Crown Bus Electric Conversion

[HazMatt]

So sorry, but gotta bust your bulb. You're comparing Apple computers and Oranges.
The beloved childhood doohickey spun due to energized molecules in the bulb's rarefied atmosphere.

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

our was all carbon - vanes were rough on one side and shiny smooth on the other side - it would really get spinning when held in the direct sunlight coming through the window - now they are using that same solar power to generate electricity, power robots on other planets, and even sails on space craft are being experimented with - that same solar wind is theorized to be able to propel a space craft through space at close to the speed of light - so far experiments have produced mixed results, mixed mostly because of the difficulty of getting the giant gossamer sail to unfold properly, I believe

The solar wind you described is a highly energetic plama steam slung away from the Sun.
The solar wind is less than a drizzle, here. But a drizzle that is hauling considerable a$$!
When it causes disturbances in the magnetoshere, that causes those pretty Northern Lights you see a bit more regularly than we're exposed to here in the littler latitudes.
Without those Van Allen belts, Earth would be a crisped, lifeless rock, btw...

[capnron]

Originally Posted by prorallydriver

Good Evening,

I need help with some basic advice. I am planning to buy a Crown Bus and I want to install Tesla motors and Batteries. Does anyone in this Forum did that before?

What are the pros and cons to take in consideration?

Thanks

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Bluebird might be able to supply some answers to your question. Just a quick scan would indicate that range is still an issue for heavy vehicles. China might also have some interesting info as they apparently have over 400,000 electric busses on the road.
https://www.blue-bird.com/electric

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by HazMatt

So sorry, but gotta bust your bulb. You're comparing Apple computers and Oranges.
The beloved childhood doohickey spun due to energized molecules in the bulb's rarefied atmosphere.



The solar wind you described is a highly energetic plama steam slung away from the Sun.
The solar wind is less than a drizzle, here. But a drizzle that is hauling considerable a$$!
When it causes disturbances in the magnetoshere, that causes those pretty Northern Lights you see a bit more regularly than we're exposed to here in the littler latitudes.
Without those Van Allen belts, Earth would be a crisped, lifeless rock, btw...

The Crookes radiometer (also known as a light mill) consists of an airtight glass bulb containing a partial vacuum, with a set of vanes which are mounted on a spindle inside. The vanes rotate when exposed to light, with faster rotation for more intense light, providing a quantitative measurement of electromagnetic radiation intensity.

The reason for the rotation was a cause of much scientific debate in the ten years following the invention of the device,[1][2] but in 1879 the currently accepted explanation for the rotation was published.[3][4] Today the device is mainly used in physics education as a demonstration of a heat engine run by light energy.

It was invented in 1873 by the chemist Sir William Crookes as the by-product of some chemical research. In the course of very accurate quantitative chemical work, he was weighing samples in a partially evacuated chamber to reduce the effect of air currents, and noticed the weighings were disturbed when sunlight shone on the balance. Investigating this effect, he created the device named after him.

It is still manufactured and sold as an educational aid or curiosity.


yes, we would be cooked if it were not for the earth's magnetic field diverting the energy from the sun's solar flares - even with the aid of the magnetic field the energy from an intense solar flare can overwhelm the magnetic field and disrupt radios, computers and even energy grids

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Another thing to take into consideration. I'm pretty sure most (if not all) Crown buses are air-brake. How do you propose to keep sufficient air pressure in the system? I doubt electric compressors are high enough output to feed such systems. Running an auxiliary electric motor solely to run a compressor is going to put a pretty big dent in your range, methinks.

Not poo-poo'ing the idea, mind you. I think it's kinda cool, and I ponder such projects as well, but the more research I do, the more I question how it will work in the real world and under load.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

surely you jest? --- water contains one hydrogen atom for every 2 oxygen atoms

H2O........

Hydrogen 2- Oxygen 1

[HazMatt]

Fromage_Bagnole:

Axle-driven belts to a pump?
Would be continuously venting over-pressure, once max psi in the tank was reached.
So, you duct the surplus to the rear, exit thru a reducer, and use that as a jet-assist booster.
Zoom!!!

[HazMatt]

And here are your latest box scores, folx

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Hydrogen 2- Oxygen 1

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

Another thing to take into consideration. I'm pretty sure most (if not all) Crown buses are air-brake. How do you propose to keep sufficient air pressure in the system?

Originally Posted by HazMatt

Axle-driven belts to a pump?
Would be continuously venting over-pressure, once max psi was reached.
So, you duct the surplus to the rear, and use that as a jet-assist booster.
Zoom!!!

That's actually not a bad idea... Using excess blow-off air to an air-powered Tesla turbine (most efficient type) to keep the batteries charged with a small generator/charger. Would probably boost the range quite a bit. Would probably work quite well, until your compressor crapped out. The other problem with that would be that if you developed an air leak, spring brakes would never release once the air system bled down without an outside air source, leaving you unable to charge batteries (with only this setup) or move.

