Insulation recommendations for Upstate NY?

[tomas_maly]

I plan on being in upstate NY in the winters (lows ranging from -5 to -25 F), and want to plan for insulation appropriately.

I have some polystyrene insulation, about 1 inch thich, rated at R-6.5 that I'd like to put on the interior of my bus (7.5 x 29 ft interior). I'm wondering if this is enough for colder weather, assuming I have heat on (efficient woodstove)? Or should I go with slightly thicker insulation? Maybe a different material?

Would it make sense to try to insulate the ceiling? I happen to have a bunch of R-11 white fiberglass insulation (extra new floor insulation meant for an old mobile home), and wasn't sure if it helps that heat isn't lost thru the ceiling. I am 6'3" and so it would be unfortunate to lose 2 inches at the ceiling area, though. There looks like the ceiling and the roof have a cavity in between them (all the electrical appears to go through conduits immediately above the windows) and I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to try to remove the ceiling (not sure if they are rivets or torx bolts) and see what i can stuff in there. Or maybe it's easier to remove the roof off and do it from the opposite direction?

And then what about the floor (seems easier to insulate, from the underside)? Heat obviously rises, so maybe that's not a concern. Either way I'd probably have polystyrene skirting around the vehicle to prevent drafts to freeze the underside. I'm assuming a woodstove nearby a water tank (underside) would radiate heat and largely prevent the water tank from freezing assuming the interior felt comfortable. Or do people add insulation (can't hurt, maybe as a precaution), heat coils, etc around the water tanks?

I plan on utilizing solar panels so I'm not sure if I can do much in terms of placing anything with insulating properties on the roof.

I was thinking of removing about 1/2 of the windows (for heat retention) and somehow filling them up. Or is it common to just keep the windows and seal them shut, paint over them, etc? I'm assuming if they are removed then that means a bunch of metal work on the exterior, and added sheet metal costs (windows vary from 3'x2' to 2'x2', and I've been quoted about $36 for a 4'x8' sheet of 22 gauge from Fazzio's in NJ). I don't think I could scavenge that much metal. If I kept the windows in, the problem is that once I close it all up from the interior, I can't remove the windows since they come out from the inside. Such as if they get cracked, broken, etc by accident.

[GreyEagle]

Most metal shops will cut it to your measurements if asked .......... Just be sure you have them right before you place you order...

[Accordion]

I have been in upstate NY in 25 below zero. I was not in a bus. I was staying in a house. There was a wood stove. It was always running.

As much insulation (a fair amount) that I put in my bus, I would never attempt to winter out in those temperatures.

If I had to, I would totally block out the majority of the windows from the inside.I would make wall frames and put three inches of styrofoam insulation. I would put two inches on the floor. I would have all my water tanks on the inside. I would have a wood stove that was constantly tended to. I would have LOTS of wood to burn.

Your bus may not even start at 25 below. You could be stuck for some time.

Why upstate? Can't you go to a warmer area?

I am afraid for you if you attempt to winter over in 25 below. Remember, I have been full timing for a LONG time. Longer than most anyone on this forum.

[Diesel Dan]

The advantage of removing windows and skinning the outside with metal is you can fill the cavity left by removing the window with insulation. If you choose to leave the windows and fill in behind them I wouldn't worry about it. If a window breaks you can just skin over the outside with metal and just leave the broken window there sandwiched between the layers. You will want some sort of temporary insulation to put in the windshield and door, etc. You can get insulated roof coating to paint on the outside, but it doesn't do THAT much for you. If you are tall I think it would really suck to not be able to stand up straight if you are full timing in the winter, so adding insulation to the inside of the ceiling may not be practical. I would at least put a thin layer of something though, and a radiant barrier to reflect the heat back in. I think insulating the floor from the outside would be a good bet for you. The ceiling likely has some insulation from the factory, but not much R value there. Lorna just posted something about insulation that you will find interesting, and I think Rudy (Accordian) makes some good points. A bus just doesn't sound like the best solution for the kind of cold you are describing, but if you are committed to that solution then you will really have to insulate well and keep all your plumbing warm, which is easiest to do if it is all inside the bus.

[tomas_maly]

I appreciate the tips!

It sounds like it's easier to just leave the windows there and insulate from the inside and if/when windows break to just cover them up from the outside. The alternative seems to get sheet metal now and rivet it on, but if that can wait....

