Insulation

[05FrieghtlinerThomas]

I remain more concerned about the reduction in structural integrity and strength of a bus frame stripped of all it's interior panels and closely spaced screws or rivets. look at bridge beam connections - do you see the number and spacing of rivets? they are like that b/c they, in numbers and their extremely close spacing, develop joint strength - much as bus manufacturers have designed in their panels. removing them all and returning with far less strong connections, if at all, has to result in a far less strong frame going down the road, twisting and flexing as it traverses uneven roadways, off road, etc.

[Sasquatters]

I heard great things about Foam It Green. My buddy and I each bought a kit. His was $300 or so and ours was $900. Foam It Green is complete crap. One of the worst products I have bought in a long time. AGAIN, DO NOT BUY FOAM IT GREEN. Aside from the product being junk, their customer service is also horrible. My buddy bought a kit from Lowes yesterday that was $300. It expanded more which means it covered more. Much nicer stuff.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by 05FrieghtlinerThomas

I remain more concerned about the reduction in structural integrity and strength of a bus frame stripped of all it's interior panels and closely spaced screws or rivets. look at bridge beam connections - do you see the number and spacing of rivets? they are like that b/c they, in numbers and their extremely close spacing, develop joint strength - much as bus manufacturers have designed in their panels. removing them all and returning with far less strong connections, if at all, has to result in a far less strong frame going down the road, twisting and flexing as it traverses uneven roadways, off road, etc.

Maybe if you're that concerned you would be happier with a factory built rig.
THe seats are every bit as structural as the (often perforated) skin inside.
If they have any structural purpose, its so minuscule and pointless that its laughable. I just had my roof cut off, held only be four smallish pieces of all-thread. You really wouldn't believe how incredibly strong it is. Kept its shape pretty much perfectly. That was with no skins inside. INCREDIBLY rigid. I've driven this bus over pretty rugged terrain with no interior skins. It totally does NOT "twist" or anything like you're imagining.
These are WAY over-built due to the gov't being liable for everyone's kids, and we know how litigious a good number of those parents are...

But if you ever look at how an Rv is put together and consider you aren't actually hauling 80 kids around in the bus, then why leave it like a tin can if you're actually gona LIVE in it?

[BlueBirdman]

I have worked extensively with closed cell spray foam insulation. It is THE BEST way to insulate any bus, rv or tiny house!

Specifically, what you want is two part 2 lb. closed cell pray foam.

Application is measured by the board foot, which measures 12" x 12" x 1" thick. At a minimum, you should apply 3" thickness to the roof and the floor (both from underneath!) and at least 2" thickness to the walls. (If you will be using it in the winter, I'd add 1" depth everywhere!)

Benefits include:

1) the highest R-value per inch of any commercial insulation product

2) no possibility of interior rust from condensation, as 2" of closed cell foam is a complete vapor barrier

3) added structural strength, to the tune of 30 psi adhesive strength and 30 psi compressive strength

4) good noise reduction, particularly low frequency noises, and elimination of sheet metal body panel resonances when driving

5) cured foam is monolithic (cures into one big piece) meaning no air gaps for air infiltration. This has as much or more to do with energy efficiency and comfort as the R-value of the insulation.

I have seen the results from foam it green kits and wouldn't use the stuff. I have used the touch n seal kits to patch things, and they are acceptable. However, the best and usually cheapest method is to prep and mask yourself, then have a pro spray it for you. Then, trim and clean up yourself.

Cost for materials and labor should be at or under $1.00 per board foot, which is competitive with the touch n seal kits on ebay. Find a local pro with good references and you can forget all the BS about not getting it mixed correctly. (It's so rare that I've only heard stories - never seen it in person. I spent nearly 2 years as a tech rep/sales rep for spray foam application equipment, so that's saying something!)

Understand that in a 35' skoolie the roof alone will need nearly 840 board feet to achieve 3" depth. The floor will double that. I'd plan on putting 2500+ board feet of foam into a bus - that's four plus kits and a hell of a lot of work if you do it yourself.

There's another really good reason to have someone else shoot it: the fumes generated during application. They're dangerous as hell, and when applying foam inside an enclosed area like a bus, no filter mask will do. You need supplied air, pumped from well upwind of where the spraying is going on.

