Crown Bus Electric Conversion

[prorallydriver]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I just bought a 6-71 detroit like would be used in a crown and with a 5 speed manual trans it weighs right about 3000lbs. I took it over the scales on the way out, so that should be very close.

Thank You for the information. How much do you think is the body itself? Someone said to me a Crown with engine + trans is around 6000 lbs. Do you think that is accurate?

Thanks again!

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Thank You for the information. How much do you think is the body itself? Someone said to me a Crown with engine + trans is around 6000 lbs. Do you think that is accurate?

Thanks again!

Not sure what a crown weighs but can say my bus is 17,500 with fuel and water, two people and ready for a trip. It is 34 feet long. So 6000lbs just seems way to light to me.

[2kool4skool]

Our complete 26 ft. BB is 20,000lbs.

[prorallydriver]

Originally Posted by 2kool4skool

Our complete 26 ft. BB is 20,000lbs.

Thank You!!

[roach711]

Interesting project from a strictly academic point of view, but I keep coming back to the "why" of it. My "old technology" diesel shorty cost me 5 grand to buy, has a range of over 500 miles on a tank of diesel and I can refuel most anywhere in 10 minutes. Interior heating costs me nothing.

I could spend a boatload of cash to convert to battery power, lose half my range and have to constantly search for somewhere to plug in to charge the beast overnight. If I run heat or air conditioning I'd lose even more range.

Sure, battery power is non-polluting at point of use but how much pollution does a generating station produce? Most base load generation is coal or natural gas fired so a battery powered vehicle essentially runs on 65% fossil fuels, 20% nuclear and 15% renewables. That may be cleaner than diesel fuel but the inconvenience makes no sense at all to me.

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Why not? Tesla is the best electric car company in the world period! Its 5 years ahead of everybody.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by roach711

Interesting project from a strictly academic point of view, but I keep coming back to the "why" of it. My "old technology" diesel shorty cost me 5 grand to buy, has a range of over 500 miles on a tank of diesel and I can refuel most anywhere in 10 minutes. Interior heating costs me nothing.

I could spend a boatload of cash to convert to battery power, lose half my range and have to constantly search for somewhere to plug in to charge the beast overnight. If I run heat or air conditioning I'd lose even more range.

Sure, battery power is non-polluting at point of use but how much pollution does a generating station produce? Most base load generation is coal or natural gas fired so a battery powered vehicle essentially runs on 65% fossil fuels, 20% nuclear and 15% renewables. That may be cleaner than diesel fuel but the inconvenience makes no sense at all to me.

I agree with what you are saying as things are now.

However I do believe fossil fuels will go the way of the dinosaur in time. Something better must be out there. If we keep doing the same thing then we never find better, greater, less destructive fuel sources. Electric can be generated by any number of means, many of us have solar panels for "house" electric, a clean renewable and best of all off grid and great for boondocking. The few solar panels we have on the roof is no where able to power the bus itself, but it is a beginning.

So someone has to step forward and look at how else can we do things, and ask is there a better way? Electric cars have been thought of as useless toys. Now that Tesla has pushed the boundaries they have become surprisingly useful. I have taken long trips in one. Many Sheetz gas stations have charging "pumps". Get lunch while the car charges and then off you go again. Fast ,quiet, comfortable.

I applaud someone willing to buck the norm and try something new or different. Those of us with skoolies already are bucking the norm and looking for a better way, let's not get stuck in how we do it.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Sure, you are right. But do me a favor read my question and read the comments is very easy to understand. Pragmatic? I don't mind at all but they are not right. I asked the question and I need a response from helpful experienced people.

Dude please stop repeating the line "have you read my question".

[Sleddgracer]

with all the good words being said about the quality of the Crown buses, it seems to me to be an ideal platform to experiment on with such an expensive proposition - but until the grid goes all hydro, pollution is still a major concern - I don't believe that electric is the be all of future energy sources - neither is solar, wind power, or thermal energy the 'White Light' of the future - there has been many advances being made on hydrogen generation - two worthy programs, both similar in concept, but different in application, hold real promise - neither idea uses electrolysis to generate hydrogen - both programs use a form of photosynthesis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen - when hydrogen is burned, the waste is oxygen and water - units small enough to be on-board generators can also be used to power a household - it would be possible, it's said, although I don't know how practical it would be, that when dad gets home from work, he plugs the car into the household circuit and turns the power on in the house - units like that would truly allow an escape from the power grid - there are other non polluting power sources available using old school technology, or at least carbon neutral - one is wood gases - ( burning wood is carbon neutral, eliminate the fly ash and it's non polluting ) - another is methane generators ( propane ) - using waste from human and livestock contributors, methane becomes carbon neutral - methane was a common fuel among farmers and some others during the 'Hungry 30's" - small methane generators are used in some under developed countries - one family cow supplies enough material to generate enough methane to supply fuel to cook for a family of 5 - all of that aside, I still firmly believe that small hydrogen generators are the future of energy supply, whether it's burned as a fuel in an internal combustion engine, or as a source of electric generation, it's still a truly non-polluting source of power with an unlimited supply available

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Dude please stop repeating the line "have you read my question".

