Looking for a bus, does my dream bus exist?

[themoreweexplore]

I've done a little bit of research, and I have some pretty specific criteria for the bus I want to buy soon. This will be my first bus, and I want reliability over everything else, as I will be living in it full time with my wife as we slowly travel across the US.

Here's our wish list.

1) rear emergency exit (or at least rear side emergency exit) for our "garage" where we will keep the mountain bikes. This is a must (unless you have a better storage solution for mountain bikes in the rear of the bus. I'm all ears). I don't want to keep the bikes in the middle of the bus, they're too big and they'll just be in the way all the time. And I don't want to keep the bicycles outside as they're valuable and I don't want them being exposed to the elements all the time.

2) DT466 engine, I'm sold on this one after reading the reliability. I could possibly be talked into an equivalent 8L cummins, but only if the power/reliability is going to be similar.

3) Sturdy, OD trans. I want the best of both worlds (don't we all?): able to climb the steep passes in Colorado, but still cruise at 65-70 mph comfortably without overheating or destroying the motor. I don't need lightning fast speeds, just reliability as we travel the US. I'd even be ok with a manual trans, provided it's reliable, and my wife can drive it. She's great at driving stick in an econobox, but I imagine a bus is an entirely different beast.

4) I think we want something in the 30-35 foot range. 40 ft would be awesome for the room, but I fear it'd be too big to get into the campsites we want. I only want a single rear axle.

5) ground clearance would be ideal, since we plan on doing a fair amount of boondocking.

6) I'd love a jake or engine brake of some kind when descending. We plan on spending a lot of time in Colorado, Idaho, Utah, and the West Coast.

7) rust free is always ideal, but I can handle patching a few panels.

date of manufacture doesn't really matter to me, as long as it's reliable and fit for building our house in.


We're open to either a school bus or a touring bus, provided the above criteria are met.

Does anything like this exist, or did I just build a dream bus that I'll never find?


And a few other noob questions.

1) I think I want a mid-engine, but I could be talked out of this if a dognose would be better. Rear engine would be ideal, but I'd lose my rear garage area, which is a must have.

2) is a mid-engine any quieter to drive than a dognose? any disadvantages to a mid-engine? I imagine they'll have a better
weight distributi

3) I live in Utah, so something close by would be fantastic (I'm not asking you to search for me, but I wouldn't turn down someone dropping a line on something they found that meets my criteria)

4) Do I want air brakes or hydraulic?

5) I think I want a steel body, so i can weld it up if I need to. I can't tig weld, so aluminum bodies don't seem as repairable for me. Am I overthinking this?

Our plans: keep backpacking the US as we live and work full-time out of our bus. We'll be hauling a 4000lb 4x4 toad for in-town exploration and mountain bike/camping trips. We plan on staying in each town for a few weeks before moving to the next. We want to boondock but also be able to camp at RV camps as well. Any suggestions are greatly apprciated.

[nat_ster]

Welcome.

Go read as many build threads as you can. The answers to most of your questions are there.

No welding needed. Buses are riveted together.

Your not going to get a mid engine unless you buy a Crown. People that like looks over function have driven the price of crowns way up. Some think they are made of gold.
Crowns are much harder to convert due to the way they are made and all the curved panels. Also parts like windshields and such are no longer available, making them super expensive when you find one.
Over all, for someone that thinks logically, a crown is not worth having for the reasons I mentioned and many more.

Rear engine buses are great for their balance, power, and comfort when driving. The engine noise stays in the rear away from the operator.

Most rear engine buses have a door on the drivers side for emergency escape. This door is only around 24 inches wide, but would be large enough to get peddle bikes in and out.

Many rear engine buses have air ride and air brakes.

Around here rear engine buses cost around twice what a dog nose bus will.

We have several dog nose 96 international 38 footers with mechanical DT466's, 5 and 6 speed standard transmissions, and best of all, air ride. The rear caps are rusted on them all, preventing them from being used as a bus anymore. Most of them have just over 100,000km on them. One tenth of the life of the engine.

Nat

[themoreweexplore]

Thanks for the advice Nat. Good points on the crowns, I wasn't aware of that.

On the rear-engine busses, with the emergency escape door, is it at the very back, or more like 3/4 back?

