Putting the metal ceiling back up after insulating?

[sepudo]

I'm glad I found this thread. I'm a new bus owner and I had been thinking about this topic for a while even before.
My only thoughts are that I would rather leave the inner ceiling panel and whatever insulation is in there be, then install furring strip on each rib, then ADD spray foam or rigid foam, then screw my finishing panel to the furring strip. Essentially ending with layer that look like this from top to bottom :

Outer metal
Insulation (assuming it has some)
Inner metal panel
Furring strip and spray foam or rigid foam
Finishing panel (solid sheet or T&G)

In this scenario I have to believe I'll get better insulation this way, rather than having removed the stock inner metal panel and insulation, and then adding new insulation and a new finishing panel.

Plus my reasoning is time saved in not removing the oem bits.

Height inside is not an issue.

And lastly for what it's worth. I plan on leaving the stock floor as well and insulation and adding new flooring on top. Also for better thermal dynamics.

Thoughts? (other than weight or time or price) specifically asking for insulative properties.

Thanks

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

Wish I could re use my ceiling metal but unfortunately it's the perforated variety that Bluebird offered as a premium "acoustic" ceiling.

Can you see thru it when you sre standing close by. If you can then you may be able to sell it or use it to make screen doors for burglar bar door/gates.

[cadillackid]

All busses are different.. my 3.. my carpenter I can feel the interior ceiling get hot as soon as the sun comes out.. so I know the factory insulation is worthless.. if I were converting it I’d want to pull the ceiling ..
My bluebird which came with factory AirCon is insulated pretty good, that bus ceiling takes a good long time to get hot when sun hits it. I might be inclined to leave it if I converted and was not travelling to extremes..

My old 78 superior I’m not sure there’s much insulation at all..

Of course winter isn’t the time to do a “sun test” of your ceiling but point is all busses appear different I’m how well they were done at factory..

Floors - if you have plywood and a perfectly tight sealed bus there’s a chance the floor is in good shape otherwise most I’ve seen are harboring mold and creating rust where the wood got water logged from leaky windows hatches etc.
I’d want to pull the rubber and at least take a look.
Christopher

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by sepudo

I'm glad I found this thread. I'm a new bus owner and I had been thinking about this topic for a while even before.
My only thoughts are that I would rather leave the inner ceiling panel and whatever insulation is in there be, then install furring strip on each rib, then ADD spray foam or rigid foam, then screw my finishing panel to the furring strip. Essentially ending with layer that look like this from top to bottom :

Outer metal
Insulation (assuming it has some)
Inner metal panel
Furring strip and spray foam or rigid foam
Finishing panel (solid sheet or T&G)

In this scenario I have to believe I'll get better insulation this way, rather than having removed the stock inner metal panel and insulation, and then adding new insulation and a new finishing panel.

Plus my reasoning is time saved in not removing the oem bits.

Height inside is not an issue.

And lastly for what it's worth. I plan on leaving the stock floor as well and insulation and adding new flooring on top. Also for better thermal dynamics.

Thoughts? (other than weight or time or price) specifically asking for insulative properties.

Thanks

Ceiling plan sounds good, not sure about the floor, I don't know how to do a non destructive test on it. Perhaps test the windows for leaks with a sprinkler running against it for a long while or try to mimic a hard down ward rain with hose - spray up and let it fall down at an angle while some one watches inside?? Maybe take the wall panels off and check for rust or signs of leaking. If the windows are leaking badly, the floor may have problems as well.


If the floor feels soft anywhere I would take it up and find out why. Might try the old wood rot/termite test, take an ice pick and start poking from both the top and bottom. If it goes in easy, you have problems.


one thought on the floor. OSB is not that expensive. If you ever go to sell the bus having photographic evidence that the floor is sound would be a good thing. If it is bad now would be the time to fix it. Take plenty of detail pics either way to document your case.

[ACamper]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Ceiling plan sounds good, not sure about the floor, I don't know how to do a non destructive test on it. Perhaps test the windows for leaks with a sprinkler running against it for a long while or try to mimic a hard down ward rain with hose - spray up and let it fall down at an angle while some one watches inside?? Maybe take the wall panels off and check for rust or signs of leaking. If the windows are leaking badly, the floor may have problems as well.