I see some of the projects some folk on here do and it's overwhelming the lengths they go to strip the bus and make it look like an RV! I really don't have the time. Especially not to remove thousands of rivets.

I'd like to find an easy way to have windows open if possible with some sort of screening. I may need to build my own window screens that will snap into place from the outside.

I'm not committed to being in upstate NY in a bus during the winters - just that Ithaca was in my plans for the last few years anyway. I was originally thinking of a larger permanent home that was super insulated with strawbale and had a large wood stove. I may be better off going somewhere down south for the winter. I may end up living there during the warmer months. I was planning of getting some land so I can build a permanent home in a few years. I've been stuck in South Jersey (very rural) for the last 8 years and I've been itching to be around some more interesting / radically minded people. My kids' mother is staying in NJ so I can't go too far away for too long with the kids.

Is 25F winter lows a bit more reasonable? (ie mid-Atlantic or so) Assuming I had the insulation (R-6.5) plus a woodstove burning most of the time.

[tomas_maly]

I'm still not sure how I'm going to do the water. Right now it's just going to be a hose hookup that mounts on the outside that goes directly to a 1/2" flex line to the sink (with a shut-off valve in between). And from the sink to a 5-gallon bucket. At least to get it registered and until I have time for any permanent tanks.

Tractor Supply Company has 100 gallon steel tanks (for $350) that fit perfectly underneath the vehicle, but stick a bit down beyond the normal skirting (still with about 1 1/2 foot clearance). I'm tempted to just get that tank since it's about as large as I'd ever get, and pretty reasonably priced. But it would fit below the bus under the floor. I was thinking that the woodstove having radiant heat might help keep the tank warm, but I'm guessing it's still a huge risk even if the tank itself was insulated. Maybe then there could be a smaller tank (25-50 gallon) INSIDE, for the winter months. I really won't know until I start getting the essentials (beds, stove, sink) in the vehicle.

Honestly maybe the idea of living on the road, seasonally, etc is more my style anyway. I've been in one place for too long and it's really got to me. Or if I do settle down then maybe I shouldn't spend so much time/effort on making the bus perfect and just treat it like a temporary shelter.

[Diesel Dan]

Originally Posted by tomas_maly

Tractor Supply Company has 100 gallon steel tanks (for $350) that fit perfectly underneath the vehicle, but stick a bit down beyond the normal skirting (still with about 1 1/2 foot clearance). I'm tempted to just get that tank since it's about as large as I'd ever get, and pretty reasonably priced. But it would fit below the bus under the floor. I was thinking that the woodstove having radiant heat might help keep the tank warm, but I'm guessing it's still a huge risk even if the tank itself was insulated.

I would think a steel tank would rust if it were being used for water, but I may be wrong. I think for that price you could get a real RV poly tank custom sized to fit in the space you want to put it. I'm sure you can quickly find a few places on the net where you can order those. I'm using 30gallon poly drums I got for $5 each at a car wash (the cleaning chemicals came in them). I'm thinking of connecting two together for each "tank" so I will have 60 gallons fresh and 60 gallons grey. I will use 5 gallon jugs inside the bus for drinking/cooking water. They don't protrude much beyond the skirt. People with rear engine buses who have basement storage compartments have the ideal situation for keeping water tanks warm. They just put the tanks in those compartments, insulate, and add a small heating device to that space. But since you don't have that configuration you will have to get creative. I'm sure I have read about a few solutions on this forum; I suggest you use the search feature to find those threads.

[chev49]

actually, with a RE bus, you dont have to insulate the compartments if ya just put a 1000w heater in it during the winter. has to get really cold for plumbing to freeze if ya got the heater.

[usmcbay]

I had the Spray in insulation put in my bus and this is one thing I notice.

Consider how different our weather is in Houston though...

In the mornings with high humidity My bus sweats from the A/C on the exterior... I can PHYSICALLY see where the 2x3's are in my walls. The wood transfers the cooler temps to the exterior body. The areas the Spray in Insulation is does not sweat. I regretted doing it at first but now~! Now I'm totally sold.

[tomas_maly]

That is true about the steel tank not being suitable for water. Whether it's coated by something on the inside or not.

Tractor Supply actually has plastic/poly tanks for a bit cheaper, thought they might not mount underneath (maybe a bit big). They are the type of cylindrical barrels that are strapped onto the bed of a farm pickup truck. They even have a 165 gallon tank, for $350. If I have room on the inside of the bus, I may opt to put something inside, especially to help with winter usage.

