I tried to sort this out, but I need reinforcements. Bus won't start...ughhh

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by DoubleO7

Is it a handicapper bus?

No...84 passenger normal bus

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by superdave

when you start it from the rear you need to have the key turned on and the engine door button pushed in for it to work.

I know that..it didn't work

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by turf

don't air your bus up in an attempt to start it! it will only roll away. lack of air is not stopping the starter.

it didn't break while it sat there. your starter didn't go bad, your solenoid didnt go bad since you havent used them.

it something simple you have overlooked. or damage that you caused

trans in neutral
close doors or child counter
low voltage

with all the race cars experience in the world, you sound pretty green with diesel buses.

The bus isn't rolling anywhere, it's inside my warehouse. I am airing it up to move it away from the wall.

I agree...it's very likely something simple...the bus ran fine and there is not going to be mechanical failures out of nowhere. It's an interrupt, I just have to find it and/or figure out why.

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by turf

don't air your bus up in an attempt to start it! it will only roll away. lack of air is not stopping the starter.

it didn't break while it sat there. your starter didn't go bad, your solenoid didnt go bad since you havent used them.

it something simple you have overlooked. or damage that you caused

trans in neutral
close doors or child counter
low voltage

with all the race cars experience in the world, you sound pretty green with diesel buses.

After re-reading this, I'm going to ask you to move on. I don't have any more patience for your attitude.

I never said I was airing the bus up to enable it to start. I was testing the solenoids in the side panel to try and identify an interrupt, not insinuating they were bad. I don't think anything is bad, I purely think that there is an interlock but bypassing it comes down to identifying where to actually find the point beyond it.

Apparently you half read the comments then interject your attitude and off the cuff bs. So just move on.

And if you'd like me to prove any of my automotive background I have plenty of video being interviewed at SEMA and my cars featured on G4 and Speed TV...say the word.

[turf]

if its not simply a discharged battery. i'm wrong.

i gave you the benefit of a doubt with your electrical skills not to f up a working bus. apparently you cut wires first and ask questions later.

return all your locks to original wiring. how would you know if the interlock is a normally open or closed circuit? you cut the wires out and are asking us what happened. good luck fixing it.

i still think its your battery. do you know what a child counter is?

if you want to tell us about sema, go right ahead. i'm sure its a great story!

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by RC000E

After re-reading this, I'm going to ask you to move on. I don't have any more patience for your attitude.

I never said I was airing the bus up to enable it to start. I was testing the solenoids in the side panel to try and identify an interrupt, not insinuating they were bad. I don't think anything is bad, I purely think that there is an interlock but bypassing it comes down to identifying where to actually find the point beyond it.

Apparently you half read the comments then interject your attitude and off the cuff bs. So just move on.

And if you'd like me to prove any of my automotive background I have plenty of video being interviewed at SEMA and my cars featured on G4 and Speed TV...say the word.

Dude you really should CHILL. How is this turning into a pissing contest?
I know how frustrating these things can be- see my wiper debacle. I've built show cars, build my own mopeds.... But the wipers on my bus nearly bested me. Even stumped some friends and forum members.

[superdave]

Originally Posted by RC000E

I know that..it didn't work

ok, when I screwed my safety lock crap up I could still start my bus from the engine compartment so I m o its not the safety system. my bus is two years older tho. good luck that's all I got. if you take some close ups of the electric panel I might be able to spot the wires they installed the lock on, its one less thing to worry about. good luck

[BlackJohn]

Until you offer a public apology to turf and this forum I have no further interest in your us problems either. He gave you some very prudent advice to no avail it seems when you can't even read well enough to answer questions posed to you. Questions we have to ask because of your inability to describe the condition or problems existing. Are we mind readers here, certainly not me. Still waiting on some answers to those so why haven't you answered them?

I also agree that you don't have the skill or knowledge to work through this so your background proves absolutely nothing.

If you want respect you better show it to others.

