Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-26-2021, 07:57 PM   #21
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 209
Year: 2003
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT466e 215hp Allison 2500
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tejon7 View Post
A 12" roof raise changes the equation a bit. I'm no expert, but it seems reasonable that even on a stock bus, the window area is more likely to be the weakest point as opposed to the arched ceiling. In my bus, there are 2x as many arched roof ribs as window supports. By adding 12" to that window area, I think you're further cementing that as the weakest point. Since you're already going to significantly alter the original structure, does the headliner really matter any more? Or is it now just a few hundred pounds of unnecessary weight, 12" higher than it used to be?

Thank you Tejon


Plan on adding any needed supports to just this side of overkill.




Timeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 08:12 PM   #22
Bus Nut
 
Tejon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Western MT
Posts: 629
Year: 1990
Chassis: Crown Supercoach
Engine: Detroit 6-71TA, 10 sp.
Rated Cap: 90 (40')
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeline View Post
Plan on adding any needed supports to just this side of overkill.
Haha, I like the sound of that! But are you sure you don't want to cross onto the other side of overkill? The best buses always do
Tejon7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:50 PM   #23
Bus Crazy
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,607
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
We have the perf headliner as well. I've got half of ours dropped now. Had to cut off a stripped screw today and man am I glad it's not rivets. Especially when pulling those last couple of fastners....LOL


We're considering whether we should just keep the glass insulation and put it down in "caverns" at the bottoms of the walls since we've been told not to try spray foaming in there.


I'm beginning to wonder if I really want to put all that weight back up there or just go with something lighter that's still pretty thin.
__________________
YouTube: HAMSkoolie WEB: HAMSkoolie.com
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, we now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing. US Marines -- 6531, 3521. . . .Ret ASE brakes & elect. Ret (auto and aviation mech). Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater diver
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 12:30 PM   #24
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 209
Year: 2003
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT466e 215hp Allison 2500
Rated Cap: 77
Thanks all!


Another brain-sprinkle (not storm)


I could leave the headliner add (steel?) furring strips the length of the bus @ 16". Next cut out the headliner between the furring.


Saves me 1400 rivet removals, gains about 2" clearance, lets me spray foam directly to the skin, saves some of the structure, sheer, rigidity.



Thoughts please!


THANKS!
John
Timeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 12:37 PM   #25
Bus Geek
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
Whatever additional structural rigidity you're getting out of the headliner, you're only getting that if the material is continuous and unbroken. Even if you simply cut the material longitudinally every 16" (as opposed to removing all of the material between the furring strips) you would lose all of the rigidity it provides.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 01:18 PM   #26
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 209
Year: 2003
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT466e 215hp Allison 2500
Rated Cap: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
Whatever additional structural rigidity you're getting out of the headliner, you're only getting that if the material is continuous and unbroken. Even if you simply cut the material longitudinally every 16" (as opposed to removing all of the material between the furring strips) you would lose all of the rigidity it provides.

Thank you Musigenesis


You are probably right, but will it lead to problems ahead?



From the outside the skin is riveted @ 6" across the top on every rib. Plan on doing a lot of dirt roads and don't want to rattle to roof panels loose.



Can't find any cases of it being a problem, but google is not my friend sometimes.





THANKS!
John
Timeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 01:31 PM   #27
Bus Geek
 
musigenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,995
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
I don't think you're going to rattle your roof panels loose no matter what you do with the headliner. Solid rivets pretty much can't rattle loose, as they're cylinders of metal deformed on both ends. The only "structural" concern you might have is whether the roof panels will keep the ribs properly spaced in the event of a rollover (a pretty rare event), or whether the stresses involved in such an accident will tear the rivets through the sheet metal and allow the ribs to deform.
__________________
Rusty 87 build thread
musigenesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2021, 03:21 PM   #28
Bus Crazy
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,607
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
While screws are much easier than rivets for demo, rivets aren't all that horrid if you're getting rid of the headliner. No they're not as easy as screws but with an air hammer and compressor (not a pancake but one with a tank...about $150 at Harbor Freight) they can be cut or punched out fairly easily with a little practice.
And as a bonus you'll build up those biceps. LOL
That spray foam with the entire liner removed will provide environmental seal, stop condensation, reduce rattling, and insulate.
Search YouTube. There are a couple of vids out there where they're cutting rivets off with air hammers rather than drilling them.
__________________
YouTube: HAMSkoolie WEB: HAMSkoolie.com
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, we now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing. US Marines -- 6531, 3521. . . .Ret ASE brakes & elect. Ret (auto and aviation mech). Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater diver
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2021, 04:11 PM   #29
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Portland
Posts: 11
Year: 1997
Coachwork: GMC
Chassis: Bluebird 24'
Engine: 6.2 GMC Diesel
Rated Cap: 10,000
We Kept It

