Frame Rust

[Corbi]

I haven't posted for a while. Corbi is in bad shape. I spent some time removing her starter motor, then replaced it. Without a floor jack, the install is challenging while parked on the street. Anyway, with the right-side wheel off, I saw rust -through around the stairs, and the small rust-hole in the frame is now large enough to be a safety concern. So what to do? I read in a few places that cars with this feature are directed to the recycler. Then I discovered the Artisans Asylum. They have a well equipped metal working shop. There are MIG and Oxy-A welders. Shop space fees are reasonable. There is off-street parking, but no garage lift. So, to get to the point, if I remove and reconstruct the stairs, will that allow me enough access to the part of the frame that needs repair? This will allow me access from above that area rather than from below, which is the situation now. Alternatively, can I fabricate a part that fits over the area and will create a strong bond? These are all questions that need answers before I can get a new inspection sticker.

[ewo1]

Removing the stairs will get you more clearance but what I would be more concerned is, how much rust is INSIDE the boxed frame.

without being there it is hard to suggest on how to fix that but first thing you need to do is evaluate the frame in it's totality. Is this one easy spot to repair or is there more.
You will obviously have much more rust, I would consider running some sort of scraping tool inside the boxed frame, see how much loose rust there is inside. It nor alot and the repair (from the pics) is reasonable to do, I would also OSPHO the entire underbody including the inside portion of the boxed frame, where it is boxed that is.

My Kentucky bus had quite a bit of rust and this is what I did to STOP the rust growth.

It is a good idea to OSPHO the underside at least once a year if you are in a rust belt.

[Corbi]

it's totality. Is this one easy spot to repair or is there more.
You will obviously have much more rust, I would consider running some sort of scraping tool inside the boxed frame, see how much loose rust there is inside. It nor alot and the repair (from the pics) is reasonable to do, I would also OSPHO the entire underbody including the inside portion of the boxed frame, where it is boxed that is.

All good suggestions. I’ve neglected the underbody. I have focused on the frontend. I scraped, osphoed (?) primed and applied Woolwax on all the suspension and steering parts. I will check again for frame damage in the rear. I used a spray tank with a wand to apply the ospho as far as I can inside the rails. I read that there is a type of tank that you connect to an air compressor that has long flexible wand nozzles.

Any thoughts about cutting through the frame with a torch, removing damaged areas, then making a new piece to weld in?

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by Corbi

Any thoughts about cutting through the frame with a torch, removing damaged areas, then making a new piece to weld in?

If you are a popcorn welder like I am...No.......
But in reality you have to measure the totality of the rust situation on the frame to make any kind of evaluation. Not being there myself and looking I cannot give any thoughts on this question.

Rat rodders almost always cut and reweld frames, people are always stretching or shortening frames. that being said, can it be done, yes.
Is it worth the trouble on your bus ... ????

My RE bus came from Kentucky. frame had a bit more than flash rust. I have scraped all the loose stuff off, Ospho'd and primed with rusty metal primer.
When it gets a bit cooler (October ??) I am gonna go back and start painting some of the areas with implement paint.

[nikitis]

You can fix frames. I'd take a Phillips screwdriver and a small hammer and tap the screwdriver into the frame all around to see where it pokes through it bends and mark with white chalk or marker to draw a map of what needs to be replaced. If you can poke a hole or move at all in the slightest it's got to go. Then cut it out while supporting the bus with backup struts of course.

Make a dot everywhere it's weak then move and repeat till you've got it all. The. Play a game of connect the dots like when you were a kid. And grind wheel it all away inside the circle you created. Then on edges make an angle cut to allow room for new weld and metal to bind to the new pieces. For thick metal welds you always want a v shape cavern with the two metal edges touching to fill in the new weld with. This is why people get popcorn welds because they don't prep enough.

Use metal plate at least as thick as prior if not thicker. Heavier is okay, thinner is not okay.

If you don't feel confident enough then have someone do it for you

[Corbi]

Nikitis, thank you for offering some hope of fending off an end of life situation. You and ewo1 concur that just making one repair and leaving other needed one makes no sense. Ewo1 brings up a good point about how extensive I find the damage and what skills and time I have to make a repair.

I've taken two workshops at the Artisans Asylum in basic welding and plan to attend two open metal-shop type evening events in early September. Someone can then explain whether I can use their equipment in their parkiing lot by the metal shop loading dock. For a day use fee, I can practice my welds in the metal shop.

Will I end the project? Not easily or willingly. I still have plans for improvements in the interior, the cab, and engine. Yet facing reality is important too. It's been a few years without an off street parking space. I have an amateur build-out on a less than ideal platform here in Massachusetts, where roads are salted when snow is forecast. Can I realistically postpone the inevitable? And for how long?

[Kentucky Dreaming]

Corbi, I would think long and hard before going much farther. That's some serious rust damage. How much is elsewhere on the frame? I ain't a expert on vehicle frames and such, but I have worked on them and been in the tool, die, and mold bidness for over 40 years. I been around literally tons of steel. That rust hole is scary.

