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05-11-2017, 11:07 AM
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#61
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
I don't believe this is true. There may be some quacky lab science that says it's harder to heat than cool using a titanium-tungsten alloy but I'm throwing the B.S. flag.
In practice, insulation is insulation. It works EXACTLY the same for heating as it does for keeping things cool. There's no such thing as a cooling R value and a Heating R value. Take the MN bus and spend the summer in Phoenix where it's 122° in the shade. You are going to survive it better than the FL bus with 1/2" of batting insulation.
I think it comes down to YOU. You hate being cold but can take the heat just fine so you don't insulate your FL bus much. Or you can't take either and you build a MN bus with 6" thick walls, ceiling, and floor. If you're chasing seasons then it doesn't really matter much.
You guys doing the DIY stuff, where are you getting your DIY stuff from? Is it the big box stores like H.D. and Lowes or the industrial rental places?
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Ebay, Amazon, there are a ton of diy kits available.
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05-11-2017, 11:52 AM
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#62
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB
Ebay, Amazon, there are a ton of diy kits available.
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I guess it's about time to start researching it a little more serious. What do I need to know just to google apple to apples? All I know is expanding and closed cell. There has to be different types tho. Different in that yours cut with a dirty look and Robin's needed a chainsaw.
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05-11-2017, 12:08 PM
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#63
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,764
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
I guess it's about time to start researching it a little more serious. What do I need to know just to google apple to apples? All I know is expanding and closed cell. There has to be different types tho. Different in that yours cut with a dirty look and Robin's needed a chainsaw.
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I dont' have any yet, but the stuff I've seen in person was easy to cut.
Here's what came up when I put "diy foam insulation" into ebay-
diy spray foam insulation | eBay
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05-11-2017, 12:30 PM
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#64
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB
I dont' have any yet, but the stuff I've seen in person was easy to cut.
Here's what came up when I put "diy foam insulation" into ebay-
diy spray foam insulation | eBay
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FYI, ... the $4200 quote was for 2lb closed cell, 40'x7.5'x7' (assuming a roof raise) and a finish depth of 3 1/2".
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05-11-2017, 12:38 PM
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#65
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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05-11-2017, 12:56 PM
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#66
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Um, have any of you kids done the math on this stuff? Please tell me I'm doing something wrong and/or reading these kits wrong. Using the calc below, I came up with 4,060 board feet of foam needed. The "little" kits are 80 something cents a foot. The ones on the skids are 40 cents a foot but are $2,000+ EACH.
Board Foot Calculator
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05-11-2017, 01:09 PM
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#67
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
You guys doing the DIY stuff, where are you getting your DIY stuff from? Is it the big box stores like H.D. and Lowes or the industrial rental places?
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No big box stores although I did check them out.
I'm going with Foam-it-Green
www.sprayfoamkit.com
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05-11-2017, 01:20 PM
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#68
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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I'm coming up with 733 board feet.
I want to put it 2" thick for an r14 value
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05-11-2017, 01:27 PM
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#69
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobeamiss
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Total # of Kits:6$3762.00
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05-11-2017, 01:35 PM
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#70
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
Total # of Kits:6$3762.00
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Foam-it-green says I'll need 2kits @ $627 each. I like that better.
I too believe that insulation is insulation whether you're keeping out the cold or keeping out the heat.
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05-11-2017, 01:55 PM
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#71
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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If I go to 3" to raise the R value to 21, it'll cost me $1,551.94. still that's not an outrageous amount.
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05-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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#72
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobeamiss
I'm coming up with 733 board feet.
I want to put it 2" thick for an r14 value
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A 65 pax bus isn't 40 feet. I don't know what it is. I'm over estimating on purpose but still.
I did screw up something but not by as much as I was hoping.
Wall
40' x 7' = 280
Wall
40 x 7 = 280
Ceiling
40 x 7 1/2 = 300
Floor
40 x 7 1/2 = 300
Rear
7 1/2 x 7 = 52.5
Front
7 1/2 x 7 = 52.5
Total = 1205 sq ft $3791.99
Now if we use closer to real measurements, the driver's area would be nice but not required so the new length is 35'. Also I was thinking of making blocks for the windshield so axe that and use foam board. That leaves only a rear wall.