He said "You are right", then ignored everything I said, went back doing the exact same same thing- implying anyone who challenges the idea is unhelpful. Its childish.



To any of you "its possible" people - doesn't take much looking around - read some accounts of race car drivers that brought a Tesla to the track. They're awesome, they're kings, etc, for about, I dunno, 3 laps. Then the fun ends when the batteries and motors are overheating. And they're liquid-cooled.



And I gave you very, very conservative numbers that show you just why this isn't going to happen. Why don't you "its possible" people give us your numbers eh? Show us in math, how you're going to take those same motors that overheat with an ultra-light coupe/sedan frame on them, put three to five times the weight load on them and keep that awesome range and performance you're citing.

Show us how any battery bank short of a Megawatt hour will get you from point A to point B with a 20,000lb load.

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

But do me a favor read my question and read the comments is very easy to understand.

I fully comprehend your question and the comments. I gave you the answer: You need components spec'd higher than what is currently generally available. You don't like that answer.

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

I don't mind at all but they are not right.

Then challenge my numbers, OK? Tell us how you can get 750hp without the equivalent energy expendature. If indeed "Its possible"- HOW? That's the question that YOU are asking. The people who actually answer are told they're unhelpful, that "they are not right"- I said yes, you can do it. With a battery bank measured in several MWh. Where are you going to source that, I'd love one.

[peteg59]

This thread, while it is at 9 pages and counting, will eventually fade away into the archives due to the impracticality of the project and the OP's unwillingness to accept rational scientific/mechanical reasons why it won't fly in today's world.
But we all wish him luck in the dream...

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

with all the good words being said about the quality of the Crown buses, it seems to me to be an ideal platform to experiment on with such an expensive proposition - but until the grid goes all hydro, pollution is still a major concern - I don't believe that electric is the be all of future energy sources - neither is solar, wind power, or thermal energy the 'White Light' of the future - there has been many advances being made on hydrogen generation - two worthy programs, both similar in concept, but different in application, hold real promise - neither idea uses electrolysis to generate hydrogen - both programs use a form of photosynthesis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen - when hydrogen is burned, the waste is oxygen and water - units small enough to be on-board generators can also be used to power a household - it would be possible, it's said, although I don't know how practical it would be, that when dad gets home from work, he plugs the car into the household circuit and turns the power on in the house - units like that would truly allow an escape from the power grid - there are other non polluting power sources available using old school technology, or at least carbon neutral - one is wood gases - ( burning wood is carbon neutral, eliminate the fly ash and it's non polluting ) - another is methane generators ( propane ) - using waste from human and livestock contributors, methane becomes carbon neutral - methane was a common fuel among farmers and some others during the 'Hungry 30's" - small methane generators are used in some under developed countries - one family cow supplies enough material to generate enough methane to supply fuel to cook for a family of 5 - all of that aside, I still firmly believe that small hydrogen generators are the future of energy supply, whether it's burned as a fuel in an internal combustion engine, or as a source of electric generation, it's still a truly non-polluting source of power with an unlimited supply available

I like what and how you have written, clearly well thought out. Electric I see not as an energy source but as a means of converting a fuel source into something usable, and storable. So as a conveyance, it has a lot going for it.

getting off topic for the original post I do wonder which is more efficient, and hydrogen fuel cell running an electric motor, of hydrogen directly running an engine?

A fuel cell would be a way to extend the range though on an electric vehicle that is otherwise battery powered. Even if the fuel cell is the primary source of electricity the batteries provide a way to store energy from braking for use.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

He said "You are right", then ignored everything I said, went back doing the exact same same thing- implying anyone who challenges the idea is unhelpful. Its childish.



To any of you "its possible" people - doesn't take much looking around - read some accounts of race car drivers that brought a Tesla to the track. They're awesome, they're kings, etc, for about, I dunno, 3 laps. Then the fun ends when the batteries and motors are overheating. And they're liquid-cooled.



And I gave you very, very conservative numbers that show you just why this isn't going to happen. Why don't you "its possible" people give us your numbers eh? Show us in math, how you're going to take those same motors that overheat with an ultra-light coupe/sedan frame on them, put three to five times the weight load on them and keep that awesome range and performance you're citing.