Good luck with your issues. It'll be nice to know what you find or how much you want when you go to resell your problem bus.

[turf]

thanks guys!

no apology needed! i was trolling as much as giving advice. but however simplistic my advice is, the op has yet to fully describe his issues.

Sorry if i come off flippant and half read. that's how i am in real life too!

don't rule out the really simple stuff. have you figured out what a child counter is? it is the only interlock not mentioned by anyone yet. you need to confirm if you have one or not. and voltage drops across the wires are helpful.

you never get 12v through out the vehicle. if you were testing with your fluke, you'd know the voltage up front is less than the voltage by the batteries.

In my first year of bus ownership i bought 4 group 31 batteries that my bus needs to start. i killed two of those batteries by shorting out the electric system. new batteries can fail. especially if you spend the day jumping the heating grid instead of the starter.

how many and what size are your starting batteries?

sorry i was rude. please answer the many questions that we have asked you. sounds and clicks matter. we all want your bus up and running, but if you don't reply, the knowledgeable people here (not me) can't help.

did you have the key on while removing wires? when was the last time you heard the starter turn over?did you try it in between interlock removal?

i'm still sticking with low volts as your problem. post a pic of you charging those batteries for a day with that 200A charger.

did you ever say what year your bus is? is this an electronic motor or a mechanical one? did i see a data cable in your fuse box? maybe its time to check out a code reader?

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by superdave

ok, when I screwed my safety lock crap up I could still start my bus from the engine compartment so I m o its not the safety system. my bus is two years older tho. good luck that's all I got. if you take some close ups of the electric panel I might be able to spot the wires they installed the lock on, its one less thing to worry about. good luck

Looking at the most recent diagram I found, the rear start button is early in the system like the ignition switch. The nuetral switch/vim and the interlock is between it, until the 12v goes to the starter relay.

This is why I entered the rear modular box area. From the book it says the starter relay is under the air filter assembly. If I can activate the 12v lead coming from the interlock and the starter activates then I at least know it's in between the push start button and the rear starter relay.

If it is the hatches, I've connected those two wires to close the circuit and left them opened, no change. There isn't much else to do with them, but clearly they served a purpose. I looked on Transpec's page and they do indicate the wires would be for a buzzer, but connecting them should act as a closed microswitch.

I side with the obvious case that, the bus ran perfectly fine until the sign, and two roof hatches were removed, along with the seats. All simple systems though, with not much to really troubleshoot.

I'll figure it out. I've found some good diagrams via searching this forum and that is enough for me to move forward. I hadn't located those when I started the thread.

Thanks for your comment.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by RC000E

Looking at the most recent diagram I found, the rear start button is early in the system like the ignition switch. The nuetral switch/vim and the interlock is between it, until the 12v goes to the starter relay.

This is why I entered the rear modular box area. From the book it says the starter relay is under the air filter assembly. If I can activate the 12v lead coming from the interlock and the starter activates then I at least know it's in between the push start button and the rear starter relay.

If it is the hatches, I've connected those two wires to close the circuit and left them opened, no change. There isn't much else to do with them, but clearly they served a purpose. I looked on Transpec's page and they do indicate the wires would be for a buzzer, but connecting them should act as a closed microswitch.

I side with the obvious case that, the bus ran perfectly fine until the sign, and two roof hatches were removed, along with the seats. All simple systems though, with not much to really troubleshoot.

I'll figure it out. I've found some good diagrams via searching this forum and that is enough for me to move forward. I hadn't located those when I started the thread.

Thanks for your comment.

Try grounding the negative wire to the hatch.

[jctrembly]

Have you tried to bypass everything and either supply power to the starter solenoid or the relay/solenoid that powers it? From your last post Sounds like your moving in that direction.

In a freight shaker I drove with a 60 series I had a firewall solenoid that was shaky, it got to the point to where I kept a jumper wire near the door so I could quickly pop the hook and jumper it and start the truck. Oddly enough, the boss wanted the starter replaced before they would replace the solenoid. New solenoid fixed it.

