heater = radiator?

[jazty]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

if all of your coolant in the heater loops is cold you will in fact instamtly drop your engine temp when you open that valve because you start pumpimg 80 degree coolant into a 200+ degree loop... so yeah it will definitely drop it...

no doubt the interior heaters help and may act as secondary radiators.. im a proponent of first making the factory gear work correctly.. over-heating your bus engine is no laughing matter...

-Christopher

Yes, I crack the valve and slowly open it over time to not shock the system. When the valve is fully opened and the fans are on it keeps things running nice and cool. It's not the preferred solution, but it sure beats overheating in a pinch.
I'll replace the fan clutch one of these days, but I still like the idea of an auxiliary rad. The fan should run less and it's a neat backup system for another fan failure. Anyone with a split-rad can appreciate an aux rad, I reckon.

[Njsurf73]

I just did a quick search and the local pull apart : radiator 3/4 core - $39.00
Radiator fan (multiple fan unit) $29.00
And if I am not mistaken you can get both of these from a jeep grand Cherokee. Single vehicle donor and factory fit! Lol
So for under $100.00 and some ingenuity a secondary radiator could be set up.



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[cadillackid]

yes I used that same thing ion a pinch when I was driving my bus home from texas.. your biggest nemesis wit ha 444E is the split radiator design and the fact your fan clutches trigger off of radiator AIR temperature...

your clutch may very well be bad, or you may just need to adjust the coil on it down a few nothces so that it runs more..

using bus heaters definitely does help move heat but sure makes the occupants of the bus sweat..

the Navistar radiators are notorious for plugging up inside as well, as are the thermostats known to stick ..

I have yet to take out and steam my radiator, but have replaced my thermostat , and fan clutch and cleaned the radiator fins..

im running a 180 Tstat which raises the actual radiator temperature a bit so that im getting full flow a bit earlier.. in cold ohio 10 degree weather I was srtill reach 175-185 easily which is in good range not to damage the engine...

my last test was the other dat it was 84 (heat valves closed and the Air-Conditioner on Maxx..)and I ran it flat out floored coming off the toll booth to the sunshine skyway bridge which is a very steep incline for close to a mile or so.. the bus started out at 72 MPH (traffic limited) after accelerating from 20 at the toll booth floored.. . and I slowed to about 66 by the top of the bridge.. my fan turned on high speed at about temp 201,, it stayed about 203 to 205 up the hill.. because i have 148,000 miles on the engine I did run the oil temp up to 214 on the climb.. aftewr the climb the fan stayed on until I dropped to 193 and all was good... previous to my fixes I ran the temp up to 225 in fall 75 degree weather making a less steep climb.. and had to turn on the heaters which dropped it only to about 210.. allowing my oil temp to stay up at 222 or so... I dont like iot that hot.. plus I was a roasty toasty driver in the seat..

you dont really want to mess around with these engines too much in regards to the cooling systems.. using stop-gaps can easily get you in trouble..

the fact is its a Piss-poor design by Navistar.. i do believe some sort of auxillary radiator would be very nice in extreme climates and I may install one, but first thing is to make sure the factory system is in perfect working order.. so next I'll pull and steam flush or replace my radiator..
-Christopher

[Njsurf73]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

yes I used that same thing ion a pinch when I was driving my bus home from texas.. your biggest nemesis wit ha 444E is the split radiator design and the fact your fan clutches trigger off of radiator AIR temperature...

your clutch may very well be bad, or you may just need to adjust the coil on it down a few nothces so that it runs more..

using bus heaters definitely does help move heat but sure makes the occupants of the bus sweat..

the Navistar radiators are notorious for plugging up inside as well, as are the thermostats known to stick ..

