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Old 01-07-2011, 10:45 AM   #1
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Insulation-propane and Cold

Well, the predicted forcast is a high of 5 degrees with a wind chill of -35 Don't that make ya feel all squishy inside. Just can't get enthused to go work on th"Bear Den" today. Did do a test on the heat system though.
Insulation-
Floor: 3/4" plywood against metal floor - 3/4" styro -another 3/4" plywood, topped off w/cheap bamboo flooring. floor is 2 1/4" thick
Walls: 1 1/2" styro on factory lower walls and around windows. another 1 1/2" framed walls insulated with 1 1/2" styro, then covered with a thick plactic sheeting and topped off with 1/8" Luan. Walls are 3" thick.
Ceiling: Aside from the shitty factory insulation, the only other stuff applied is spray in foam around the roof vents and 1" styro that was pushed in from the bottom of the roof on the inside. That runs up the ceiling approw. 24" in 6"x24" pieces. Plans for more are just that now. I realize the thermal bridge affects, but that is how it will be for awhile. Plans are to add a little more to the ceiling at a later date. Perhaps a pleated headliner.

SO: I turned the heater on low (approx. 7000 btu) at 9pm and let run all night. I had both roof vents cracked about an inch open. I turned on a 12v fan front and rear on low. (aftermarket fans, not the factory bus ones)
The low that night was 3 degrees with 10 to 15 mph winds. The next morning, after about 12 hours, the inside temp. at ceiling was 66 degrees. At floor it was 54 degrees. I think a wind skirt around the bottom of the bus would really help the cold floor situation. The windows had a small amount of frozen condensation on them as well as the ceiling having some light ice bridges. It is a fairly dry climate in WY, winter and summer. I could see, in a more humid enviroment, the condensation issue might be more problematic using propane heat. I pulled the bottle and had it filled. It took 3 lbs. to fill it. The batteries (running 2-225ah) were at 95%.

I feel I should have enough propane to last 3 weeks in "why the hell am I out here" weather, before a refuel is needed. I would think running everything on low would not be real comfortable, but livable. If I have shore power available then there would not be any real problem with the backup electric heat. Also have the option of running on of the genny's, and have a 40 gal. tank for it.

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Old 01-07-2011, 01:46 PM   #2
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Hope I'm not completely hijacking your thread here...

I don't plan to do much cold weather camping, and I think I will be in campsites that have electricity most of the time so will use electric heat. However, I do want to have a backup system for heat if I find myself boondocking in cold weather.

Since I am using primarily electric, and only using propane as a backup, I don't want to deal with mounting a large propane tank and the associated tubing, etc. I have a small coleman campstove that runs off the small propane cylinders, and I'm thinking of getting a small portable propane heater like this one: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... Fireplaces>Propane%20Heaters&cm_cat=Shopzilla&cm_ven=Aggrega tes

Can anyone think of a reason to avoid these heaters? Do I have to crack a window or something when running it? I really have very little experience with propane, so any input would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:58 PM   #3
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Hey DieselDan, I have the BigBuddy that I used in the bus last winter during construction. It worked great. I would think it would work fine for a back-up. They say, they burn 99% and I have never noticed any real smell, but I would crack a window just to be assured of some fresh air intake. I also have a carbonmonoxide detecter. Good investment. I think lornaschinske (did I spell that right?) uses one in thier bus also, of is thier consession trailer Good luck
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:37 PM   #4
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

We've been using a Big Buddy for a while. Over night is no issue, keep a window cracked a little and thats it.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:53 PM   #5
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papabear
... think lornaschinske (did I spell that right?) uses one in thier bus also, of is thier consession trailer
It's in the concession trailer on a 20lb LP tank. But I have also used it in my house (1 lb disposable bottle) during power outages. No matter what you use to heat with, you need a CO detector, smoke detector and an LP detector (if you use any LP). Some are combination units although I think the LP detector is a stand alone alarm. These are inexpensive and can be bought at any lumberyard/hardware store. I prefer the battery operated ones. Being able to put the shrieking thing outside because it went off while you are cooking is a blessing (I can't help that I like to read while I cook) and you can install one anywhere without worrying about running electric. The First Alert CO/Smoke alarm I have is a bit touchy. David was grilling hamburgers outside and the light breeze blew a little smoke from the grill inside... silly thing went off. It's happened a few times.