I like the idea of two compressors built-in to one set of hubs, and two generator/chargers built-in to the other set. Make it all work together, you might well have an excellent range, and reliable, too.

[HazMatt]

Cool!

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

That's actually not a bad idea... Using excess blow-off air to an air-powered Tesla turbine (most efficient type) to keep the batteries charged with a small generator/charger. Would probably boost the range quite a bit. Would probably work quite well, until your compressor crapped out. The other problem with that would be that if you developed an air leak, spring brakes would never release once the air system bled down without an outside air source.

I like the idea of two compressors built-in to one set of hubs, and two generator/chargers built-in to the other set. Make it all work together, you might well have an excellent range, and reliable, too.

Of course, your name will come second on the patent application...
EDIT: Oh, sh1t! We just fed the troll.

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by capnron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bluebird might be able to supply some answers to your question. Just a quick scan would indicate that range is still an issue for heavy vehicles. China might also have some interesting info as they apparently have over 400,000 electric busses on the road.
https://www.blue-bird.com/electric

Actually Blue Bird did make a few battery school buses some years ago, but they were less than successful. They had tons of FLA batteries, but could still only go a short distance before running out of electrons. Beaumont CA used them, ironically not far from the big wind farm next to the I-10 just west of Palm Springs. They ended up on eBay, and needless to say they were sold for scrap after only a few years' use. One thing that amused me was their heaters - they had heaters that provided over 100,000 BTU of heat, but unlike a diesel bus all that energy had to come from guess where. Maybe that's why they couldn't go very far in the winter. Definitely not a well-thought through concept!

John

[joeblack5]

Yes the blue bird electric buses are neat.
They use adomani technology that gets their actual stuff from China.

In another 10 yrs we can see the first at auction.



tesla is one of the few US companies that has a vision. I am surprised that big oil has not taken him out yet....like Diesel in the day.... Maybe Musks contacts with the military space stuff gets him a body guard.


Cost of fuel is an irrelevant number as long as we do not pay the full price of environmental damage. That understanding is slowly changing in other countries.. carbon taxes... much higher gasoline / diesel fuel cost.

[HazMatt]

Was that metric or standard battery tonnage?
I wonder how many students they were able to shoehorn in between all of the batt banks.

Originally Posted by Iceni John

Actually Blue Bird did make a few battery school buses some years ago, but they were less than successful. They had tons of FLA batteries, but could still only go a short distance before running out of electrons. Beaumont CA used them, ironically not far from the big wind farm next to the I-10 just west of Palm Springs. They ended up on eBay, and needless to say they were sold for scrap after only a few years' use. One thing that amused me was their heaters - they had heaters that provided over 100,000 BTU of heat, but unlike a diesel bus all that energy had to come from guess where. Maybe that's why they couldn't go very far in the winter. Definitely not a well-thought through concept!

John

I know the area well, it was up over the pass from me in San Jacinto. Can't imagine why they thought they needed so many BTUs. It may be the High Desert, but it's still SoCal!
A cold snap is when temps dip into the low 50s...

[HazMatt]

Aside from areas that have abundant hydroelectric power available, it's still going to take less-savory forms of electrical generation to charge an ecar.
I believe the less-than-tree-huggy aspects of the infrastructure required to make the short-lived power supply has already been addressed here, elsewhere.

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Yes the blue bird electric buses are neat.
They use adomani technology that gets their actual stuff from China.

In another 10 yrs we can see the first at auction[emoji2].



tesla is one of the few US companies that has a vision. I am surprised that big oil has not taken him out yet....like Diesel in the day.... Maybe Musks contacts with the military space stuff gets him a body guard.


Cost of fuel is an irrelevant number as long as we do not pay the full price of environmental damage. That understanding is slowly changing in other countries.. carbon taxes... much higher gasoline / diesel fuel cost.

Not that hydroelectric doesn't result in some vile environmental impacts, either...
.
"It's not a perfect world."
~Captain Obvious, USAF (ret)

[joeblack5]

The swats of cheap "unusable" lands in the desert are amazing for solar.. And granted you are starting to see solar PV plants much more often in the desert. . I could also easily see in my mind that the highway system would be shadowed with a solar canopy. Maybe feeding electricity to the cars below.


It is not that that the technology is not available. It is the resistance and unwil of the folks that make money from depleting high quality resources as oil, NG and coal.
In their vision we need to use more so that their profits are higher. Tomorrow is someone else's problem.

[Sleddgracer]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

H2O........

Hydrogen 2- Oxygen 1

Matt and I covered that typo ^

[HazMatt]

Originally Posted by Sleddgracer

Matt and I covered that typo ^

In all fairness, this abortion of a thread's count was at 124 at the time...
Who has the time..? [emoji868]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

H2O........

Hydrogen 2- Oxygen 1

[Mekanic]

There are a few things that will be a snag.

One Tesla cars are quite aerodynamic.
A School bus is the opposite.

Plan on a much bigger battery pack since that will determine range.

Are you planning on using the Tesla chargers Aron’s the country??