Fortunately, the foam cures quickly. The curing process is pretty much over in an hour. Obviously, once the chemical reaction has ended, no further gases are emitted. (There goes another myth...!) At that point, you can go in and start trimming and cleaning with nothing more than a particulate mask, which is for the little crumbs of foam that will be floating about as you trim and shave.

As with any kind of construction, the things that produce a truly high quality result are often unseen. I would happily spend the price of my bus on spray foam insulation. There is NOTHING else you can do to your conversion that will produce so much comfort AND do so much to reduce the cost and effort involved in heating and cooling.

[PNW_Steve]

[QUOTE=BlueBirdman;187877. However, the best and usually cheapest method is to prep and mask yourself, then have a pro spray it for you. Then, trim and clean up yourself.

Cost for materials and labor should be at or under $1.00 per board foot, which is competitive with the touch n seal kits on ebay. Find a local pro with good references and you can forget all the BS about not getting it mixed correctly. (It's so rare that I've only heard stories - never seen it in person. I spent nearly 2 years as a tech rep/sales rep for spray foam application equipment, so that's saying something!)
[/QUOTE]

That was my initial thought. I hired a company to spray my last bus and thought I would do the same again.

I started calling insulation companies that offer foam. After calling a dozen or so I found (on Yelp if I recall) a site that let me search for foam installers in my area and send a quote request to the ones you select.

I sent a quote request to every foam installer in the state that was listed. Every response I received was either "we are too busy" or "we do do vehicles".

If you know anyone in Washington that will spray our buses I would sure appreciate it.

Thanks for the great info. I can attest to how much more comfortable & quiet things get after foaming a bus.

[05FrieghtlinerThomas]

I am actually sold on the spray foam, performed by a professional applicator after as you and many others suggested, after I prepare the cavities and clean metal skins thoroughly.

Got a quote this AM from a professional applicator with lots of experience, who by the way disagreed with nothing on skoolie.net on the subject - which was very affirming - and he quoted me install cost estimate at $2/board foot/inch - so if I go 1 1/2" deep it'll be $3/sf, or 2" deep, $4/sf, etc.

regarding a separate thread on the structural integrity issue of removing sheets, for what it's worth note the manufacturer's answer to my question. And, yes, I get the answer is the book answer but it's enough to motivate me to make every attempt to place the same metal ceiling back up after foaming, if at all possible.

///

from Thomas!! - ‘yes, to meet federal spec the fasteners are needed for Structural for School bus application”


Thomas Built Buses, Inc.
Technical Service


1408 Courtesy Road, High Point, NC 27260

ThomasBus.com

/thomasbuiltbuses


From: Bob Bauer

Subject: Re: 2005 Freightliner Thomas School Bus purchase by Bob Bauer, Middleburg, VA

I have another question for you. I am struggling with some advice I am getting from many who have converted school buses.

Many pull the interior steel ceiling sheets and side wall sheets and either spray foam insulation or just use foam boards to insulate walls, to develop thermal breaks, and to seal off paths for moisture.

I understand why they do that but I'm guessing Thomas has all those screws spaced so close together on ceiling and low wall to contribute to the structural integrity and strength of the bus.

What is your opinion on this?
///

everyone has their own level of risk they are comfortable with - reusing the skin saves $$, reattaches the ceiling as close to original, and doesn't look bad at all painted.

thank you everyone for your advice and counsel, it is very much appreciated. rock on skoolie.net!!

[05FrieghtlinerThomas]

last thing I want is a factory rig, definitely very happy with the skoolie idea. very good point about the seats, because mine came to me without them I was not thinking about that but totally agree.

[BlueBirdman]

Tonight I talked with the applicator I've used for my jobs. He's a full service insulation contractor, and right now he's so busy he wouldn't want to take in a skoolie job for someone he didn't know.

The main problem is crew burnout. Crews are paid piece rate, and they're already working 6 10's a week. You can hire just about anyone to hang batts or blow, but foam crews are specialized. Then, there's the equipment cost, which is in the tens of thousands per rig. Right now he could keep another two foam crews busy, but he won't risk six figures of capital on a construction market that's likely running out of steam as you read this.

He also observed that RV conversions are cramped, making for harder work than most jobs. He'd not trust a layman to mask adequately, either. (You could do as much as possible, but he'd have to bring it us to snuff before he started spraying.) Bottom line is he'd bid in the neighborhood of $1.50/bd. ft. for the work if he had time to do it. Right now, it's not in the cards.

