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Old 04-24-2017, 11:41 AM   #41
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Insulation

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Originally Posted by meabus View Post
very good post, I am sorry what happens because it looks like you spend more time with writing than you spend foaming, thanks for your heads up

Ended up going with Tiger Foam to finish the job Foam-It-Garbage couldn't. It expanded more, and hardens harder. Great product. We wrote a blog post about it too. ;)


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Old 04-24-2017, 11:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
jacks, stands, and wood under the frame, man. once the rib extensions were in it was good to go.
its all in my thread.

Ah, ok. I was thinking inside the bus. I shall go check your threat then. Currently, I'm wasting a log of time looking at vapor barriers when I should be looking at rust treatment and painting. MD requires non-yellow buses for a real registration. I got a temp by just saying it isn't yellow. But the safety inspection might catch that.
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Old 04-25-2017, 04:14 PM   #43
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I got a temp by just saying it isn't yellow. But the safety inspection might catch that.
Do ya think?
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:26 PM   #44
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Do ya think?
Since the inspection fee is $185, I don't think slipping the guy a $20 is going to work.
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:28 PM   #45
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You can always cross your fingers and hope for someone with tritanopia (yellow looks violet)
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Old 04-25-2017, 09:34 PM   #46
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Even my colorblindedness is that bad.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:09 PM   #47
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Finally got a response from a local spray foam guy. We sent emails out to all the local people we could find and explained exactly what we needed, along with our willingness to travel to site.

No one answered.

Until today.

$1500-$2000 estimate. That was for 200 bf! Crazy...

We should all be thinking about starting spray foam businesses. Better yet, we'll start one with a "nationwide network of agents".
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:09 AM   #48
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At those prices I'd even foam someone's bus with a kit.
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Old 04-28-2017, 05:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by PigPen View Post
Finally got a response from a local spray foam guy. We sent emails out to all the local people we could find and explained exactly what we needed, along with our willingness to travel to site.

No one answered.

Until today.

$1500-$2000 estimate. That was for 200 bf! Crazy...

We should all be thinking about starting spray foam businesses. Better yet, we'll start one with a "nationwide network of agents".
There was a suggestion in the BCI group on Facebook to talk to a trailer repair shop to jump in when they have a reefer in for repairs. They're apparently spray foamed as well, and it might help with the cost.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:56 PM   #50
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Benefits include:

1) the highest R-value per inch of any commercial insulation product

2) no possibility of interior rust from condensation, as 2" of closed cell foam is a complete vapor barrier

3) added structural strength, to the tune of 30 psi adhesive strength and 30 psi compressive strength

4) good noise reduction, particularly low frequency noises, and elimination of sheet metal body panel resonances when driving

5) cured foam is monolithic (cures into one big piece) meaning no air gaps for air infiltration. This has as much or more to do with energy efficiency and comfort as the R-value of the insulation.
Honestly, you sold me on the spray foam insulation there, BUT, I have a question for all. Has anyone combined insulation types? Like, I have been researching insulation and R values and costs and whatnot and EVERY TIME I think I've decided on my insulation, and double check (just in case) I loose myself and end up back at the beginning, feeling more knowledgeable but less able to decide.

I was considering spray foam, but I was also considering denim insulation, rock wool, and rigid foam boards. Then I saw this video:

And lost my damn mind. THIS GUY is doing what I thought of doing way back at the very beginning, but somehow talked myself out of. Now I'm back here to set the record straight. Has anyone else combined insulation to create a better R value???

I was honestly considering getting a DIY foam kit, giving the interior guts of the bus enough of a layer to create a vapor barrier and fill in the gaps, then adding denim or rock wool insulation (I found some rock wool insulation on Home Depot that is fireproof and has R value of FRIGGIN 30!) Then adding on the walls, floors, and ceiling.

Tell me some good news people, my creativity is about to explode on this!
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:57 PM   #51
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Also, one more question: is there any other way to create a GOOD vapor barrier besides spray foam? I love this forum...
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:32 AM   #52
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Don't think of this process as changing your mind. It's more like chasing your tail.

We all talk about insulation trying to decide how much is too much and what kind works best. The value of insulation varies depending on where each of us lives, so there isn't a solid answer that fits everyone. Most of us feel the foam seals quite well. Opinions vary because conditions vary. Some have insulation to more effectively use air conditioning, while us northerners are more concerned with retaining heat. So, the answer is "It depends." It depends on what you're going to use your bus for and where you expect to be during the winters.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:10 AM   #53
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Yes, I somehow forgot that LOL

I have no idea where I'll end up, but I do kind of plan on starting in Minnesota, and their winters are very cold. So retaining heat might be more important.

And you're right, I'm just chasing my tail, enjoying the planning stage. Working on a budget right now: I have a classic car up for sale and whatever cash I can get out of it is my conversion money. I'm on a tight budget but I've read people have done it under 10K. Plumbing, electricity, insulation, and the bus itself are my priorities. All the rest can fill in the blanks.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:15 AM   #54
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I like what he did there too in the video but I wouldn't use great stuff...
Loctite has a spray foam now and it's closed cell which is important. You can really see and feel the difference when looking at the samples in the store (Home Depot) They say 4x more density and I believe it!
I'll be using the spray-in insulation kit plus using a couple of cans of Loctite to hit here and there where I might have gotten sloppy.....also in places where i can dull out engine noise.
added note:
PL has a Foamboard Adhesive for your 2" foamboard on the walls

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Old 05-11-2017, 09:51 AM   #55
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Opinions vary because conditions vary. Some have insulation to more effectively use air conditioning, while us northerners are more concerned with retaining heat. ...and where you expect to be during the winters.
I don't believe this is true. There may be some quacky lab science that says it's harder to heat than cool using a titanium-tungsten alloy but I'm throwing the B.S. flag.