We removed one of the side panels to check for moisture/mold and it was sry as a bone. Thats in the PNW. If your bus is from a heavily winter salted environment, I’d do a deeper check…
mymincave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2021, 06:25 PM   #30
Mini-Skoolie
 
robertkuntz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Texas
Posts: 22
Year: 1981
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: GMC B6000
Engine: Chevy 350, Turbo 400
Rated Cap: 64
Thumbs up Keep it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeline View Post
My Bluebird has a metal headliner with 1 3/4 inches of fiberglass insulation behind. What about leaving it in place and adding 3" of spray foam on top?
I've got the same thing and I bought my bus with a minimal older complete conversion. When I say minimal, all of the amenities of home, small kitchen, bath, full electric, etc, but no insulation on the floor (peal and stick carpet on original floor) and original roof ceiling panels and insulation.

I am currently here at the Awesome Possum DIY ranch in Texas where it was 103 today. Granted I ditched the old roof top AC and installed a 9000btu minisplit, the roof is cool to the touch - even with the old AC.

I don't know why people remove the panels. They are part of the structural integrity. I did some research on this and by removing the panels, you add to the chance of a more disastrous outcome to a collision or wreck...by way of weakening a system that is part of the designed safety perimeters for protecting the passengers.

I've lived with the metal ceiling for over a year now. I have been slowly remodeling my bus, and in the near future I am going to have a wood ceiling to go along with my wood floors (mounted to original ceiling) I don't feel the need to add more insulation. Even with the little insulation I have in this bus, it stays cool, and even at these temperatures.

One thing that I did learn about sub-zero temps this last winter is...the floor definitely has to be insulated. It's like a freezer when it gets cold. Though instead of adding additional height to the floor and needing a roof raise, I plan to spray foam under the bus.

The moral of the story, keep the panels!

~Robert
"Old School"
1981 GMC 11 Window Blue Bird
__________________
New full-time #buslifer
robertkuntz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2021, 07:37 PM   #31
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 271
Ohhh insulation and structural integrity. Fun topics. I’d keep the internal skin, and insulated the exterior. That skin is structural (according to a shop that exclusively works on busses). I did my research. But vapor barrier is important to seal stuff off and not allow breathing when it’s freezing outside amd you’ve got the drip stove cranked inside. So be mindful of vapor barrier and venting. But my Amtrans doesn’t leak, when I talked to the bus fixit guys they warned about farting around with the roof. They suggested a black mastic stuff on each rib and screwing or riveting the panels back on cause vibration will undo screws
Amd make noise. So black mastic stuff (non technical name) keeps things tight weather amd no vibrations. I’m putting solar panels on my roof, I will use some preformed strut type material and spray foam on top of them then do a hard coating over the foam, then install solar panels leaving a 4” gap between panels and spray foamed roof.
Good luck. How tall are you? Lowering ceiling height is a pain in the head. If you are 6’ or above.

Cheers.
Dirtdoctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2021, 07:43 PM   #32
Bus Geek
 
o1marc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
While the interior skin is structural, these bus bodies are way overbuilt to safely carry our children. When converting we can lose some of the structural integrity, and still be more than in the safe zone. While removing structural integrity removing the ceiling, we put much of it back with wood or whatever other products some use. IMHO, the subject is much ado about nothing. Consider that the BlueBird Wanderlodge RV is a school bus with half the amount of ribs.
__________________
I Thank God That He Gifted Me with Common Sense
o1marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2021, 09:23 PM   #33
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Union Bridge Maryland
Posts: 103
Year: 2002
I have removed the head liner,then installed 1.5"x.75" wood strips 8" on center front to back. Taped wires to walls and had it sprayed foam. Stiffened up roof, we have had eight of us up there at an event, no problem. The wood strips add thickness to insulation,make it super easy to panel, did side walls too.
incubus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2021, 10:50 AM   #34
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Communist State of New Jersey
Posts: 964
Year: 2004
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
Rated Cap: 27,500
Since I'm one of the folks who got into an argument about taking out the inner liner I thought I'd comment. Last year in a thread just like this one I commented that I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably in my bus until I took out the inner skin and got rid of the insulation. Another member didn't like that and a melee insured. I tried to explain that my rationale was based on finding large areas of blackened insulation in the sections of liner above the rear ceiling (I removed to cut off 7' of the rear) that could have been black mold and I didn't want to chance it but he wasn't having any of it.

A couple weeks ago I finally got to the point at which it was time to do the deed but I decided I didn't want to remove the liners, just pull them back enough to get the insulation out which I did. There were sections of the wall insulation that were soaking wet but all the insulation in the ceiling was dry and clean.