[chev49]

steel tanks will last a lot longer than people realize. for example, the tank in my pump house is at least 25 yrs old and is still holding water. My dad after ww2 on the first farm he bought, got a new war surplus steel aircraft fuel tank and ran the pump to it. and it never leaked. on the farm he bought in the 70's he bought a new steel 1000 gal fuel tank and had it shipped from portland, ore and it worked fine for the house water storage. we just hosed it out once a year.

having said the above, i dont reccomend steel tanks, but poly ones.

on the farm in alabama, i am going to put a new pump and steel tank on the well when i get back there this fall...

[tomas_maly]

Chev, yeah I was thinking more in terms of risking rust getting into the water supply. I've had hot water heaters bust on me after 3-4 years of use. It gets messy and then all the water is red. The interior of the tank ends up rusting and corroding at an expoential rate and then I remember having a pile of red sludge spilling as I was dragging the thing out of the house.

Has anyone ever put a skoolie (or RV for that matter) in a superinsulated shelter for cold winters? I was thinking maybe next year's winter I could have a large enough post and beam shelter build to park the bus in and from there superinsulate it with strawbales. It would basically function as a barn garage at that point.

Part of why I liked the idea of a school bus motorhome is that it's a cheap way to have a livable shelter, and using it, you can transition to a more permanent shelter, similar in concept to Rob Roy's Mortgage-Free Living temporary/transition shelter. You get the livable shelter ( a camper, bus, etc), build a frame around it, add walls/insulation, drill a permanent well, install a septic system, drive the bus/etc out of the shelter (front doors large enough, can be filled in later), and then use the newly built shelter as a permanent home.

It seems kinda practical and can be done over 2-3 years and maybe make living in a place like upstate NY more feasible year round. Rob Roy himself lives somewhere in the Adirondacks and had a similar approach.

[chev49]

the cheapest thing to build is a roof only pole building at first. then you can add walls as you have the money to do so. for a bus you need at least 18' long 4x6 or better for uprights, and so forth.

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by chev49

the cheapest thing to build is a roof only pole building at first. then you can add walls as you have the money to do so. for a bus you need at least 18' long 4x6 or better for uprights, and so forth.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/green...iler-home.aspx

[chev49]

mother earth news is room addition article.
lots of people build those when parked semi permanently.
good place for the extra freezer and the cat box...

[lornaschinske]

Originally Posted by chev49

mother earth news is room addition article.
lots of people build those when parked semi permanently.
good place for the extra freezer and the cat box...

The WHOLE trailer is sitting INSIDE the room addition. It's a common practice where we come from. My parents did a similar thing in NC with the mobile home we lived in for many years. In 1965, my Dad bought a used (cheap) 2 bed/1 bath mobile home in Fl, towed it up to NC with his 3/4 ton pick up truck Slapped it on the land they had bought so we would have a place to stay during summers (and all school holidays that gave us a long weekend) while my Dad worked. Over time it had a roof built over the mobile home, a slab poured out front that ran the length of the trailer. The slab was enclosed which created my parents bedroom and master bath, a laundry room and the living room. After I married David & we moved up to NC (early 80's), the mobile home was pulled out and David built the rooms under the remaining roof (kitchen, dining, 2 bedrooms & 1 bath). After that was done, he added on a covered "L" shaped porch a few years later (mid 80's). So my parents ended up with a 3 bed/2 bath house (roughly 1800 SF) built out of pocket on 7 acres that is also paid for. No building or improvement loans. No building permits were ever pulled either since it was basically built piecemeal over the decades. The closest to an inspection the house would receive was when the guy who did building inspections would come to our house to buy tile from my Dad. My Dad traded his skills (tile setter) and excess tile for other people's skills. The electrician who did all the wiring did the same. He got tile bathrooms & kitchen from my Dad. Bartering also got the bulldozer work as well.

So, you build a pole shed (either timberframe, modified timberframe or post-&-beam construction). Enclose the sides with dual thermal glass french or sliding doors. Gives you a buffer from the weather that you can park your RV inside. Is that a room addition? If it is, then we will eventually acquire some land and build a "room addition" for the bus (one of the "doors" will allow the bus in/out). The roofing will have a few panels of translucent material to allow natural light in. If you wanted to go cheap, you could use translucent corrugated panels on the sides as well tin stead of windows or french/sliding doors. And a greenhouse or two for aquaponics. Or maybe the pole shed will house the aquaponics along with us. If we decide to, it's easy to slap some floor joists in and build a house inside the envelope. Building a house inside an enclosed pole shed isn't much different than building a house inside a steel bus. The ability to park the bus inside the enclosed pole barn will help hide it from nosy neighbours who think living in a home on wheels is wrong.