[EastCoastCB]

For where you want to go and the lifestyle you want to live, get a 35-ish footer conventional nose bus. Best of rougher roads and towing. And it will have a nice rear door that can be made into your garage area. I'm building a bike/tool area in the back of my 40 footer.
Get one from, say, Colorado since it was ordered and spec'ed to handle the terrain better than one from a low lying state. You won't likely find any with a real Jake, but some have retarders. You really want a manual transmission for the mountains.
A coach bus would be awesome, but the ground clearance mat be an issue as will the rear door. These cruise down the highway so much better than any school bus, imo.
You're right about the DT466 being a great engine. I love mine. It runs as good as new with a quarter million miles on it and parts are everywhere. Very serviceable and common. Get a mechanical one (pre 1996 but a few 96's are out there with mechanical injection too) for ease of working on it.
A dog nose, mechanical 466 bus is pretty darn rugged and I think that's what I'd start searching for first.
All just my opinion, of course.

[themoreweexplore]

Thanks East Coast CB. When you say the coach busses cruise better down the highway, are you talking about the ride, gearing, power, speed, or all of the above? Is a school bus unbearable to travel 1000 miles in? I really appreciate all the feedback, I know there are a million of these threads every day on here.

Would a coach bus be decent in the mountains, or are they better suited for flat, long stretches?

Are dog nose busses so loud that I should consider using earplugs when driving long distances?

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by themoreweexplore

Thanks for the advice Nat. Good points on the crowns, I wasn't aware of that.

On the rear-engine busses, with the emergency escape door, is it at the very back, or more like 3/4 back?

They are in front of the rear wheel well, 3/4 of the way back.

Nat

[themoreweexplore]

k, that's what I thought. I was secretly hoping there was another DT466 RE bus out there with a exit/garage in the very back.

[Scooternj]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

They are in front of the rear wheel well, 3/4 of the way back.

Nat

The emergency exit on mine, open-

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by themoreweexplore

Thanks East Coast CB. When you say the coach busses cruise better down the highway, are you talking about the ride, gearing, power, speed, or all of the above? Is a school bus unbearable to travel 1000 miles in? I really appreciate all the feedback, I know there are a million of these threads every day on here.

Would a coach bus be decent in the mountains, or are they better suited for flat, long stretches?

Are dog nose busses so loud that I should consider using earplugs when driving long distances?

As long as you arent hitting any off highway type situations a coach is better on any kind of decent, paved road. They get a bit less mpg but are like cadillacs. Theyre more comfortable more powerful and all that.
A thousand miles isnt too bad in a schoolie. I drove my bus nearly a thousand miles home. But I was a bit envious of every coach that flew by me as I puttered along the slow lane.
But a school bus cheaper and more rugged. I have a quarter mile long sugar sand driveway that a coach simply wouldnt be likely to get through.
I think cabin noise isnt as bad as many seem to.think. a conventional bus isnt bad at all imo but what do I know I ran a plasma table for a decade and own a FE bus. The noise from mine didnt bother me too bad in 800 miles of driving.
Think ill be sleeping and cooking in mine way more than driving it anyhow.

[nat_ster]

Front engine dog nose buses ride as good as any MDT truck. With air ride rears, I think they ride and handle great. I have driven a 96 international with a DT466, air ride rear back from Edmonton to Westlock (a hour drive) at 206 kmh. That bus has 3.54 gears. The long wheel base and the air ride made for great high speed handling.

Front engine flat nose buses like the TC2000 ride poorly. They nose dive into every crack in the road. The shorter the bus, the worse it is. Some buyers order more shocks per wheel in the front to try to fix this issue. I have seen 3 shocks per wheel. It does help some, but the dog nose still rides better.
They are also loud, and hot. They lack insulation between you and the engine.

For your needs, I would get a 96 or older international dog nose, DT466 with a 6 speed manual transmission, and air ride rear. It will still have the big back door you need. Most here also have the Better air brakes. Best combo for your needs IMO.

Nat

[themoreweexplore]

thanks nat, thats just what i was looking for. with the manual trans, how often do clutches typically go out? will the 6 speed cruise ok @ 70 mph for hours without hurting it?

[themoreweexplore]

one more question. when they measure a bus, are they measuring tip to tail? so a 35 foot bus would have more seating in a flat nose than a dog nose?

[Hank's P-O-S]

Originally Posted by nat_ster

Front engine dog nose buses ride as good as any MDT truck. With air ride rears, I think they ride and handle great. I have driven a 96 international with a DT466, air ride rear back from Edmonton to Westlock (a hour drive) at 206 kmh. That bus has 3.54 gears. The long wheel base and the air ride made for great high speed handling.


Nat

I'll give ya $ 37.82 and a half eaten chese burger for it!? Maybe? Please?!
That sounds like a REAL nice bus. All the buses we get here in MB are bottom-of-the-barrel, slow, junk here. Our roads kill anything that gets whith in 200 miles of the province. I'm seeing busses from 05 already completely ruined....

[nat_ster]

Originally Posted by themoreweexplore

thanks nat, thats just what i was looking for. with the manual trans, how often do clutches typically go out? will the 6 speed cruise ok @ 70 mph for hours without hurting it?