Show us how any battery bank short of a Megawatt hour will get you from point A to point B with a 20,000lb load.


I fully comprehend your question and the comments. I gave you the answer: You need components spec'd higher than what is currently generally available. You don't like that answer.



Then challenge my numbers, OK? Tell us how you can get 750hp without the equivalent energy expendature. If indeed "Its possible"- HOW? That's the question that YOU are asking. The people who actually answer are told they're unhelpful, that "they are not right"- I said yes, you can do it. With a battery bank measured in several MWh. Where are you going to source that, I'd love one.

there was also links supplied of electric buses with an 1100 mile range on a single charge - certainly it can be done - it's already being done, whether it's a Tesla set up or not, it's being done, right now, today!

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I like what and how you have written, clearly well thought out. Electric I see not as an energy source but as a means of converting a fuel source into something usable, and storable. So as a conveyance, it has a lot going for it.

getting off topic for the original post I do wonder which is more efficient, and hydrogen fuel cell running an electric motor, of hydrogen directly running an engine?

A fuel cell would be a way to extend the range though on an electric vehicle that is otherwise battery powered. Even if the fuel cell is the primary source of electricity the batteries provide a way to store energy from braking for use.

hydrogen energy conversion to electricity seems to be the way most research is heading - I'd like to know more about the 'why' but getting access to the nitty-gritty research isn't easy without the proper credentials - perhaps to reduce the amount of hydrogen storage or because electric motors are more efficient than internal combustion motors - above my pay grade - lol

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

getting off topic for the original post I do wonder which is more efficient, and hydrogen fuel cell running an electric motor, of hydrogen directly running an engine?

And where does this hydrogen come from? It is not a naturally-occurring element, at least on this planet (even though it is abundant in the universe as a whole), so it therefore requires energy to produce it here. Factor in the energy cost to produce it and the resultant pollution, and all the hydrogen-fuelled vehicles then don't look quite so "clean" and green. Hydrogen is the faddish current darling of politicians and others looking to make a short-term advantage from its supposed benefits, but its overall reality is definitely not as environmentally-responsible as is claimed. In fact, most so-called "clean energy" solutions, including what's being promulgated by this thread's OP, are very unclean when all their energy costs are factored in; for example, all those misguided folk with their silly little Priuses and Teslas conveniently disregard what is needed to make their cars' batteries, such as the mining and extraction costs in Africa, the refining in Canada, the manufacturing in China, the shipping halfway around the world and back (ocean shipping is hugely polluting due to its heavy fuel oils' high sulphur content), etc etc, and this also does not include the eventual costs to recycle the batteries at the end of their short life. Green it ain't. Add in the pollution involved in making the electricity to then recharge those batteries (California gets half its electrons from stinking coal-fired power stations in Arizona), and the whole exercise rapidly disintegrates into a thinly-veiled sham and farce that's appealing only to those with no willingness to question its perceived "truth". I think of electric cars in the same vein as bottled drinking water, or SUVs, or religion, or any of mankind's other scams and rip-offs.

At least the OP didn't suggest covering the roof of his electric bus with solar panels to recharge its batteries, as has been seriously suggested on other forums! And why doesn't he want to make a battery-powered rally car - surely all that power would make him an instant winner wherever he races it?

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth . . .

John

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by peteg59

This thread, while it is at 9 pages and counting, will eventually fade away into the archives due to the impracticality of the project and the OP's unwillingness to accept rational scientific/mechanical reasons why it won't fly in today's world.
But we all wish him luck in the dream...

seems to me with electric buses already on the ground with an 1100 mile range, it's already flying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5CbbosLP40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JpMTWdPZ6c

[HazMatt]

In summation:
If you ignore that the Opie's vague first question looks to have been written by an inner-city fourth grader, obviously the answer is, No.
Certainly not by anyone has who has ever attempted this, and then wanted to publicly embarrass themselves by admitting to the boondoggle of a failure.

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Good Evening,

I need help with some basic advice. I am planning to buy a Crown Bus and I want to install Tesla motors and Batteries. Does anyone in this Forum did that before?

What are the pros and cons to take in consideration?

Thanks

A cogent, well-considered statement.
No reply from Opie...

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

I think electrical supplement drives could be practical DIY, but still questionable in terms of cost and likely requires custom fabrication/etc that just isn't generally available. I can totally see someone charging batteries by braking action and assisting the diesel motor in acceleration from low speed.


Beyond that, battery tech just isn't there yet. We need at least 10x current density with 1/10th the weight and then 1/100th the cost on top of that to be practical.