Besure your ignition switch is on and If jumping the starter at some point allows your cat to purr, then you will have a better idea on where to look.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by jctrembly

Have you tried to bypass everything and either supply power to the starter solenoid or the relay/solenoid that powers it? From your last post Sounds like your moving in that direction.

In a freight shaker I drove with a 60 series I had a firewall solenoid that was shaky, it got to the point to where I kept a jumper wire near the door so I could quickly pop the hook and jumper it and start the truck. Oddly enough, the boss wanted the starter replaced before they would replace the solenoid. New solenoid fixed it.

Besure your ignition switch is on and If jumping the starter at some point allows your cat to purr, then you will have a better idea on where to look.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

This is what I'm doing next. I put in a post a bit back, that I accessed the rear modular electrical box. It has the main power distribution points, the starter relay, etc. So, I can better isolate the starting circuit back there.

I doubt the starter is the issue, but of course, directly stimulating it takes it out of the scenario, so that's always good. I'll get more to it today, later on.

[RC000E]

Originally Posted by turf

don't rule out the really simple stuff.

I never do. I've learned that lesson 100 times early in life. In addition, it seems clear that it ran when complete and now minus a few things it doesn't. Seems obvious it has to do with those issues, or batteries from sitting for 2 months. THis is why I started at the batteries before I posted this thread. Why I made certain they were charged, and even on a charger. That's kindergarten.

Originally Posted by turf

have you figured out what a child counter is? it is the only interlock not mentioned by anyone yet. you need to confirm if you have one or not.

1999 Thomas, says that right at the beginning, though you've stated I never put that. It doesn't have the child counter

Originally Posted by turf

and voltage drops across the wires are helpful. you never get 12v through out the vehicle. if you were testing with your fluke, you'd know the voltage up front is less than the voltage by the batteries.

11.97 up front...normal...

And there is no "IF" I was testing with my fluke, that's ALL I test with ALWAYS. I don't go around a vehicle putting my tongue to things and using lightbulbs with two wires.

Originally Posted by turf

how many and what size are your starting batteries?

Two batteries in a rear side compartment. This was bought from an active fleet. The batteries aren't swollen, aren't corroded and are seated properly, filling the space allowed. This bus was in revenue generating, active use when I bought it. It has maintenance schedules and stickers throughout it. I don't know the battery size offhand, but they started the bus confidently when I drove it across the country from purchase, then subsequently for weeks after ownership. It sat for over a month when I first got it, outside my warehouse and fired up immediately when I went to it.

Originally Posted by turf

did you have the key on while removing wires?

Obviously not....

When I stored the bus inside, I disconnected the battery negative for fire reasons, as well as to eliminate any drain if possible. During this phase I removed the hatches, signage, seats, etc.

Originally Posted by turf

when was the last time you heard the starter turn over?did you try it in between interlock removal?

When I pulled it in just prior to removing the signage/seats three months ago.

Originally Posted by turf

i'm still sticking with low volts as your problem. post a pic of you charging those batteries for a day with that 200A charger.

did you ever say what year your bus is? is this an electronic motor or a mechanical one? did i see a data cable in your fuse box? maybe its time to check out a code reader?

I'm not going to post a pic of "proof" that it's charged. It is, and what purpose would it serve for me to lie about a battery charger...lol. I have a full shop full of tools...hydraulic tubing benders, TIG, MIG, fabrication tables, corner balancing scales, alignment equipment...yes, I have a battery charger, with wheels and all!

It seems you feel batteries have static voltages in mid 13's to low 14's. You go put your meter on a battery in a non running vehicle and show me that it has a static voltage of 13.5-14.2. A typical 6 cell battery has 6 2.1v cells in it, max charge would be 12.6v static. Running vehicle has alternator output which boosts the charge voltage to 13.5v+. You're calling me "green" but quoting improper 12v automotive system voltages to begin with, then insisting it's a voltage problem.