35 x 7 x 2 walls = 490
35 x 7.5 x 2 ceiling/floor = 525
7 x 7.5 rear = 52.5
Total = 1067.5 sq ft @ 3" $3464.00
3202.5 board feet
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05-11-2017, 02:10 PM
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#73
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobeamiss
I'm coming up with 733 board feet.
I want to put it 2" thick for an r14 value
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No fricking way. At 2" thick, that's 366 sq ft. Are you only spraying the floor or ceiling?
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05-11-2017, 02:15 PM
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#74
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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The interior of my 65pas is 26.5feet. I'm not including the driver area or the floors. I'll be using foam board.
I'm also not closing off any windows (at least I don't think I am at this point) so my walls will be 2.66 feet tall.
I added a foot to the 7.5 for the ceiling to allow for the curve, so that's now 8.5
So here we go...
Wall
26.5 x 2.66 = 70.49
Wall
26.5 x 2.66 = 70.49
Ceiling
26.5 x 8.5 = 225.25
Total square ft 366.23 rounded up to 370 sqft ....3"thick.... And the calculator says $1551.94.
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05-11-2017, 02:23 PM
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#75
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 3,738
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: Blue Bird TC RE 3904, Flat Nose, 40', 277" wh base
Engine: 8.3L Cummins ISC 260hp, MT643, 4.44 rear
Rated Cap: 84 pax or 1 RV; 33,000lbs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobeamiss
The interior of my 65pas is 26.5feet. I'm also not closing off any windows
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Ah, there's a HUGE difference.
Quote:
I'm not including the driver area or the floors. I'll be using foam board.
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Don't take this as insulting but WHY?!!?! My world is black and white. Either I'm boarding the whole thing or springing the money and spraying the whole thing.
Quote:
So here we go...
Wall... Wall... Ceiling
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You aren't doing a rear wall either?
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05-11-2017, 02:56 PM
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#76
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Willamina, Oregon
Posts: 6,409
Coachwork: 97 Bluebird TC1000 5.9
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I'll admit I didn't check the foam kits any further once I found out I could have someone spray my bus for the same price as the cost of the larger 800 sf kit. I'm questioning exactly how much insulation people really need.
I looked up the most expensive foam kit sold at Lowe's ($747.14) and I'm using those figures for comparison.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dow-FROTH-P...-Kit/999972980
This kit yields approximately 650 board ft (54.2-cubic ft). There is supposed to be an R-value of 5.5 per inch of foam. That's not that impressive considering the cost and labor intensive application process.
The impressive part about spray foam is that it covers and seals the metal skin better than anything else you can put in your bus. There are no gaps or cracks (supposedly), like experienced while using rigid insulation.
I'm not impressed with using rockwool insulation any more than the glass batts previously stripped out of this bus. I know the rockwool is a thicker matt, but it looks like a bug and mouse nest to me. It can catch dust, not unlike the glass insulation, which means it can mold like the glass insulation.
I didn't want rigid panels, because they don't fit tight enough to eliminate humid air from coming into contact with the outer skin and ribs of the bus, thereby allowing condensation. The batts slow air flow significantly, but humidity can still get through the batts to contact outer metal surfaces. I wanted to stop all that air flow so the only answer was to use foam. At that time I had been heating with propane so condensation was a major concern. Also as mentioned mice can make a home just about anywhere, so soft rockwool insulation would always be suspect to me.
Originally the foam insulation idea from this forum was to spray in a 1/2" layer throughout the bus, which seals off the outer skin from contact humid interior air. That 1/2" of foam would only produce an R-value of between 2 or 3, which is obviously inadequate. The methodology was to leave an air gap, or thermal break, between the foam insulation and whatever other type of insulation is used on the interior. I used 1/2" styrofoam panels as a thermal break so my interior wood ceiling wasn't in direct contact with the steel rib surfaces.
That's what I thought I was doing when I got my spray foam. When I saw the foam insulation over 4" in depth, way in excess of what it should have been, my heart skipped a couple beats. All this before I found out the foam cut like wood.