There's no question in my mind that the liner in my bus is structural. I removed somewhere between 6 and 800 screws, that's just too many to not be structural. I didn't take any panel completely off to make it easier to get the alignment right when I reattach them. I actually put screws back in a couple panels just to see if my theory that it's doable is correct.

For me the decision was entirely time based. I HAVE TO be out of here this fall. That's not enough time (for me) to reskin the interior and finish the buildout so I'm foaming and screwing the panels back in place. I wish I could take the time to spray paint the interior but it ain't happening. I'll be lucky to have time to do a deep cleaning before I put the 'stuff' in the bus.

Below are a couple pics of what the loosened panels look like.

I was able to find a couple pictures of the insulation that was blackened which are below. There was damage to both top rear corners of the bus and I assume water had been getting in through those spots for years.







Oldyeller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2021, 08:05 AM   #35
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 209
Year: 2003
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DT466e 215hp Allison 2500
Rated Cap: 77
Thank you for taking the time to post everyone!
John
Timeline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2021, 05:32 PM   #36
Bus Crazy
 
HamSkoolie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,607
Year: 1996
Coachwork: AmTran (Now Navistar)
Engine: DT444E (7.3L) International
Rated Cap: 31,800 pounds
I had some areas that looked like that in my fiberglass (just came out this week and is still stacked on the floor.


I didn't think it looked like mold but mine is all coming out along with all the interior steel panels below the steel. I dropped the perforated steel ceiling after numbering and putting an arrow on each one for re installation. I don't expect a lot of trouble but I spent decades working on military and civilian vehicles and airplanes.
__________________
YouTube: HAMSkoolie WEB: HAMSkoolie.com
We've done so much, for so long, with so little, we now do the impossible, overnight, with nothing. US Marines -- 6531, 3521. . . .Ret ASE brakes & elect. Ret (auto and aviation mech). Extra Class HAM, NAUI/PADI OpenWater diver
HamSkoolie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2021, 06:22 PM   #37
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Communist State of New Jersey
Posts: 964
Year: 2004
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
Rated Cap: 27,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HamSkoolie View Post
I had some areas that looked like that in my fiberglass (just came out this week and is still stacked on the floor.


I didn't think it looked like mold but mine is all coming out along with all the interior steel panels below the steel. I dropped the perforated steel ceiling after numbering and putting an arrow on each one for re installation. I don't expect a lot of trouble but I spent decades working on military and civilian vehicles and airplanes.
Yea in my mind it was better safe than sorry.

I had seen comments here that once you drop those inner skins it's very difficult to realign the holes which I why I decided on my 'let 'em hang' method. For me the problem in completely removing would be lifting them into place again. I really don't have help and there is no way I could lift, hold and then align them. It's just easier for me to leave them attached.
Oldyeller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2021, 01:13 AM   #38
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Baja often, Oregon frequently
Posts: 427
Year: 1996
Coachwork: Our hot little grubbies...
Chassis: Ford CF8000 ExpeditionVehicle
Engine: Cummins 505ci mechanical
Rated Cap: Five Heelers
I tend toward simple.
.
If I was me, I would leave everything intact.
I would drill a few tiny holes in the headliner.
I would squirt expanding foam insulation into each hole.
.
After the foam expands and sets, I would trim the excess (with this stuff, I always load the cavity extravagantly).
.
Scuff the metal, spray it with upholstery adhesive designed for automotive headliner fabric, press my fabric in place.
Over and done.
LargeMargeInBaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2021, 09:02 AM   #39
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Communist State of New Jersey
Posts: 964
Year: 2004
Coachwork: IC
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
Rated Cap: 27,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeMargeInBaja View Post
I tend toward simple.
.
If I was me, I would leave everything intact.
I would drill a few tiny holes in the headliner.
I would squirt expanding foam insulation into each hole.
.
After the foam expands and sets, I would trim the excess (with this stuff, I always load the cavity extravagantly).
.
Scuff the metal, spray it with upholstery adhesive designed for automotive headliner fabric, press my fabric in place.
Over and done.
I thought about cutting a slot into each 'bay' that needed insulation, pulling the batting out throught that slot then spraying in foam. I think it would have worked but I also think it would have taken just as long that way and I probably couldn't have gotten all the batting. It would have been hit or miss. If you didn't remove the batting, all you'd do is end up with blobs of foam around each hole and not even distribution.
Oldyeller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2021, 09:55 AM   #40
Bus Geek
 
EastCoastCB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Bear in mind its a very special kind of foam that's used when injecting into cavities. Otherwise it won't properly cure and you'll make it an even bigger job than it needs to be.
EastCoastCB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.