BTW, I don't think Yankees do this type of out of pocket building (yet another instance of Yankee weirdness). David seemed surprised at some of the places we looked at the first time we were house hunting in NC. It's a great way of having an "instant" house and an "out-of-pocket" debt-free house as well. Just takes time. I wouldn't completely enclose a trailer inside a frame making it unable to be pulled out, but many have done that.

[bansil]

Right up the road in trade,a friend bought some land and moved a single wide onto the property,over the next couple years it has morfed into a very nice looking 2 story house,I have no idea if the mobile home is still in it or not,since I haven't seen him in years!
From the road noone would know unless you saw it built....every time I go to Boone I think of the change as I drive by

[tomas_maly]

I'm thinking of re-insulating the bus walls, and ultimately double-insulating the bus, with an added 1 1/2 inch thick of insulation (2-by's laid flat on the wall, mainly to attach plywood to cover the lower halves of the windows).

I took off the interior wall (the piece of galvanized steel that goes between the window and the ledge that the seats mount to, approximately 11 inches high), which required taking the window out, but with a power drill and most of the screws being torx (and not rivets), it was fairly quick. I noticed there was a very flimsy piece of yellow insulation in a 2-inch space, and figured if I re-do the insulation, I may fare better in colder areas without having to somehow wrap insulation (ie strawbales) from the outside.

I do like the idea of some temporary solar heat attracting greenhouse like shelter. But it would be nice to double insulate the bus itself and see if I can cram enough insulation to get it up to R-30 (ie R-19 in the metal cavities and R-13 in the interior 2-by's). I'm not sure if it'll all fit, but I guess it's worth a shot.

I'm curious what sort of max R-value people might be able to get if they were to re-insulate or double insulate. I'm assuming there's about 3 1/2 inches of workable space. I spoke to a guy at Lowe's and he said for about $56 I could get enough 24" high insulation (the space between the floor and the window ledge) to last about 70 feet, ie the whole bus. The interior wall would be a bit higher in some places to cover the lower halves of the window. I'd guess maybe 1/3 of the windows would be entirely covered, 1/3 half covered, and 1/3 fully exposed.

From what I was told, the insulation they have is ~ R-19 to R-21 at around 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 inches, which I'm not sure if that'll compress to a 2-inch space. And then some R-13 to R-15 that measures about 3 1/2 inches uncompressed. Has anyone had luck trying to squish stuff like that in such small spaces? My measurements show that I have exactly 2 inches in the bus cavity and another 1 1/2 inches in the inner wall I'm adding (2-by's laid flat). I'm assuming with all those torx screws and the metal sink bolts I'm using that it could resist some force from the insulation.

As for a heat source, I'd probably have a woodstove in by winter time. Right now I'm just trying to minimize heat loss.

Up until now I was going to just go with some R-6.5 rigid paneling I have laying around (1 1/2 inches thick), but if I can get all the way to R-30 then I would opt to not use that previous insulation. Maybe for some other project where there's a bit more room, but in such a tight spot and in potential extreme conditions, I want to get the most insulation possible.

[ol trunt]

The insulation you are talking about can not be crushed to fit. It requires the captive air spaces within its un- compressed thickness to work. Your best choice would be one of the foam board insulation materials doubled up to achieve the "R" value you want.

[tomas_maly]

I found this Excel spreadsheet at Owens-Corning's website about insulation compression:

http://www.owenscorning.com/around/i...ssionChart.xls

Seems that R-6.5 is the most I'd ever get from 1 1/2" of space, and I already get that with my foam insulation, so I guess I may as well stick with that. And R-10 is the most I'd get with the outer 2-inch cavity, which is what the 2-inch rigid insulation gives anyway. Only difference is the price, I think the fiberglass is cheaper, maybe 1/3rd the cost. It might be easier to put fiberglass insulation in the cavities (and just as effective). I probably am realistically looking at most R-16 with double insulation (3 1/2 " thick).

Seems that for every inch you compress fiberglass, it loses about R-2.5 . So it doesn't seem to make sense to overstuff insulation, you may as well buy the one rated for the size you need. Just in case someone was wondering.