So, the point is my spray foam being just in excess of 1 1/2" deep has an R-value of about 16.5. Not an impressive number. I added 1/2" rigid insulation because of its flexibility for the ceiling and walls. I also used these same rigid insulation panels to cover my windows, which worked extremely well even with a low R-value of 1.93.
What I'm confused about is why the rigid insulation with an R-value just under 2 worked when placed against the cold windows during the winter. The panels were warm to the touch on the inside while placed snugly against the windows even during freezing weather. That doesn't make sense to me.
Sorry Bob, I couldn't solve your math problem. This is a "simple math only" day for me. I even looked up how to calculate board feet, and I got nothin. I've been told that a foam kit will put a layer of foam on the walls and ceilings of a 40' bus 1/2" thick. If you want 3" of foam, that's sounding a lot like six kits which puts you back in the $4k range again. For that much money you could afford to drive to Oregon and get the $800 foam job and still save money. I'll buy you lunch and a beer if you choose that route.
Perhaps the combination of several types of insulation is the way to go. Seal the metal surfaces with a thin coat of foam, but use a less expensive insulation to fill in the remainder.
Honestly I'm tempted to use rigid insulation if I build a bus again. The thinner panels would conform to ceiling curves easily and could be layered to whateve depth you want. At $7 per panel, I'd have to use over 100 panels to equal the cost of my spray foam.
I've only insulated a bus one time, so I have no idea which way is best. Carving this 3# foam was miserable, so I'm inclined to go just about any other direction if I insulate a bus again.
I have noticed the meat locker buses with, what appears to be, about 6" of insulation. Mobil butcher shop keeps coming to mind. I don't know how much insulation is too much. It's confusing since reported R-values don't seem consistent with real world experience. Why does a rigid styrofoam 1/2" thick panel with an R-value under 2 stop the cold from the windows? End rant.
__________________
Robin
Nobody's Business
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05-11-2017, 03:30 PM
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#77
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: So Ill
Posts: 267
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freightliner
Engine: Cummins 5.9 Allison AT545
Rated Cap: 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin97396
Perhaps the combination of several types of insulation is the way to go. Seal the metal surfaces with a thin coat of foam, but use a less expensive insulation to fill in the remainder.
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That's what I was thinking, but I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas how to create a vapor barrier without using foam? Is there some kind of paint people paint on that works? I've seen pictures where they paint the naked metal floor after rustoleum and such...
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05-11-2017, 05:06 PM
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#78
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Willamina, Oregon
Posts: 6,409
Coachwork: 97 Bluebird TC1000 5.9
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Some people paint the entire floor, ceiling and walls.
__________________
Robin
Nobody's Business
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05-11-2017, 07:05 PM
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#79
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewerbob
Ah, there's a HUGE difference.
Don't take this as insulting but WHY?!!?! My world is black and white. Either I'm boarding the whole thing or springing the money and spraying the whole thing.
You aren't doing a rear wall either?
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I'm curious as to how many actual feet you have inside from the line at the drivers seat to the back door....
I don't know the length but I have a 10 window bus and when I measured I got 26.5 inside down the aisle to the back door.
Honestly, I got a little intimidated about removing the ceiling panel above the driver's seat and stairwell. It was the only panel that's has perforations...clearly for better air circulation for whatever is up under there. I may get brave and remove it later on but for now it stays until I decide
As far as the back wall goes, I'll have a garage and it'll stop after the first window. So it'll be a nice 2x8 room to store things. I'll also have door access from the inside. But I might have to remove the two back wall panels on each side of the door anyway because I have some body work to do on the outside rear corners. Lots of rust clear through just under my tail lights and removing those panels will allow me to do a better job on it.
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05-11-2017, 07:10 PM
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#80
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: NY
Posts: 774
Year: 2002
Coachwork: International
Engine: dt466
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin97396
Some people paint the entire floor, ceiling and walls.
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I don't understand that. It's a question I've had on my mind for a while and glad it's been brought up.
After treating for rust, I painted the entire interior with Rustoleum metal paint primer. Now I've been wondering if I really need to paint anything before doing my insulation.
And then some people just use regular Rustoleum paint with no primer and call it a day.
confused about the proper method.....
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