How often the clutch needs changing fully depends on how you drive. If you let the clutch out and don't slip it much, it will last a life time.

I have only ever had to change the clutch in two vehicles I drive. One was my 2003 dodge one ton that pulled C-can shipping containers it's whole life. At 500,000km it needed changing.
The other was last summer in the 3 ton tree spade truck. After about 8 years of constant maneuvering into tree poisons it needed changing.

Clutch this size is around $1200 for parts. It can be done yourself if you watch a few you tube videos. Difficulty on a 1 to 10 is a 7.

Running that speed as long as you have the gearing to keep the engine at a safe RPM will not hurt anything. Gearing is the key.

Originally Posted by themoreweexplore

one more question. when they measure a bus, are they measuring tip to tail? so a 35 foot bus would have more seating in a flat nose than a dog nose?

Yes the flat nose will have a few more feet of interior space than a dog nose. But they lose aerodynamics, and comfort.

Nat

[themoreweexplore]

Super helpful Nat, thanks.

[cowlitzcoach]

There is no "perfect" bus out there.

Everything is a compromise in order to do what you need to do the most with some of the bells and whistles to make the job user friendly. And when most of the buses are purchased via low bids you will find most school buses are pretty basic.

Western buses, specifically WA, OR, CA, and CO buses, tend to have state spe'c's that are considerably more laden with "standard" equipment than eastern buses. A WA spe'c bus will cost about $20,000.00 more than a ND spe'c bus due in large part to what WA requires as standard over what ND requires as standard.

You will also find many of the trip buses purchased by schools in states like MT are set up more like a coach than a school bus--activity or coach recliner seats, big HP, high speed gearing, pass through under the floor luggage compartments, air suspension, coach type slider windows, A/C, etc.

The vast majority of school buses spend 90+% of their service life at 35 MPH or less. Finding a school bus that has the HP and gearing to go highway speeds is the exception and not the rule. And most of those are going to be 40' RE buses.

Rear air suspension has been standard equipment on all IC RE buses for the ten years or so. Rear air and full air suspensions have been an option clear back into the '50's. Finding any school bus with even just rear air suspension older than ten years old will be the exception and not the rule.

Automatic transmissions have been the standard in the industry for all buses for more than 20-years. Still, some operators will pay extra for a stick shift but those are so few and far between that it is noteworthy when one sees one.

Air brakes in a bus are desirable for many reasons. The most important for a convertor is they rarely have any issues from sitting around for a long time.

Every hydraulic brake system will have issues from moisture getting into the brake system (brake fluid is hydroscopic and attracts water). Over time the water will reduce the boiling point of the brake fluid enough that you can literally boil your brake fluid away on a long down grade. The water in the brake fluid can also cause rust to build up in the brake cylinders causing the brakes to leak fluid and fail.

Air brakes do not have the same sort of problems with moisture although moisture can play havoc on air brake systems as well. Using the water drains every day and a good air dryer and/or automatic air drains elminate most moisture issues with air brakes. Air brakes don't mind if they sit and don't get used. Air brakes also tend to have much greater braking surfaces so the time interval between brake service jobs is usually much greater. And the best thing about air brakes is the emergency/parking brake will actually hold the bus in place on any sort of grade if the brakes are adjusted correctly.

Up until the last few years when the engine brake on Cummins ISB engines was an option that cost about $100.00 auxililary braking systems have been extremely rare in the school bus world except for in CO. In CO the state minimum spe'c includes auxiliary braking systems.

Good luck with your search for your dream bus. If I can help please let me know how I can help.

[themoreweexplore]

thank you so much for that info, I really appreciate it cwolitzcoach. It sounds like a retarder or air brake would be worth the rust I would likely find on a colorado bus.

[EastCoastCB]

Colorado is the "high desert" I've seen lots of vehicles out there that aren't very rusty. Like I said, if a bus can handle the Rockies, the rest of the country should be a piece of cake.

[themoreweexplore]

It's the salt on the road that I'm worried about. Here in Utah the salt eats our cars alive.

[EastCoastCB]

They salt the roads in Ky and my bus is virtually rust free except that the crappy roof hatches leaked for 23 years causing rust in the ceilings.
The buses I've seen from Co are solid.
People often pay 2-3x as much for "florida buses" thinking they have no rust for some reason, or that they're maintained well possibly. Wrong on both counts. We have salt in the very AIR here. The furthest point in Fl from salt water is around 60 miles. The constant humidity and rain only make the rust worse. The schools here are as under-funded as they come, too. But people pay way more for these rusty, less-maintained florida buses due to us not having road salt.