If you are planning on using the MR Buddy to heat with often, then you may want to plumb an interior connection (put a shut off valve on the connection) so that you can use a LP gas hose to the heater with. The regulator is built into the heater (you are threading the disposable tank or LP hose into the regulator). That is far cheaper than using the very pricey disposable tanks.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:11 PM   #6
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

you would be surprised what a good skirt does! I got a foam board skirt on my trailer and before that the floors were freezing cold!
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:39 PM   #7
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuff
you would be surprised what a good skirt does!
In my experience... skirts are drafty and makes my tookas cold!
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:28 AM   #8
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

sorry i dont wear skirts but someone on this forum posted a gadjet that filled the 1 lb bottles from a 20 lb bottle anyone seenit? got it?
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:37 AM   #9
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

[quote="timbuk"... a gadjet that filled the 1 lb bottles from a 20 lb bottle anyone seenit? got it?[/quote]

Seen it... dangerous thing. The reason I say dangerous is because I have used the little 1LB disposable tanks. Screw them in once to use on a gas grill (we would take our little gas grill picnicking), cook a couple of burgers, unscrew and the stupid thing leaks out all the fuel.... I hate that, but It has happened more often than not. We tend to use the little 1tanks made for blow torches because they aren't quite as bad... SOMETIMES we can get a second use. Back when we used to tent camp, we used an LP lantern. To travel with, I would often remove the LP bottle from the light. I would drop a little bit of soapy water into the top of the bottle to see if it was leaking every time I removed it. I got so tired of having to put the things back together, we bought a 20LB LP tank and picked up a tall pole that the lantern would screw into the top of. It allowed me to break down the lantern and store it in our "camping box" that we kept all out camping equipment in (at the time, we lived in an efficiency apartment and drove a piece of crap Ford Mustang Hatchback... box was sized to fit in the back of the car and we "stored" the canoe on top of the car).


ANY WAY.......
We use one of these hoses (Coleman from Wal-Mart) for the heater in the food cart and for our gas grill (grill hooks up to a home brewed extend-a-stay)

http://www.walmart.com/ip/COLEMAN-8-...-HOSE/13848690
You can buy the little brass valve like what is on a disposable tank from most places that sell LP or gas grill fitting like ACE hardware (we buy Mr. Heater brand) From the LP tank side, you would need a "Propane Male Throwaway Cylinder Adapter" The ones we buy are pretty sturdy and last for years. You are only going to get 6 or 8 hours on a 1lb disposable tank (and I swear those tanks have less fuel in them than they used to). I don't know what those tanks are running now but I just filled a 20LB BBQ tank for $2.75 gallon. Propane weighs approximately 4.2 pounds per US liquid gallon. I'm pretty sure that the little tanks are terribly high per gallon.
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Old 01-10-2011, 09:38 PM   #10
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Well I got myself a Mr. Heater "Big Buddy" today and fired it up with a couple 1lb propane cylinders. It does crank out the heat! The fan seems a little weak, but I suppose I can just run a small fan behind it. Lorna you make a good arguement for the larger refillable propane tank (in terms of cost of fuel). So I assume with a large tank you would turn off the propane at the tank when not it use? Am I correct that I need to unscrew the 1 lb cylinders when not in use? So if I'm camping for two nights, I would have to unscrew them during the day in between if I'm not using it during the day? I'll probably use the small disposable cylinders for now, and think about adding a 20lb tank later on. Oh, and for those familiar with the "big buddy" heater, do I have to always screw in two bottles (or hoses) when it's running, or can I leave one of the propane receptacles empty and just run off one? The instructions don't really address that.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:54 PM   #11
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