If the floor feels soft anywhere I would take it up and find out why. Might try the old wood rot/termite test, take an ice pick and start poking from both the top and bottom. If it goes in easy, you have problems.


one thought on the floor. OSB is not that expensive. If you ever go to sell the bus having photographic evidence that the floor is sound would be a good thing. If it is bad now would be the time to fix it. Take plenty of detail pics either way to document your case.

It is basically impossible to tell what is underneath the floor of a bus until you pull it up. I had a piece of ¾ plywood in the drivers section it looked fine from the top, when I pulled it up. it was full of nasty mold and decay underneath. I have heard lots of similar stories.

Looking for leaks can also be tough, most of my leaks were from the bottom corners of the windows. They were leaking and the water was going down the insides of the walls. I had the opportunity to stay in my bus when it was gutted for a few weeks in rain and snow melt. I got to see where all the leaks were.

I would not use OSB in a bus. OSB is designed for inexpensive/cheap interior grade use. Any water on it and it will deteriorate fast.. it swells and turns to a handful of wafer chips. In a home OSB is covered by tile or linoleum near sinks, in bedrooms it is covered enough carpet foam to handle a beverage spill. I have seen lots of OSB pieces out in 10-20min of light rain showers the next day it is ruined.

[EastCoastCB]

There's exterior grade osb.
But I'd still go with plywood. Marine grade if you're spendy.

[Free Bird]

If you have a roof vent, unscrew the trim from the inside and have a look for insulation.

[ACamper]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

There's exterior grade osb.
But I'd still go with plywood. Marine grade if you're spendy.

The "exterior grade" OSB has a thin coating on one side of it. It is designed so when you are building a subfloor or roof sheathing it can withstand rain a time or two before you get it covered. The coating doesn't last very long or withstand much it is only designed for exposure during construction.

I have seem homes being built that ran out of money or were neglected for a a couple of months. Even in a dry climate after a month or two of exposure the OSB will turn gray and start falling apart.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by ACamper

The "exterior grade" OSB has a thin coating on one side of it. It is designed so when you are building a subfloor or roof sheathing it can withstand rain a time or two before you get it covered. The coating doesn't last very long or withstand much it is only designed for exposure during construction.

I have seem homes being built that ran out of money or were neglected for a a couple of months. Even in a dry climate after a month or two of exposure the OSB will turn gray and start falling apart.

My house was built with such exterior grade OSB... they built the foundation for the basement.. put up the trusses, layed the floor with exterior OSB and started on the walls.. ran out of lumber.. (that was the year 4 hurricanes hit florida.. so ohio wasnt getting any lumber!).. was also one of the rainiest years oin record.. after 3 weeks of my house sitting in the rain the edges were curling up on thast exterior board.. yeah when we finally got lumber again, the few walls were torn down and floor pulled and re-done... it didnt last...

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by ACamper

It is basically impossible to tell what is underneath the floor of a bus until you pull it up. I had a piece of ¾ plywood in the drivers section it looked fine from the top, when I pulled it up. it was full of nasty mold and decay underneath. I have heard lots of similar stories.

Looking for leaks can also be tough, most of my leaks were from the bottom corners of the windows. They were leaking and the water was going down the insides of the walls. I had the opportunity to stay in my bus when it was gutted for a few weeks in rain and snow melt. I got to see where all the leaks were.

I would not use OSB in a bus. OSB is designed for inexpensive/cheap interior grade use. Any water on it and it will deteriorate fast.. it swells and turns to a handful of wafer chips. In a home OSB is covered by tile or linoleum near sinks, in bedrooms it is covered enough carpet foam to handle a beverage spill. I have seen lots of OSB pieces out in 10-20min of light rain showers the next day it is ruined.

Thanks for the input on leaking.


About the OSB.


Most of my experience with OSB has been with roof decking. I was a diehard plywood fan because that was all I had ever used and OSB reminded me of particle board and that crap would swell and fall apart when wet.


