat, then mounting the pedestal.

The seat frame and headrest tube you fabricated look great. Keep up the good work.

Does the seat bottom attach at more points then just the armrest mounts? I imagine the resultant force of a front-impact would direct a good amount of force straight down (in addition to forward, assuming standard seat-belt installation practices, see pic attached). Automotive seats typically have foam directly below the fabric, and a bucket seat spring holding that. Your seat has elastomeric/polyester fabric on the seat bottom, which might fail first. If so, what does your butt hit next? If it's a very short fall to something that won't pierce/hurt your body, then I wouldn't worry about it.


The seat belts should manage the majority of your body mass. In a realistic, practical world, your seat should be just fine.

Here's the worry-some part of my brain that I normally drown out by twisting the throttle on my Harley harder:
If you sell it, liability may become an issue. Regardless of how strong the seat is, anything less than "As-Tested" by the feds will carry increased liability on your part (even if the bus was exempt from safety testing during manufacturing). You are modifying the bus. The seat is your design. A full liability release may be necessary, although a determined attorney may defeat that.

On the other hand, wooden dinette bench seats with seat belts typically fail in a severe collision. Manufacturers still sell structurally un-sound Class A motorhomes.
Ref: https://lifesaversconference.org/wp-...-OPC-08-04.pdf


Clear as mud? I'm not trying to provide direction here, just making sure these points are considered, if only for a minute, for the good of skoolie owners everywhere.

Keep posting your progress!

P.S. If anyone feels like going further on the subject, here's some good design guidelines:

https://fbtrial.com/wp-content/uploa...n-overview.pdf

Not American, but good information regardless:https://www.dsource.in/course/basic-...gth-capability

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by Veloc

You'll just have to be rubbed the wrong way then. Just about any ventilated automotive seat will do what you want, but I can't suggest one to you because what you like may not be what I like. I weigh 225lbs, so there's a little bit of a difference between what I find comfortable and what you find comfortable. But then you should know that with your 20 years experience. Of course, if this is your way of saying you know better, I have 35 years experience in the hobby so... Office chairs aren't designed for automotive use, and using one is not innovative, it's dangerous. Even though the frame you built was an improvement on what you had, it's still dangerous. In an accident you will be thrown forward hard, then you will be thrown backwards hard, and that thin plastic will not soften the blow as you hit both it and that steel frame. But hey, it's your life, spend it how you want. If you want to spend yours in a wheelchair, that's your business.

I have some experience, but I know that I don’t know everything.

I have been looking at seats because of your comments, despite my desire to rebel against the way that they were presented. I tend to get rubbed the wrong way people push too hard. I should have been more clear.

I said that you had valid points, and announced that I was rubbed the wrong way. Which was part my own resistance. “Frustrated” would have been a better word. My apologies.

I do not want to argue or pick stuff apart, I just want to build a skoolie.

I need encouragement, it really helps me.

I have plenty of time to get this sorted out, and I will.

I plan on inviting my agent over to see the bus. Most likely, the office chair will still be in it when he comes, it will be a good conversation.

No part of this post is meant to be sarcastic and I am not mad at you. How can you know what rubs me the wrong way.

[cadillackid]

me im just gonna order a truck seat because id rather build Air conditioners and Hot-rod my 7.3 than I would build seats kudos to anyone who uses their skills to build what they want.. whether its a seat or something else.. every skoolie is a custom..

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by headdownlow0624

The seat frame and headrest tube you fabricated look great. Keep up the good work.

Does the seat bottom attach at more points then just the armrest mounts? I imagine the resultant force of a front-impact would direct a good amount of force straight down (in addition to forward, assuming standard seat-belt installation practices, see pic attached). Automotive seats typically have foam directly below the fabric, and a bucket seat spring holding that. Your seat has elastomeric/polyester fabric on the seat bottom, which might fail first. If so, what does your butt hit next? If it's a very short fall to something that won't pierce/hurt your body, then I wouldn't worry about it.
[IMG]https://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/wescoperformance/2pt-install-1-blk-bx.gif[
]

I have all but decided to go with an oe type seat. The office chair just draws the wrong kind of attention.

But to answer your questions:

The seat doesn’t attach to the arm brackets at all. It bolts to a 1/4” thick aluminum plate, that the back and arm brackets are welded to, and that bolts to the sliders. Because the seat was originally adjustable, the mounts on the seat are really too far back for what I would do, more on that in a sec.

The seat is only an inch or 2 off of the plate, it would not drop much at all. In fact the seat is designed to flex way more than the limiting plate will allow.

But because the seat mounts are so far back, I have a piece of 1 X 1.5” black rubber, it is either EPDM or Neoprene to run the full width of the plate, supporting the front of the seat.

I had planned to run an adjustable bracket to one of the steel uprights, (right where there is lots of geometry) to tie into the head restraint. Adjustable so that you can still adjust the seat, but lock it down when in position.

