Crown Bus Electric Conversion

[Ronnie]

I realize it is only a car but basically that is how a Chevy Volt works. Limited battery range about 35 miles, with a small gas engine(1 liter or so?) to give additional charging. With regenerative braking it actually works quite well.

A Telma retarder is basically a motor working backwards on the driveshaft to slow down. What if the polarity was reversed so it provided power? Does anyone know enough about these that could say? We need someone with this already on the bus to try out some things. Again this would be more of a hybrid idea. I am serious about looking into it, although time and funding are not there yet.

[Ronnie]

Ok I think I am miss understanding how a Telma works. I thought it worked as a motor holding back. But it appears the magnetic coils just engage a brake rotor on the driveshaft? Is this correct? If so this whole idea is out the window....

[Shambhala Tinbolle]

Originally Posted by HazMatt

Well, no, actually. You are the one needing to do more research!
You started this thread soliciting inputs. You got some.
But you can't seriously expect anyone else to do your homework for you; expending considerable effort performing in-depth research and analysis, to support your underlying thought, the proposition that might make this arcane hobby horse of your rock at a cost/benefit that isn't four or five orders of magnitude into crazy-expensive.
You say you have the wherewithal to make it happen, kudos! Then what's stopping you from buying a couple of MIT post-docs to crunch the numbers for you? Instead of berating us here in Physics for Dummies-land for our lack of desire to not further waste time on a project that is of no conceivable benefit to any regular member of this forum.
After you're done throwing all those piles of money at the problem, why don't you then come back, and altruistically crow about how it may be done?

This is an energizing thread. Sadly it is going in the wrong direction.

We're here to brainstorm together, share ideas, and troubleshoot how ideas might be accomplished. Holy cow, think about what we all love to do - turn buses into something they were never ever meant to be.


prorallydriver - Your question is interesting and timely, given the carbon footprint dilemma on our one and only habitable planet. I myself would love to make my full size (72 psngr) diesel bus electric. With how quickly technology changes, and how many people are working on "impossible" solutions, why not investigate the options of hybrid or complete conversion to electric.


Everyone researches differently, comprehends differently and conveys info differently. Let's have some patience with each other please, instead of spitting insults and cutting each other down.


HazMatt - Think of your tagline "Those who say that it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it."

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Shambhala Tinbolle

This is an energizing thread. Sadly it is going in the wrong direction.

We're here to brainstorm together, share ideas, and troubleshoot how ideas might be accomplished. Holy cow, think about what we all love to do - turn buses into something they were never ever meant to be.


prorallydriver - Your question is interesting and timely, given the carbon footprint dilemma on our one and only habitable planet. I myself would love to make my full size (72 psngr) diesel bus electric. With how quickly technology changes, and how many people are working on "impossible" solutions, why not investigate the options of hybrid or complete conversion to electric.


Everyone researches differently, comprehends differently and conveys info differently. Let's have some patience with each other please, instead of spitting insults and cutting each other down.


HazMatt - Think of your tagline "Those who say that it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it."

you've been to Shambhala in BC? - l live across the river from it

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Ok I think I am miss understanding how a Telma works. I thought it worked as a motor holding back. But it appears the magnetic coils just engage a brake rotor on the driveshaft? Is this correct? If so this whole idea is out the window....

Yes that's how a telma works. The coils are energized and magnetic force stops the bus. Its frictionless.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Shambhala Tinbolle

This is an energizing thread. Sadly it is going in the wrong direction.

We're here to brainstorm together, share ideas, and troubleshoot how ideas might be accomplished. Holy cow, think about what we all love to do - turn buses into something they were never ever meant to be.


prorallydriver - Your question is interesting and timely, given the carbon footprint dilemma on our one and only habitable planet. I myself would love to make my full size (72 psngr) diesel bus electric. With how quickly technology changes, and how many people are working on "impossible" solutions, why not investigate the options of hybrid or complete conversion to electric.