i got a buddy heater it takes only 1 bottle but it can be used with the cheater hose,its cheaper than the little bottles for sure.Dont muck around you need fresh air at all times for these heaters
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:46 PM   #12
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Dan
... Lorna you make a good arguement for the larger refillable propane tank (in terms of cost of fuel). So I assume with a large tank you would turn off the propane at the tank when not it use? Am I correct that I need to unscrew the 1 lb cylinders when not in use? So if I'm camping for two nights, I would have to unscrew them during the day in between if I'm not using it during the day?
I can't tell you about the big 2 tank heaters... Don't remove the disposables until they are empty. They do not always seal closed (crappy needle valve). We do not shut the tank off unless we are moving the food cart. We also operate an LP single burner to heat up the meat and rolls for our hot deli sandwiches. The 20 lb tank should be set out side. The valve on the heater will shut it down. We have run the heater overnight but I have always had a CO/smoke detector in operation with the heater when used in a home setting. And my homes weren't terribly air tight. My RV REALLY isn't airtight plus we keep the roof top vents open slightly even during the winter. So I would run the heater at night if we lost power... otherwise we're liable to freeze to death here. Our electric is included in our lot rent so we run an electric heater with the RV gas furnace as a back up (it does kick on at night a few times times). You only need to crack a window open about 1/4 to 1/2 inch. If you have the roof vents, then you only need to open them slightly.

We are currently running off the portable 20 LB tanks on the RV (it's a PITA to refill the permanent mount 40 LB tank and we've only filled it once). We built our own "extend a stay (with a quick-connect GAS fitting... don't use air fittings) for a lot less than the commercially available unit. We did that back in 2006.

LP gas shut off valve between the quick connect and the "T" into the RV main gas line... we close down the quick connect when we remove the hose. The 40 LB tank is closed when running the BBQ tanks.
(one gas shut off goes to the RV hose and the other goes to our portable LP gas grill) We shut down all the valves when we swap tanks.

This set up would also allow us to run a 100 lb tank as well. Just have to get a fitting that will work on the 100lb tank fitting, if different. Heating eats up LP. If you are going to run LP heaters in cold weather, Set up your LP lines to allow to to add a"T" into it and hook up a larger tank. We probably won't ever run a 100 lb tank again unless we buy a piece of land to put the bus on as a "home base". We sold our one of our 100 lb tanks and left the other on my mom's cabin (it was a newer tank than what she had) because we have no way to transport the things. I recently found out that NM will not let you transport a tank laying down. So 20lb works for us.

For our bus, we will use two BBQ tanks with a automatic changeover (because the tank always runs out when it's raining, cold and/or in the middle of the night). We will have it set up to allow us to hook up a large 100 lb tank (because you never know what will happen in the future and I have the gas fittings anyway unless we have to add another "T" on the food cart). We like to operate our little cheapie wal-mart gas grill off the big 20 lb tanks. We generally burn up a grill every year from use. That would be a pile of tiny throw away tanks! We've been running LP gas for a long time and we know pretty much how we use it and how much we go thru it. Both for short/long term camping (tent 2 pop-up 2 RV) and for use in a house.

I looked at the 2 pack disposable tanks when I was last in Wal-Mart. They were almost $6. We filled the 20Lb tank (4.7 gallons) just last week for 2.75/gal... with tax that came to 13.84. I've burned up a disposable tank on our heater in one 24 hour day. We will run the 20 lb tank for a couple weeks on the RV... we also cook with LP. $$ wise, it would be better for you to set up a 20 lb tank and pipe it inside. For safety, I would also say to do that as well. I think those little tanks are a tad dangerous. I have had the little needle valve tear up and all the gas leak out (very quickly) in the past. We always remove the tanks while outside. I just don't trust those little throw away tanks.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:34 PM   #13
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Thanks for the detailed reply Lorna! Lots of good info I will certainly use.
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Old 01-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #14
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Dan
Thanks for the detailed reply Lorna!...
A nice way of saying... "Geesh! Shut up already!"
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:48 PM   #15
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Not at all! I'm happy to get as much info as I can.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:30 PM   #16
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