I have yet to take out and steam my radiator, but have replaced my thermostat , and fan clutch and cleaned the radiator fins..

im running a 180 Tstat which raises the actual radiator temperature a bit so that im getting full flow a bit earlier.. in cold ohio 10 degree weather I was srtill reach 175-185 easily which is in good range not to damage the engine...

my last test was the other dat it was 84 (heat valves closed and the Air-Conditioner on Maxx..)and I ran it flat out floored coming off the toll booth to the sunshine skyway bridge which is a very steep incline for close to a mile or so.. the bus started out at 72 MPH (traffic limited) after accelerating from 20 at the toll booth floored.. . and I slowed to about 66 by the top of the bridge.. my fan turned on high speed at about temp 201,, it stayed about 203 to 205 up the hill.. because i have 148,000 miles on the engine I did run the oil temp up to 214 on the climb.. aftewr the climb the fan stayed on until I dropped to 193 and all was good... previous to my fixes I ran the temp up to 225 in fall 75 degree weather making a less steep climb.. and had to turn on the heaters which dropped it only to about 210.. allowing my oil temp to stay up at 222 or so... I dont like iot that hot.. plus I was a roasty toasty driver in the seat..

you dont really want to mess around with these engines too much in regards to the cooling systems.. using stop-gaps can easily get you in trouble..

the fact is its a Piss-poor design by Navistar.. i do believe some sort of auxillary radiator would be very nice in extreme climates and I may install one, but first thing is to make sure the factory system is in perfect working order.. so next I'll pull and steam flush or replace my radiator..
-Christopher

I agree, have the original equipment running as intended, but I am planning on a Re bus and I live in a very hilly area. I would like the peace of mind of having an aux radiator. I may never need it, but I plan on 95% of my use to be during summer.

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[mdeese]

Here are a few shots of what my heaters look like. Two of them have the hose under the bus, the other two have hoses that run through the bus. It seems like it would be pretty easy to move them under and mount the heaters there, I have plenty of sheeting from the ceiling to construct some type f splash guards.

[Tango]

Hmmmm...I've had a number of custom rads built here in Houston over the years (usually adding one to two rows) on the cheap. Maybe $150 bucks from the local Cuban brothers in the Montrose area.

But I agree with Cadillac...if the temp sensor is off...no amount of area is gonna help.

[mdeese]

I'm not overheating or running hot, I've just read it is to be expected from my motor/tranny combo. The trip from Washington to Texas saw her average 180-190 with some climbs to 200ish on long ascents but that was empty.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by mdeese

I'm not overheating or running hot, I've just read it is to be expected from my motor/tranny combo. The trip from Washington to Texas saw her average 180-190 with some climbs to 200ish on long ascents but that was empty.

you have an RE.. the game is different on an RE with a T-444E, you have a hydraulic fan most likely, and you have a full-size radiator...

if you lool at the FE and the CE with the 444E.. you'll notice a split down the center of the grill. ome side of that is the radiator and the other side of that is the Turbo cooler...

you have very little "ballast" so to say... very little coolant to heat up before you are rising the temp quickly..

a little tidbit of info// as you may know that engine was used in the ford Diesel pickups as a power-stroke 7.3... those diesel pickup trucks have larger capacity radiators than the school busses mentioned above..

an RE should engage its fan much faster and easier and has more radiator area to cool that 444E... getting up to 200 is quite normal.. as you saw from my test I had to work to keep mine down in that realm with mny "
half-a-radiator..

the posts im reading about him running a known fan clutch but wanting to patch it together with heaters are simply playing with fire if that bus ends up on a steep grade in summer heat at highway speed.. damage begins to occur at 230 degrees in these engines... the computer has the alarm bells set to go off at that temperature. without a working fan he WILL come close to that temperature...

-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Tango - its really hard on most T444E busses to alter the rad size as Navistar uses a split radiator / turbo cooler design..

what can be done is an auxilliary radiator underneath.. use 1 inch line radiator from a car like a honda or toyota and a nice electric fan. you can paerallel 2 of them and get coolant like 100 degrees or lower mixing with your main coolant stream which will run your temperatures down nicely,

you can also fix up your 444E so its factory fan works corretcly too by adjusting the clutch temperature down .. I have redbyrd's clkutch adjusted nice and low ..

this early week in florida itsa going to be mid 80s and humid so I'll give it a good test this week..

alot of cooling issues come as a result of factory original equipment not working the correct way.. often times makign the factory equipment work right will net you the results you need without lots of klougey mods..