Everyone researches differently, comprehends differently and conveys info differently. Let's have some patience with each other please, instead of spitting insults and cutting each other down.


HazMatt - Think of your tagline "Those who say that it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it."

Sorry but all he did was inject some reality in the brand fantasy that this thread really is.
Show us someone doing it.

[peteg59]

The OP put out an impossible, in todays technology, and highly improbable scenario.
The majority of his posts were borderline argumentative, when any kind of reality was injected into the discussion.
He has literally flown the coop from the thread, for whatever reason.

If the discussion on converting any bus to full electric is to continue without the earlier diatribe, it should be relaunched into a generically titled thread so that useful and productive discussion can continue for those with any interest on the topic...

Link to new thread for general electric conversions:
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f13/pr...-new-post.html

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Yes that's how a telma works. The coils are energized and magnetic force stops the bus. Its frictionless.

Ok thanks. The video shows the "rotor" heating up as if there was friction. I know that it mentioned frictionless, but something else mention pads in a way to imply brake pads. Might just be poor wording.

A friend of mine is a bus driver and is getting a bus for conversion from his company. He thinks they have Telma retarders on them. The bus will come here for him to work on, as I have space and tools. So if he is correct I will be able to check it out first hand. Should happen this summer.

[Iceni John]

Telma retarders convert forward motion into heat, just like all hydraulic/transmission retarders and wheel brakes do. Even a Jake brake produces some heat! The big advantage of Telmas is that all the heat produced just dissipates harmlessly into the air flowing under the bus, instead of boiling a transmission into oblivion or setting fire to a tire (and then to the whole vehicle). Doesn't Colorado requires Telmas on all its school buses? Maybe any CO skoolie owners here can chime in with their real-world experience of using them down long grades? I think of Telmas as the baby cousins of the regenerative braking used by locomotives - the amount of heat they produce is staggering, sometimes enough to cause their grids to glow red hot.

Much though I love my Jake, I wish I had a Telma as well! Maybe I can find a Focal for cheap (yeah, dream on) to fit my rear axle . . .

John

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by peteg59

The OP put out an impossible, in todays technology, and highly improbable scenario.
The majority of his posts were borderline argumentative, when any kind of reality was injected into the discussion.
He has literally flown the coop from the thread, for whatever reason.

If the discussion on converting any bus to full electric is to continue without the earlier diatribe, it should be relaunched into a generically titled thread so that useful and productive discussion can continue for those with any interest on the topic...

Link to new thread for general electric conversions:
Practical and theoretic electric bus conversions... - School Bus Conversion Resources

I was one member of the forum that saw that differently - I was quite taken aback at how he was received - some of us can be pretty crusty at times, but I saw his reception as far past crusty - when engaged, rather than being ridiculed or worse, he did reply with some interesting comments - there have been others on here recently with little or nothing to offer, somewhat rude at times, and rather than being honest about a bus being the wrong solution for their needs, they were entertained and made welcome - personally I learned something during the discussion of the idea of electric buses including that there is one about to be produced that gets up to 1100 miles on a single charge - I felt that some of us were rude without a legitimate reason to be rude

[Sehnsucht]

I don't know that this forum is any different than any other internet forum though - they all suffer from the same egotism and perceived position of authority due to the relative anonymity of the internet. There are those who know how to behave online as they would ftf and others who enjoy being inflammatory online just because they can get away with it. I feel like it cut both ways though, the OP wasn't really looking for insights, just validation of his preconception and others here were having none of it. Par for the course.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Telma retarders convert forward motion into heat, just like all hydraulic/transmission retarders and wheel brakes do. Even a Jake brake produces some heat! The big advantage of Telmas is that all the heat produced just dissipates harmlessly into the air flowing under the bus, instead of boiling a transmission into oblivion or setting fire to a tire (and then to the whole vehicle). Doesn't Colorado requires Telmas on all its school buses? Maybe any CO skoolie owners here can chime in with their real-world experience of using them down long grades? I think of Telmas as the baby cousins of the regenerative braking used by locomotives - the amount of heat they produce is staggering, sometimes enough to cause their grids to glow red hot.