It's made by the same folks who make the two-part slow-rise foam that boat builders use (see link). I know my husband used it on his houseboat (that was pre-me) and he liked it. He had me check to see if it was still being made when I was researching stuff for the Eagle. He did think of using it on the skoolie (the two-part/pour in stuff for the wheel well boxes) but we are going the "foam-house-sheathing-cut-to-fit--and-Great-stuff-can-foam-the-voids" method. Better check your shipping prices and add them to your purchase price. If I remember correctly, that is why I discarded the the spray foam in the first place. The price per R-Value was simply too high when I compared foam sheathing to spray foam (both DIY and professional house sprayers). And that was back when I could buy a lot of the stuff that I was looking at either close to home in Chattanooga or up in Nashville (a 2 hour drive from home at the time). Now, it seems everything has to be shipped into NM. At least we finally found a home depot that stocks the (pink) foam sheathing in the sizes we need (1/2", 3/4", 1" and 2") and it's just a 70 mile trip one way!

http://fomofoam.com/boat_ship_and_pontoon.htm

The up side to the spray on foams is that they insulate plus because the foam expands, eliminates air leaks. The down side is that it is messy and it has to be "trimmed" (if you want to cover with wall covering) which is really messy and time consuming.

Here is a link to what Fred Hobe uses. It's almost at the bottom of the page.
http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/fredhobe6.htm
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:40 PM   #17
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Thanks Smitty, I am going to use the insulation you mentioned on my ceiling. As for the windows, I've cut some 1 1/2" styro slightly smaller than the windows. Plan on covering the edges and "inside" area with the same material I'm using for the upolstery. They will fit snugly in the window openings. I will use these for any extended cold weather outings. Aside form the PIA of finding somewhere to store them.

Alleycat, someone on here, did the entire inside of their bus with that stuff and the trimmed/shaved in the necessary places. looked like it turned out very well. They said it was expensive, but averaged out in labor time and cost of regular styrofoam.

Lorna, Skirts.......thats funny. I am Scottish/Irish. I my mom made a trip to Scotland and found the family crest and plaid. Had kilt made. I wore it to a function once Sporane, dirk and all. I found a new sense of "freedom" that I could not achieve in levis and boxers. As long as the wind did'nt blow up me kilt.
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Old 01-13-2011, 09:23 AM   #18
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Lorna - love that gauge!! where did you find such a thing!
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:16 PM   #19
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papabear
Lorna, Skirts.......thats funny. I am Scottish/Irish. I my mom made a trip to Scotland and found the family crest and plaid. Had kilt made. I wore it to a function once Sporane, dirk and all. I found a new sense of "freedom" that I could not achieve in levis and boxers. As long as the wind did'nt blow up me kilt.
Now you know what women go thru in the winter! BTW, I didn't have to go to Scotland... I'm a McKinnon (of the Coffee County, GA McKinnons) on my father's side.
http://www.houseofnames.com/mackinnon-family-crest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuff
Lorna - love that gauge!! where did you find such a thing!
What gauge?
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:54 PM   #20
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Re: Insulation-propane and Cold

That was bought at Lowes during the summer when they have all their grills and accessories in stock. It's supposed to tell you when the tank is full or almost empty. Doesn't to that too well since cold/hot weather messes with it. But it does a fantastic job of letting us know if the gas lines are leaking somewhere. We tend to shut down the grill if we are not using it. Also we tend to run the water heater on electric not LP (it's an option). So if we have no gas appliances operating the gauge should stay steady. If the gauge is dropping, we have a leak somewhere. We had a gas grill regulator crap out on us once and we caught it on the LP gas gauge (gas level was dropping). We had a stiff breeze blowing away from us and didn't realize the grill itself was leaking gas since we couldn't smell it. You can buy them at lots of places. The pic below is of a Camco brand. We do point it to where we can see it as we enter/exit the RV). It's just a habit to look over at the gauge.


http://www.easternmarineoutlet.com/LP-G ... tor-59023/ (I have not dealt with this company, just pulled their pic and added link for info)
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