-Christopher

I've been looking and I think there are full size rad upgrades available for our CE 444e's. Would require some reworking of the intercooler setup, but its doable, possibly. IDK.
I'd love to really get the temps under full control. My lil bus with the 444 will do nearly 75 mph, but anything over about 60 or so and it starts heating up and keeps doing so till I back off to 55 or 60.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I've been looking and I think there are full size rad upgrades available for our CE 444e's. Would require some reworking of the intercooler setup, but its doable, possibly. IDK.
I'd love to really get the temps under full control. My lil bus with the 444 will do nearly 75 mph, but anything over about 60 or so and it starts heating up and keeps doing so till I back off to 55 or 60.

I need to look into the later model stuff and see if anythiung was made for say the VT-365.. I know the hood was different but could be the core supports are the same and turbo hoses are turbo hoses and other than size are pretty easy to buy and work with... lots of stuff from the car-world can be put into play with the turbo piping..

does your fan spin full speed? i know on m,ine I had to adjust it down... the clutch that kit-masters and others list for mine is all the same and looks identical to yours... it seems to be factory set too high...

we also need to run the computer on yours while driving to make sure your gauge on the dash is halfway accurate... the dash gauge works from the computer.. my gauge reads low when the temps are below say 195. and then reads way high when the temps get up to 210... when my engine was 220 before I fixed the fan, my dash gauge said it was above 230....

but if you see the temp go up above 210 and onward toware the red and dont hear a fan blazin then that clutch isnt engaging... you definitely KNOW when the fan is ripping..

-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I need to look into the later model stuff and see if anythiung was made for say the VT-365.. I know the hood was different but could be the core supports are the same and turbo hoses are turbo hoses and other than size are pretty easy to buy and work with... lots of stuff from the car-world can be put into play with the turbo piping..

does your fan spin full speed? i know on m,ine I had to adjust it down... the clutch that kit-masters and others list for mine is all the same and looks identical to yours... it seems to be factory set too high...

we also need to run the computer on yours while driving to make sure your gauge on the dash is halfway accurate... the dash gauge works from the computer.. my gauge reads low when the temps are below say 195. and then reads way high when the temps get up to 210... when my engine was 220 before I fixed the fan, my dash gauge said it was above 230....

but if you see the temp go up above 210 and onward toware the red and dont hear a fan blazin then that clutch isnt engaging... you definitely KNOW when the fan is ripping..

-Christopher

I can't hear too well I have tinnitus, so maybe I'm just not gona hear em, IDK. I can't tell when the fan kick on with either bus.
I was thinking more along the lines of the 3900 radiators, you know how I feel about anything having to do with that 6.0/365! lol
The rad in my non intercooled 3900 looks just like the one in my 3800 only the 3800's is half a rad and half an intercooler.
I've found "performance" aluminum rads supposedly for our buses that appear to be full size, so I'm assuming folks relocate the intercoolers or something.

[Njsurf73]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I can't hear too well I have tinnitus, so maybe I'm just not gona hear em, IDK.
I was thinking more along the lines of the 3900 radiators, you know how I feel about anything having to do with that 6.0/365! lol
The rad in my non intercooled 3900 looks just like the one in my 3800 only the 3800's is half a rad and half an intercooler.
I've found "performance" aluminum rads supposedly for our buses that appear to be full size, so I'm assuming folks relocate the intercoolers or something.

Is there room to put the intercooler in front? Maybe source a CAT (just for you eccb lol) CAC and mount it in front.

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[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Njsurf73

Is there room to put the intercooler in front? Maybe source a CAT (just for you eccb lol) CAC and mount it in front.

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THAT is the kinda setup I've been pondering!
I'll definitely look into that. I'd LOVE to fully understand these engines and really get to know em. There are a TON of buses out there with em, so I may as well try!
If I could find a way to keep this thing cool and happy, I'll keep it forever!
Fwiw- mine stays just under 180 pretty much all the time.
Only on LONG stretches at high mph do I see any difference.