[Vagabond]

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...31amlfnsk7do90
This puts out 1000 ft/lbs of torque all the way through 4K RPM.

The motor alone is 8K. I'm willing to bet that's more than the cost of your bus significantly.

Not only that this motor alone is nearly 500 lbs. And you're expecting to push/pull 10-14K lbs of bus, food, furniture, water, people etc., and on top of that BATTERIES. The more of a load the more electrical demand. You could work something up like diesel electric, perhaps run the motor off a battery pack and recharge via diesel generator but what would be the savings/advantage? Yes, yes diesel electric trains, but you're not running at a constant uninterrupted speed for days on end.



To be honest, I looked into this because I also wanted a go anywhere, "limitless bus" that wouldn't be dependent on diesel in case of the coming apocalypse. But the technology is just not there yet. Plus, what you are thinking about undertaking is working with relatively high DC voltage. Safe to say lots of things can go wrong if you don't really know what you are doing. I'm not trying to insult you, I don't' know your expertise in this matter but if your DC knowledge is little more than putting a battery into a device, yeah perhaps you should either reconsider or plan on sitting in some serious electrical/electrician classes. And there are controllers and heat issues which can greatly effect motor efficiency and motor life. Something else to consider if you plan a trip though hilly country or the though the mountains.



I mean it's a really cool idea but as of now, and the technology available I imagine your bus would be little more than a slow battery hauler with very little livable room.



Yes I know Tesla is making an all electric semi truck. But consider the size difference. The motor/cab is just all engine. I suspect the trailer will have to have some sort of battery bed/pack to supply the electric motors for the range needed for these types of trucks. More batteries less load.



Electric motors falls into that classic problem power vs distance vs weight.


Just some food for thought.

Anyhoo, whatever you decide good luck and take pics.

[alpine44]

Me feels that the OP was a Troll who has since found other victims.

However, there are a few things I want to point out for the sake of perspective.

The electric motor is be far the best device known to man for the task of moving a vehicle (and many other things). The main two reasons are torque curve and efficiency.

We prefer diesels in our buses because of the low-end torque. How is this for low end torque (solid blue curve): TorqueEfficiency.pdf

Full torque at zero rpm. Exactly when we need the most torque. The example shown is a motor from an electric motorcycle. 18kW (~24 hp) does not sound much but that bike is VERY lively due to the way the torque is delivered.

On the other end of the power spectrum we have diesel-electric locomotives. The mechanical hacks we use in cars, trucks, and buses like clutches, torque converters and gearboxes to accommodate the need of an ICE to rev while the vehicle is standing still or barely moving would be prohibitively complicated and expensive at power levels of over 3000hp and a vehicle (train) mass measured in thousands of tons. So the diesel engine in the locomotive drives a generator and the current is then fed in a controlled way to the electric motors driving the wheels. Again, maximum torque at 0 rpm.

The reason why this conversion from mechanical energy to electric and back to mechanical is still economical becomes obvious in the second graph of the attached datasheet. Electric motors and generators have efficiencies of over 90%. Compare that to a measly 20-40% thermal efficiency of an ICE.

Not surprisingly, electric cars were among the first automobiles but could not be made practical due to the lack of batteries with sufficient energy density.

One (1) gallon of gasoline weighing about 6 pounds contains approximately 33kWh (kilo Watt hours) of energy, which is roughly 1/3 the capacity of a state-of-the-art Tesla S battery weighing about 1200 lbs. No wonder that we were willing to put up with the abysmal efficiency of the ICE and its anemic low-end torque for over two centuries. No big oil conspiracy needed to explain this, just physics.

However, when the paradigm shifts, like when reasonably potent batteries are becoming a commodity, we should keep our minds open and reap the benefits of the emerging opportunities. Unfortunately, at that point there were massive corporate interventions to maintain the status quo in order to get more profit from technologies headed for obsolescence. Additionally, the prevalence and popularity of ICEs made us forget that they are a very inefficient hack to get around electric energy storage challenges.

I am anything but a tree hugger or environmental socialist but when I took the first ride in a Tesla S almost 5 years ago my first thought was "Holy smoke" and my second thought was that anyone spending the same coin on an ICE driven car would be a luddite and a fool.

And that was just the beginning of the excitement opportunities electric drives would offer in a car. Then came 700+hp, 1000Nm of torque and independent torque control of all wheels.

German rally ace Walter Röhrl spoke after a test drive about a "new dimension" of vehicle performance and felt blessed to have experienced this in his lifetime. (Translation of the actual words spoken is his Bavarian accent "Do leckst mi om Oasch" during the first few hundred meters is not suitable for the office.) This from a guy who has seen the best of the best in ICE and suspension technology during his career.

Yes, there are many folks out there who are sadly mistaken that electric vehicles will bring upon us dancing Unicorns under a flower-studded rainbow but that should not tempt anyone else to doubt or deny the measurable benefits of this technology.

[EastCoastCB]

Aren't Crowns a good bit heavier than normal school buses?