Much though I love my Jake, I wish I had a Telma as well! Maybe I can find a Focal for cheap (yeah, dream on) to fit my rear axle . . .

John

Yes this is what I was thinking they are baby cousins to locomotive regenerative braking. Locomotives normally dissipate this energy through heater grids on the roof of the loco though instead of storing it in batteries. So my goal would to to have it generate electric and go to batteries, then it could be sent back to it for power when needed.

Might be time to move this idea to a new thread

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Telma retarders convert forward motion into heat, just like all hydraulic/transmission retarders and wheel brakes do. Even a Jake brake produces some heat! The big advantage of Telmas is that all the heat produced just dissipates harmlessly into the air flowing under the bus, instead of boiling a transmission into oblivion or setting fire to a tire (and then to the whole vehicle). Doesn't Colorado requires Telmas on all its school buses? Maybe any CO skoolie owners here can chime in with their real-world experience of using them down long grades? I think of Telmas as the baby cousins of the regenerative braking used by locomotives - the amount of heat they produce is staggering, sometimes enough to cause their grids to glow red hot.

Much though I love my Jake, I wish I had a Telma as well! Maybe I can find a Focal for cheap (yeah, dream on) to fit my rear axle . . .

John

CO requires a retarder on mountain buses.

[Kubla]

Electric cars have regenerative braking, pretty sure that the current crop of electric trucks and buses also have it, diesel electric locomotives do not have it simply because of the amount of batteries you would need to make it viable far exceeds the cost savings in fuel saved, the example I use is the hybrid buses they bought here in Cincinnati, the bus cost almost 100,000 dollars more than a normal bus and was projected to save 8000 in fuel costs over the useful life of the bus

[alpine44]

The Telma retarder is an

eddy current brake

. More details here.

Eddy current brakes a great for dissipating energy due to their simplicity but unsuitable to drive anything as you cannot control the eddy currents by hooking up a wire.

[alpine44]

Originally Posted by Kubla

Electric cars have regenerative braking, pretty sure that the current crop of electric trucks and buses also have it, diesel electric locomotives do not have it simply because of the amount of batteries you would need to make it viable far exceeds the cost savings in fuel saved, the example I use is the hybrid buses they bought here in Cincinnati, the bus cost almost 100,000 dollars more than a normal bus and was projected to save 8000 in fuel costs over the useful life of the bus

Was this a DesignLine bus? This venture was a huge disappointment for the operators due to many problems with the new technology and subsequent bankruptcy of the manufacturer. The generator that charged the batteries in these hybrids was driven by a micro-turbine which elegantly solves a lot of emission problems.

I would not mind picking up one of these buses but most were auctioned off in 2014 and sold for around 3k.

[Ronnie]

Thanks, that explains a lot. So need to really be looking for a motor/generator that could go on the driveshaft, instead of the Telma.

[peakbus]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

I was one member of the forum that saw that differently - I was quite taken aback at how he was received - some of us can be pretty crusty at times, but I saw his reception as far past crusty - when engaged, rather than being ridiculed or worse, he did reply with some interesting comments - there have been others on here recently with little or nothing to offer, somewhat rude at times, and rather than being honest about a bus being the wrong solution for their needs, they were entertained and made welcome - personally I learned something during the discussion of the idea of electric buses including that there is one about to be produced that gets up to 1100 miles on a single charge - I felt that some of us were rude without a legitimate reason to be rude

Well said. I was of the same opinion.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by peakbus

Well said. I was of the same opinion.

thanks - I was pretty sure I wasn't the only one with
that opinion

[Shambhala Tinbolle]

Sleddgracer - No, I've never been to Shambhala BC. Adding it to my travel list. Thanks!