Then one day I needed some quick disposable side boards for one of my pickups to enlarge the capacity to haul wood shingles to the dump (lightweight but takes up a lot of space). The sideboards got left on the truck during a 3 say rain and I thought that I would have to trash them.... but they were still sturdy, the edges had swollen up but the were still use able, This prompted me to research OSB and try it out. Turned out to be better than OCX (decking grade plywood). Once installed, after exposed to a rain, OCX would bubble up (small delaminated areas on the top ply caused by the wood swelling/expanding when it got wet.) OSB did not have this problem. Both external OCX plywood, and OSB use waterproof glue.


The biggest advantage of OSB is in waste (this is not going to be true for school bus floors since the sheet is not spanning joists/rafters but is being supported by the flat metal floor). OSB is unidirectional (it does not have a grain and has the same strength in all directions). Construction plywood is stronger in the length direction than in the width direction and needs to be laid longways across spans (this is due to the number and direction of the plys). If you run it parallel to the spans it will sag when you walk on it. This means that it is hard to find a use for some odd shaped pieces on a job. It does not matter which direction you lay OSB so the odd pieces are easier to use up, less waste. OSB is also cheaper, not as cheap as it used to be now that it is so popular.

[BusDreamerRick]

We have been going back and forth on this so we punched most of the rivets and took some off then tried taking down a panel. We have a 1990 International and our ceiling panels didn't fall right off like everyone we see doing this, our ceilings panels are thick!!! So after trying to remove one we notice that the insulation is in great condition and now we are backing out and going to put the panel back and keep the original ceiling but the screws aren't working so now we are planning on buying a rivet gun and putting new rivets in so one thing is we pulled out the wiring for the speakers and lights our wiring was running along the ceiling, is this a typical thing in school buses? if so what doe people do to hide those wires? I think our ceilings may be steal and not aluminum.

[EastCoastCB]

They're steel. 20ga.

[BusDreamerRick]

ok so we are feeling that its too late to go backwards because we already punched all the rivets and started pulling the ceiling panels down, now there is a a challenge coming up with this steel strip above the windows that seem to be holding the ceiling and roof in place, has anybody else had this in their bus? for anyone reading this in the future if you have steel ceilings in your bus I would recommend just leaving them alone

[Sp6saz]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I am not sure what they call them but aircraft use some form of temporary panel fastener that holds and aligns the panel. I imagine you used these on the C-130. I have seen them in use on aircraft during restoration. I do not know if they are "blind" or have to have access to the back side, but certainly worth checking out.

Cherry locks.... I'm not sure if their real name but in the military for air frame repair we called them cherry locks this allowed for holding the metal in place while checking fit before permanently attaching with rivets

[rossvtaylor]

Originally Posted by Sp6saz

Cherry locks.... I'm not sure if their real name but in the military for air frame repair we called them cherry locks this allowed for holding the metal in place while checking fit before permanently attaching with rivets

Hopefully he's got it done by now! But for others reading this and looking for them, the common name (which might be the brand) is a Cleco fastener. I've got them in a couple different sizes and they're quite handy.

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by rossvtaylor

Hopefully he's got it done by now! But for others reading this and looking for them, the common name (which might be the brand) is a Cleco fastener. I've got them in a couple different sizes and they're quite handy.

I think it's just a term rather than a brand name or trademark. They were originally developed by the Cleveland Pneumatic Tool Company (hence Cle Co - a bit catchier than "clepnetoco" which we might have gotten stuck with).

[DeMac]

Thanks for the history on Cleveland Co., Musigenesis. . lnteresting info, to me.



I actually have Clepnetoco. I rub a medicated creme on it.

[rossvtaylor]

Thanks for the etymology background! Very interesting. There are lots of names which could have been worse. My favorite being Canola Oil (reported to be a contraction of Canada or Canadian Oil) instead of naming it after the seeds of the rapeseed plant. But during my work in Japan, it made me chuckle and cringe a bit to see their bottles are still labeled rapeseed oil.

And now we're way off topic...but it's an old contentious thread anyway which, hopefully, will fade away again.