In practice, insulation is insulation. It works EXACTLY the same for heating as it does for keeping things cool. There's no such thing as a cooling R value and a Heating R value. Take the MN bus and spend the summer in Phoenix where it's 122 in the shade. You are going to survive it better than the FL bus with 1/2" of batting insulation.

I think it comes down to YOU. You hate being cold but can take the heat just fine so you don't insulate your FL bus much. Or you can't take either and you build a MN bus with 6" thick walls, ceiling, and floor. If you're chasing seasons then it doesn't really matter much.

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I'll be using the spray-in insulation kit ...
You guys doing the DIY stuff, where are you getting your DIY stuff from? Is it the big box stores like H.D. and Lowes or the industrial rental places?
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:12 AM   #56
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I don't believe this is true. There may be some quacky lab science that says it's harder to heat than cool using a titanium-tungsten alloy but I'm throwing the B.S. flag.

In practice, insulation is insulation. It works EXACTLY the same for heating as it does for keeping things cool. There's no such thing as a cooling R value and a Heating R value. Take the MN bus and spend the summer in Phoenix where it's 122 in the shade. You are going to survive it better than the FL bus with 1/2" of batting insulation.

I think it comes down to YOU. You hate being cold but can take the heat just fine so you don't insulate your FL bus much. Or you can't take either and you build a MN bus with 6" thick walls, ceiling, and floor. If you're chasing seasons then it doesn't really matter much.

While I agree with you that insulation is insulation, I do think there's a difference in the needs for insulation in hot and cold climates. Typically, when insulating for a hot climate, you're not trying to achieve a temperature difference of much more than 30 degrees. Maybe 40 if it's extreme. Cold climates, you're regularly trying to achieve a temperature difference of 60 degrees. In extreme cases maybe as much as 80 or 90.

There's no need for insulation in a warm climate bus to achieve an 80 degree temperature differential unless you're planning to hang meat in it.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:21 AM   #57
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While I agree with you that insulation is insulation, I do think there's a difference in the needs for insulation in hot and cold climates. Typically, when insulating for a hot climate, you're not trying to achieve a temperature difference of much more than 30 degrees. Maybe 40 if it's extreme. Cold climates, you're regularly trying to achieve a temperature difference of 60 degrees. In extreme cases maybe as much as 80 or 90.

There's no need for insulation in a warm climate bus to achieve an 80 degree temperature differential unless you're planning to hang meat in it.
That's completely true. For example, homes in the south (like in my home state of Florida) have 6" exterior walls, while homes in the north have 8" exterior walls to pack in more insulation.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Brewerbob View Post
In practice, insulation is insulation. It works EXACTLY the same for heating as it does for keeping things cool. There's no such thing as a cooling R value and a Heating R value. Take the MN bus and spend the summer in Phoenix where it's 122 in the shade. You are going to survive it better than the FL bus with 1/2" of batting insulation.
Kind of. It turns out that the R value of many insulations actually does change with temperature. Fiberglass batt, EPS, and XPS all improve in colder weather, but polyiso actually gets worse (see energyvanguard.com).

A person could pick a type of insulation to optimize for installation and energy costs based on the expected temperatures where it'll serve, and that would certainly make sense to do for an industrial scale facility like a frozen foods warehouse. For something the scale of our buses other factors like ease of installation weigh much more heavily. We have much more latitude to just install a little thicker if we're worried about having it underperform in the climate we'll be in.

I definitely agree with the spirit of your post: in a bus we'll be unlikely to really notice the difference in R value vs temperature, and more insulation is better.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Rameses View Post
While I agree with you that insulation is insulation, I do think there's a difference in the needs for insulation in hot and cold climates. Typically, when insulating for a hot climate, you're not trying to achieve a temperature difference of much more than 30 degrees. Maybe 40 if it's extreme. Cold climates, you're regularly trying to achieve a temperature difference of 60 degrees. In extreme cases maybe as much as 80 or 90.

There's no need for insulation in a warm climate bus to achieve an 80 degree temperature differential unless you're planning to hang meat in it.
That I'll buy but if you're after a 30 differential, it's going to cost you 3" of the perfect insulation. That will also equate to an R value of R-30 (numbers randomly pulled out of my arse, fill in the blanks with real numbers). Doesn't matter if you're trying to gain or lose that 30. Your 80 differential will cost you 16" and R-50. I'm guessing the numbers are NOT linear but the R values might be???; I've never looked it up.

If you're putting me in the 122, I'm going to need 50 differential. With a blanket, that same 50 differential will get me thru a night of -35F. At that temp, I'm going to be more worried about the engine starting, my water lines, and where the gf is. She doesn't do cold well. That's where the personal preference comes in.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:48 AM   #60
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That's completely true. For example, homes in the south (like in my home state of Florida) have 6" exterior walls, while homes in the north have 8" exterior walls to pack in more insulation.
The houses I've owned in FL, SC, and MD all had/have 2x4 walls.
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