Perfectly valid, spot-on points.

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Are you an engineer and fabricator? Also wealthy? If so this may be your swap.

Obviously, it does matter.
That pie in the sky won't bake itself.

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Does it matter? I am asking a very specific question.

Didn't you know?
Confirming reality makes you a hater, player!

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

No one's hating. We're just realistic and actually have buses.

The following two quotes are like trying to teach a jackass to sing.
It wastes your time, and annoys the jackass.

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

What about actual torque? Do you know what a Tesla weighs? What a bus weighs? Have you thought at all about what your duty cycle might look like with an older, much heavier constructed bus weight versus the (by comparison) space-age lightness of a model S?


It seems to me you are dismissing anyone who challenges this idea from a pragmatic standpoint. You're not going to get far anywhere, with anyone, doing that. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking something, or "hate". We don't know what your expected/top end budget is, what performance metrics you're trying to achieve, anything. Most people, rightfully, are questioning whether there's any realism whatsoever in your question.


You can take the pragmatic challenges head-on like an engineer or you can ignore them like an academic romanticist.

Originally Posted by kazetsukai

Lets be real: 750HP is 559kW, which means you need at least that in power draw even if the motor was 100% efficient. Now imagine pulling that at even 50% duty cycle with the most efficient motors available. Even at 600V that's well over 1000A! You'll be melting motors and cables.


Dyno TESTS are not real life. There's an assumed acceptable range for normal, day-to-day operation and these motors are spec'd with that in mind.

*ding ding ding ding ding* Whoosh
There goes the reality train!
It doesn't stop at this station.

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Sure, you are right. But do me a favor read my question and read the comments is very easy to understand. Pragmatic? I don't mind at all but they are not right. I asked the question and I need a response from helpful experienced people.

I think Opie should be asking himself to re-read the question.
Or to re-phrase it...

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Dude please stop repeating the line "have you read my question".

And this, friends and neighbors, is precisely what ensued!
Relying on all y'alls helpful nature, Opie kept prodding you along, into providing answers that he could gave found for himself. But that would have required a modicum of effort. Either that, or Google doesn't work on Cloud Nine.
Opie has 2 threads, and a pile of posts to his credit. None of which is directed to anybody benefit but his own. There's not so much as a, "Cool build," or, "I didn't know that, thanx for sharing," on any of y'all's threads. Before, or since, this page went live.
Can you say, "Selfish User," boys and girls? Sure you can, I like how you say that.

Originally Posted by HazMatt

...
But you can't seriously expect anyone else to do your homework for you;..

And if this makes me a hater; considering the source, I do believe that I might just survive that, tolerably well...

[kazetsukai]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

there was also links supplied of electric buses with an 1100 mile range on a single charge - certainly it can be done - it's already being done, whether it's a Tesla set up or not, it's being done, right now, today!

There are four data points from that precedent we need: Vehicle weight, battery bank capacity, motor specs, and average speed. And: was that run on actual roads or in a lab?

[Willie_McCoy]

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Thank You for the information. How much do you think is the body itself? Someone said to me a Crown with engine + trans is around 6000 lbs. Do you think that is accurate?

Thanks again!

This is a very interesting project, realistic or not and I wish you the best.

I dont know what sort of nitwits your talking to, but a giant 35' school bus with a massive engine is not going to weigh 6000lbs, a full size pickup is heavier than that.

I have a 1980 Crown, its empty weight, with a half tank of fuel, fully stripped without seats ready for conversion was 21,020 lbs. The Detroit 671T weighs about 2,200 lbs and add in a few hundred for the transmission and fuel tank and I think 3k is what you can plan to loose when you drop the running gear, so you will have an approx 18,000 lb bus before you add the weight of your EV system and batteries.

I would plan to push at least 25,000+ lbs or more for a completed conversion build.

If you are looking to move lots of people in this bus, it will be a whole lot more than that, more like 35,000-40,000 lbs for 56 or so adult passengers figured @250lbs/pp

[kazetsukai]

Here's Proterra's numbers:


https://www.proterra.com/products/40-foot-catalyst/


Their top end, the 40' E2-max is 232-328 mile range with a 660kWh battery bank, curb weight of 33,000lbs and their fastest charge times (using the "overhead" charger) is 2.8 hours. From the video I gathered that the motor is a single 200HP unit with a two-speed transmission, they aggressively regen whenever your foot comes off the pedals, and based on their cost diagrams, I estimate them to cost $800k-$1.1M each.



Those are impressive numbers, well within the realm of realism. They don't expect these things to be operating on the freeways, although they can at low (50mph) speeds.