In the manual the only indicator that the bus won't kick the starter is via the ABS module which creates an interrupt if system voltage is below 11. With the power the batteries have, ESPECIALLY on a plug in charger in start mode, it'd at least kick the starter solenoid and click in the rear or do something. It does nothing.

You likely scanned what i wrote earlier about clicks in the rear, but this bus under normal conditions does a series of clicks, 4 in sequence when you put the key in the on position, which it does in 2 cycles. The clicks move progressively toward the rear of the bus and are underneath, likely solenoids. Hearing them all click is normal and was one of the first things I noticed when I got the bus.

If someone here has a Thomas of this year, I'm sure they could concur their bus does the same.

[DoubleO7]

What if when you connected and reconnected the hatch wires, a fuse blew?
Not knowing if they are used to close the circuit or keep it open during normal operations.

[turf]

Originally Posted by superdave

ok, when I screwed my safety lock crap up I could still start my bus from the engine compartment so I m o its not the safety system. my bus is two years older tho. good luck that's all I got. if you take some close ups of the electric panel I might be able to spot the wires they installed the lock on, its one less thing to worry about. good luck

Pretty cool, i learned how to quote people. skim this one once more!

and if your fluke is reading 11 something, the batter is dead. sorry i misspoke, i was a volt over. i smoke weed, whats your excuse?

what does the transmission indicator say when you try to start the bus?
what noise do you hear when in the start position? click or no, just silence?
more and more it looks like a battery issue

and please share your sema story

good luck!

[turf]

batterys fail!

used batteries that sit for a few months are pretty darn suspect. old batteries fail more! batteries also take time to charge. 200 A is a big charger but if it was for a few minutes, its not enough. you should set your charger on low and trickle charge the battery for a few days.

i've seen battery posts glazed where you can charge it and no charge is happening. i've seen start cables so corroded that they fall off. i've seen starter cables corroded in the middle under sheathing. they look fine but dont pass enough current for a starter.

you are overlooking some very possible causes of your trouble because you are offended by me.

my bus has 7 different 12v batteries, power 3 different 12v systems all monitored by 2 seperate battery monitors. 12.0 volt is the number i know when i see i have to put a charger on to protect which ever system is low. i see the 13.5 an 14.5 under charging conditions too.

[cowlitzcoach]

I know that I am coming into this discussion in the middle so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

You may want to disconnect your batteries to make everything go dead. While the battery cables are disconnected is a good time to clean everything up.

There may be a circuit breaker somewhere in the system that has tripped. When you disconnect everything it may allow it to reset when you connect everything back up again.

I would echo what has been said above about hooking everything back up again and eliminating each switch one at a time.

I would think a buzzer you are hearing has more to do with the low air rather than something that is not closed.

On a bus of your vintage there are not a lot of interlocks involved. Cycling the gear shift is always my first choice. It is easy, especially if it is a manual rather than electronic shift control, to knock the gear shift out of neutral. The pointer may be in the "N" position but it doesn't necessarily mean it is in neutral.

If I understand you correctly, you are airing the bus up so you can move it. I assume you are moving it because where it is parked you can't open the rear engine compartment to access the rear start control. Determining whether it will start at the back or not is a good idea.

From that point, jumping the starter solenoid is another good place to start.

I am sure you are most likely fed up to here with trying to discover where the juice has been interrupted. It can be a very frustrating and aggravating search. And it usually results in discovering something simple that you wonder why you didn't think of it at the start.

Good luck and keep us posted as to what you discover.

[superdave]

One more thing I noticed on my interlock. one of the wires had to be grounded and others couldn't be grounded. Cant remember Witch went where.You have 2 wires at the hatches.TTry grounding The one. That has no power .

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by superdave

One more thing I noticed on my interlock. one of the wires had to be grounded and others couldn't be grounded. Cant remember Witch went where.You have 2 wires at the hatches.TTry grounding The one. That has no power .

I already suggested that.
Maybe it went unnoticed in the furor.