This got me thinking again about the possibility of setting up my own rig in a trailer that could be towed behind my bus. We're talking about a 20-30 kw generator, a serious compressor, a refrigerated air dryer and the foam rig - a lot of money!

I'd probably stick around Colorado for a few weeks at a time, and I'd probably go to Quartzsite, AZ every January. Other than that (if you'd cover fuel costs) I could come to you! (Provided, that is, that you aren't in some crime ridden inner city or a gun control paradise like Chicago!!)

I've thought about this before, but it's a lot of money and I'm not sure I want to work hard enough to make the investment worthwhile!

So, an informal poll: do you think there's a market? Who here would hire me? Would you come to Colorado or Arizona, or would you want me to come to you?

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by BlueBirdman

So, an informal poll: do you think there's a market? Who here would hire me? Would you come to Colorado or Arizona, or would you want me to come to you?

I have two buses that will be ready for insulation in the next 90 days and am considering buying a 3rd.

I am about an hour N.N.E. of Seattle but will travel within reason.

If someone were to pick a central spot and set up I think many of us would travel a bit to get foamed....

[family wagon]

Holy cow that's a lot of electrical power. I assume it must be primarily driving the air compressor and dryer -- the rig itself isn't eating all that power, is it?

Makes me wonder what the market is like here in the Salt Lake City area. I haven't made any calls to installers yet, preferring to wait until my roof raise is complete so I can actually show them the real job. I hadn't, but may need to, consider traveling to an installer who's willing to do the work.

[Sasquatters]

For those looking for a more detailed experience about Foam It Green...

http://sasquatters.com/foam-it-mean/


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[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by T-Bolt

Professional foam will be much better and it can be done cheaper than people think. If you do all the prep work and drive it to a job site that they are already at they will do it cheap. Then you do all the trimming and cleanup. Call around and you might get a deal.

Can and should the floor be sprayed as well?

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

That was with no skins inside. INCREDIBLY rigid. I've driven this bus over pretty rugged terrain with no interior skins. It totally does NOT "twist" or anything like you're imagining.

Off-topic but once you cut the roof off, did you have to re-level the bus itself? Did the roof twiest or sag anywhere? If so, did you just weld one corner and then ajust the rest? How do you adjust the level of the roof? I have a 4 foot leve but that won't span the bus. What are you using for a reference point?

I will certainly check leveling but just want to know what I need to look out for.

[meabus]

Originally Posted by superdave

i got the foam kit off ebay, just ordered another. the foam company's around here promised me the world but once i got to the parking lot it was a hole new world. there all crooks. ive asked on this forum for prices and never heard from anyone. on the facebook page the cheapest ive seen is 2400.00. my 2 kits cost less than 1200 and its easy, workes great and the most fun i had in a while. i took my time and got every nook and cranny.
Touch 'N Seal 600BF Spray Foam Insulation Kit U2 600 Closed Cell Free SHIP | eBay

damn you got a nice bus, your foam advice I will keep on my list..

[meabus]

Originally Posted by Sasquatters

For those looking for a more detailed experience about Foam It Green...

Foam-It-Mean | Sasquatters


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very good post, I am sorry what happens because it looks like you spend more time with writing than you spend foaming, thanks for your heads up

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

Off-topic but once you cut the roof off, did you have to re-level the bus itself? Did the roof twiest or sag anywhere? If so, did you just weld one corner and then ajust the rest? How do you adjust the level of the roof? I have a 4 foot leve but that won't span the bus. What are you using for a reference point?

I will certainly check leveling but just want to know what I need to look out for.

No sagging or twisting. We cut it, raised it, checked every single gap, then buttoned everything back up. We used all thread to support and adjust.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

No sagging or twisting. We cut it, raised it, checked every single gap, then buttoned everything back up. We used all thread to support and adjust.

I think Transcendence (or maybe it was someone else) had to retweak the level. Good to know.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

I think Transcendence (or maybe it was someone else) had to retweak the level. Good to know.

I braced more than he did.
Plus mines amtran his is BB.

[Brewerbob]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I braced more than he did.
Plus mines amtran his is BB.

You braced what where using ...?

Mine is BB.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Brewerbob

You braced what where using ...?

Mine is BB.

jacks, stands, and wood under the frame, man. once the rib extensions were in it was good to go.
its all in my thread.