The tube I used is way over the thickness of the OE seat structure, but I saw absolutely no reason not to go overboard in reinforcing it. As one person pointed out, the arm back mounts are cast, but I have the headrest tube right up against the top of the back supporting it.

Aluminum castings do bend a fair amount before breaking, but they do break if allowed to go far enough.

I know that my tube is thicker than OE, and it is not crushed to bend like the OE, but my tube may be a bit longer, and leverage multiplies, so to be extra sure, I was going to tie it to the side of the bus.

My improvements may be fine, they may be better than that, but they are not going to satisfy everyone, so it may be better to not have an attractive nuisance.

[ChurchBuz]

So yes…. My pride and my investment in time, design and effort found me resistant and frustrated when opposed, or rather, being advised not to do it.

I recognize that that is my problem, and I apologize for resisting, being rude, etc. I mean it.

I know, and knew (at least in the back of my mind that they meant well). Pride is a slippery slope.

And as I think about how I would have received the warning better… I speak for myself, that is why I am posting:

I tend to stiffen up and get defensive when I feel strong armed in the context of proper equipment, or laws, insurance companies, liability (arguments) etc. ultimately I can not argue with those things, but they push the wrong buttons in me.

I had concluded, and it was just posted, what would have found me immediately more supple, and probably even made me feel bad for not having thought of it first. And that would have been a statement like:

You are free to do that, even though you will be taking on a lot more liability than you realize… but for the sake of the skoolie community I/we ask you not to do that because it draws the wrong kind of attention and makes us look like we don’t care and are unsafe.

So if you want me to listen, that is better than any argument. Thank you in advance.

And thank you to all who objected or had concerns, because you stood for what you believed, and I applaud that.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by ChurchBuz

I tend to get rubbed the wrong way people push too hard. I should have been more clear.

I need encouragement, it really helps me.

These are issues that you should work on. Particularly when communicating in the written form as there are no tonal or body language clues to impart any additional meaning.


A lot of great ideas have been crushed by liability lawyers and the idiot jurors they convince to hand out big awards. When I was 5 my 101 electrical projects kit included an antenna lead. The instructions for which said to insert the blade on one end into the wider of the two slots on a 110 wall outlet.
Try getting that past a lawyer today!


We are not free, we are owned by politicians and lawyers

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

These are issues that you should work on. Particularly when communicating in the written form as there are no tonal or body language clues to impart any additional meaning.

Agreed.

Hopefully it is at least somewhat obvious that that is what I am trying to do.

Text conveys less than half of what we mean to say.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by ChurchBuz

Agreed.

Hopefully it is at least somewhat obvious that that is what I am trying to do.

Text conveys less than half of what we mean to say.

Yes, it seems to have been straightened out with additional text.

[Veloc]

I'm not upset with you either, but I will point out dangerous stuff when I see it, and will do so in clear manner. Watch some crash test dummies and watch how hard they hit the seat back on the rebound. Now picture your spine hitting that steel bar like that. I'm just trying to save you from a negative life-changing event because if you sever your spinal cord nothing below that point works anymore. Better to throw a little work away instead. Besides, you could probably still use the chair in the bus, just not when it's moving. Engineers spend lots of dollars and hours testing seats for safety, and they crash multiple cars to test them. May as well take advantage of their efforts, especially since you can cruise any pick-a-part and find a seat that's both comfortable and vented.

That being said, I'm all for innovation and finding new ways to do things. Hell, I'm working out how to put a 1 car garage on the back of a skoolie when I eventually get started on one. I'm only posting now because I plan to learn as much as I can before I even buy a bus. The more I read here, the more I learn what I can and can't do, and it's already changing my design plans.

[ChurchBuz]

Originally Posted by Veloc

I'm not upset with you either, but I will point out dangerous stuff when I see it, and will do so in clear manner. Watch some crash test dummies and watch how hard they hit the seat back on the rebound. Now picture your spine hitting that steel bar like that. I'm just trying to save you from a negative life-changing event because if you sever your spinal cord nothing below that point works anymore. Better to throw a little work away instead. Besides, you could probably still use the chair in the bus, just not when it's moving. Engineers spend lots of dollars and hours testing seats for safety, and they crash multiple cars to test them. May as well take advantage of their efforts, especially since you can cruise any pick-a-part and find a seat that's both comfortable and vented.

That being said, I'm all for innovation and finding new ways to do things. Hell, I'm working out how to put a 1 car garage on the back of a skoolie when I eventually get started on one. I'm only posting now because I plan to learn as much as I can before I even buy a bus. The more I read here, the more I learn what I can and can't do, and it's already changing my design plans.

Right on.

I am building the skoolie so that I can take a car I am building to car shows and travel with it.

I should not be too far from cutting the back open on mine.