[cadillackid]

ill have ot give it some more looks because im defimitely into the same thoughts as you about it.. I look at the grill of damn every International truck / bus i walk in front of... at 15 PSI of boost max it seems to me the intercooler is size a bit larger than needbe .. though im sure others can give me the exact calculations used for truck diesels vs performance cars... but an intercooler for a 7.3 ford pickup ,I think pipes out with a "front-of-radiator" friendly configuration so it could be located in front of the radiator...

the 4700 trucks were built with Air-Conditioner coilsd in front of the rads and still have plenty of room in front before the grill..

what I should do is take mine and put temperature sensors on mine Past the turbo and past the cooler to see really how much is gained from it..

after all your DT-466 on the ward, doesnt have one correct?

id be interested to see where it is on the RE 444E's

part of me also has to wonder at 75 MPH, how much heat is being tossed at the cooling system from the 545. mine has a trans-temp gage and that trans is always 160 or below.. that unl;ocked converter *IS* making heat.. so it has to be going somewhere.. probably that poor little rad.. so I wonder if an external Trans cooler helps the engine to run cooler at higher speeds..

when I did my little test with the skyway bridge the other day my fan was BLASTING the whole time to keep the temperature in check..

when im in DEV, foot buried on an uphill, (It also has the 1/2 radiator).. my temp hits 190, my fan Blazes for maybe 1 minute, 2 at most. gauge drops quickly to 180 and then kicks back off... that bus I believe has an external trans cooler that sits below the radiator... at least I think it does.. i'll double check.. i dont have a trans gauge on that one so i dont know if that 545 gets hot.. or if its just that my DT360 has LOTS OF IRON to soak up the heat unlike the 7.3 that doesnt..

-Christopher

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

THAT is the kinda setup I've been pondering!
I'll definitely look into that. I'd LOVE to fully understand these engines and really get to know em. There are a TON of buses out there with em, so I may as well try!
If I could find a way to keep this thing cool and happy, I'll keep it forever!
Fwiw- mine stays just under 180 pretty much all the time.
Only on LONG stretches at high mph do I see any difference.

YES.. mine does not run hot and the fan doesnt really kick at all until I drive it over 60 MPH on a stretch of 15 miles or more.. and we all know i run 1000 mile jaunts.. so bel;ieve me I *WILL* be helping to find us all a solutiomn to this..
-Christopher

[EastCoastCB]

Next time you're out this way you should drive this shorty, man!
I'm sure you'd be able to tell me whats what.
And you can take a look at the rad/cooling system on the Ward. The Ward is on a 3900 chassis.
And I totally agree on the trans temp- I was thinking that, too!!!
The only time the temps ever went up any at slow speeds was in apopka downtown rush hour orlando type traffic for 20 miles or so. Didn't go real high, but did go up some.

[Rogue1bus]

I have a 30’ Amtran RE with t444e 545.

I removed the air intake on the drivers side of the engine compartment to make more room to build a loft bed frame. I also cut vents into the side door on the drivers side to make up for some of the lost ventilation. And now at a gentle cruise my clutch fan cuts on and run for a minuteAttachment 1 every ~5 minutes or so. I’m going to take the door with the vents off today and drive today to see if the clutch fan runs less often.
But I’m seriously considering mounting my rear heater under the bus like being discussed in this thread. It seems to me the clutch fan should stay off unless the engine is under a heavy load.... thoughts?

[juliol]

Hey Rogue, can you post pics of the ventilation setup you have now after removing the air intake.

[Rogue1bus]

Originally Posted by juliol

Hey Rogue, can you post pics of the ventilation setup you have now after removing the air intake.

Old setup, then I cut out a larger hole and added a fin to pull in more air

Attachment 1Attachment 1

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

transmission fluid pressures will destroy a bus heater.. they are designed for 10-17 PSI antifreeze pressure tested and certified, not 1000 PSI trans fluid..

im working on a project with repurposing A/C condensers as oil coolers... they are high pressure capable and weather proof..

-Christopher

One thousand PSI transmission fluid? Hardly! My transmission's fluid loop through the filter and heat exchanger is at well less than 100 PSI. At a thousand PSI the filters would be popping like, er, anything with 1000 PSI in it.

I added an extra remote cooler with a 14" electric fan for my transmission fluid, so now it's cooled before it even reaches the engine's heat exchanger, resulting in appreciably less heatload into the coolant. My engine coolant temperature is now lower than before, but the transmission will still get quickly warmed up in colder weather. Well worth it.

John