But as with all things in life, the decision is yours, and yours alone. You will have support here whatever path you choose, Good luck, friend.

Be safe and keep us posted.

[skydawg]

Originally Posted by Kentucky Dreaming

Corbi, I would think long and hard before going much farther. That's some serious rust damage.

^ This 1000%. If you are thinking of putting any sort of serious money into the bus build to make it nice, find a different starting platform.

Even if you're planning to keep it rough and not spend much on it, it could be a safety concern. A lot of mechanics might even refuse to work on something rusted this bad.

[Corbi]

I went to the “social and project share” evening last week at the Artisans Asylum. A member who taught a welding class that I was in a while ago was there. I brought the bus to the parking lot so he could look at the damage. He slid underneath and looked closely at where the rust went through and the condition of the surrounding metal. He came up with two different plans to weld an initial patch to the frame, then attach other patches to that one. The other was to take a longer metal patch and make two slots that fit into the body mount bracket. I liked this alternative because the patch would have more surface to weld to. Another person at the meeting also looked at the damage and was very, well lets say confident that the hole was not bad enough to worry about the safety issue that I’m worried about. They both said that any body shop would do the work. I kind of doubted that. My experience is that a rusty 25 year old school bus is not something they want in their shop. I’m listening to what posters are saying and have to consider your views before going much further in my build. Because my inspection sticker has lapsed and my registration expires in February, I may try to buy time by covering the hole to pass inspection. Afterwards, I can make that decision to abandon Corbi to the forces of nature and man.

[nikitis]

Originally Posted by Corbi

I went to the “social and project share” evening last week at the Artisans Asylum. A member who taught a welding class that I was in a while ago was there. I brought the bus to the parking lot so he could look at the damage. He slid underneath and looked closely at where the rust went through and the condition of the surrounding metal. He came up with two different plans to weld an initial patch to the frame, then attach other patches to that one. The other was to take a longer metal patch and make two slots that fit into the body mount bracket. I liked this alternative because the patch would have more surface to weld to. Another person at the meeting also looked at the damage and was very, well lets say confident that the hole was not bad enough to worry about the safety issue that I’m worried about. They both said that any body shop would do the work. I kind of doubted that. My experience is that a rusty 25 year old school bus is not something they want in their shop. I’m listening to what posters are saying and have to consider your views before going much further in my build. Because my inspection sticker has lapsed and my registration expires in February, I may try to buy time by covering the hole to pass inspection. Afterwards, I can make that decision to abandon Corbi to the forces of nature and man.

Corbi, it's really not that bad. I've seen youtube videos of your exact situation and can watch how they repair them. I've done this myself to a trailer frame. I cut the chassis in 2, bent the angle, and welded them together, I then took a patch piece much like your friend was suggesting, and I've run an 8000lb mini excavator right over it to take the weight everytime I load it, and it holds like a champ.

Frames and chassis are saved every day like this. It just takes someone willing to do the work, and it sounds like there are people willing to do the work. I wouldn't give up on it so easily.

It's a 2 hour job to a welder.

[Slapdash]

Hey Corbi,

Thanks for reaching out on my site!

This does look, at first glance, pretty scary for 'normal' people. However, as others above have suggested, it does look fixable to me (not by me though, as I am the Wikipedia definition of 'popcorn welder').

Like Nikitis suggested, if you haven't poked about with a hammer and a screwdriver, that's a great start to assess the situation. I do know a genius welder in MA, but I'm afraid he's usually flat out. He chopped the (perfectly good) frame from a GMC TopKick and shortened it once. It was fascinating to me.

It sounds like you have some good starting points, depending on how deep you are into the build. If you have plenty of time and resources, you might consider a frame swap as well, but I don't think it's quite that bad yet. Either way, keep us posted!

Cheers,

K

[Corbi]

I have gone all in with the metal shop at the Artisans Asylum. I plan to improve my welding and fabrication skills over the next month. I took a plasma cutting and CNC skills workshop a week ago. I can apply these skills to cutting out each piece of metal to cover the rust through area. Having access to a metal shop helps.

I know some of the replies have brought up the safety issue of a repaired chassis. By learning to weld I'm responsible for the result. I do get that the frame condition might still be unsafe even after a repair. I plan to avoid backcountry travel, monitor the repair for signs of weakness or cracking, and stay home/ abandon if the repair fails in any way. I don't want to put anyone in danger because of a need to keep this build for a while longer. Thanks for everyone's advice; I have always felt supported by this community.

[ewo1]

Instead of just patching it up it might be a better idea to source a frame rail from another savana….less welding involved.

[Albatross]

Just because you can... Doesn't mean that you should.

It is definitely a better idea to simply replace things a lot of the time than it is to try to repair something that is broken. Major structural components are one of the things that fall in this area.