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06-10-2019, 07:43 AM
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#21
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,264
Year: 2001
Coachwork: Blue Bird
Chassis: IH
Engine: T444E
Rated Cap: 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
The rib is a single piece of hat channel material that forms both walls and the ceiling.
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True on Bluebirds. Carpenter buses had separate wall/roof channels.
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06-10-2019, 07:49 AM
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#22
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7,030
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur
True on Bluebirds. Carpenter buses had separate wall/roof channels.
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Good ol' Carpenters: https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/artic...r-school-buses
Note that these were buses assembled (presumably) by professional welders working in factory conditions.
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06-10-2019, 07:51 AM
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#23
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7,030
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB
Bluebird commercial buses and Wanderlodges have half the ribs of the vastly overbuilt school bus.
The timidness of this forum is palpable.
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How do you get from "I am also not anti-roof raise, I just don't think people should be expecting their raised buses to be as structurally strong as they were before the modification." to "timidness"?
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06-10-2019, 08:39 AM
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#24
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,829
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
How do you get from "I am also not anti-roof raise, I just don't think people should be expecting their raised buses to be as structurally strong as they were before the modification." to "timidness"?
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It wasn't anything personal toward anyone.
Its just that folks who haven't cut a bus apart tend to be very timid and worried about such endeavors. These discussions come up pretty regularly.
The structural integrity of a school bus is beyond overkill. They're protecting a unique cargo though. Since the kind of folks with kids tend to sue a whole lot they build the buses beyond what any other vehicle would be.
That said- half the roof raises I see make me cringe.
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06-10-2019, 09:11 AM
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#25
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Spring Valley AZ
Posts: 1,343
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Bluebird
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 2 elderly children, 1 cat
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__________________
Don, Mary and Spooky the cat.
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06-10-2019, 09:19 AM
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#26
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,829
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kool4skool
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That bus and its occupants would be in trouble whether or not the roof is raised.
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06-10-2019, 10:03 AM
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#27
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 1,413
Year: 2001
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Thomas
Engine: CAT 3126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB
Since the kind of folks with kids tend to sue a whole lot they build the buses beyond what any other vehicle would be.
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I feel like that’s a pretty cynical way to look at it. The protection of children is one of the core values of our society and no law suit winnings will replace a lost life.
I seriously doubt parents are more litigious than anyone else.
Maybe that’s not what you were trying to imply, but it kind of struck a raw nerve.
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06-10-2019, 10:15 AM
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#28
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Eustis FLORIDA
Posts: 23,829
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david.dgeorge07
I feel like that’s a pretty cynical way to look at it. The protection of children is one of the core values of our society and no law suit winnings will replace a lost life.
I seriously doubt parents are more litigious than anyone else.
Maybe that’s not what you were trying to imply, but it kind of struck a raw nerve.
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well- Parents are much more litigious when it comes to school boards!
As a non-parent I can't think of any reason to sue a school about bus safety.
LOL at my google search... It brought up a wiki of "how to sue a school"
https://www.wikihow.com/Sue-a-School
School supreintendents association article about lawsuits-
http://www.aasa.org/SchoolAdministra...e.aspx?id=6506
Quote:
By the very nature of our business, public education is, without a doubt, vulnerable to legal attacks: Title VII, Title IX, claims under the Conscientious Employee Protection Act, allegations of employee/student misconduct, bullying, discrimination, etc. The fear of being sued has forced public school teachers and administrators across the country to re-evaluate what they do and modify traditional curricular activities and co-curricular programs. It’s simply easier and certainly less expensive to modify or eliminate programs than to have to deal with the worry of lengthy litigation.
When our district’s legal expenses topped $500,000 during the 2003-2004 school year, Freehold Regional High School District administrators and board of education members agreed something had to be done. The number of lawsuits, the amount of administrative/staff time preparing for and appearing in the courtroom and subsequent expenses were unacceptable. These lawsuits were taking public money and valuable time away from our students. Thus began the development of a pro-active action plan that resulted in a significant reduction of new litigation and lowered our legal expenses by almost 40 percent after three years.
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06-10-2019, 10:21 AM
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#29
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Spring Valley AZ
Posts: 1,343
Year: 2000
Coachwork: Bluebird
Engine: 5.9 Cummins
Rated Cap: 2 elderly children, 1 cat
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Didn't take long.
I'm out..
Mary and I are going camping, see ya. Be careful out there.
__________________
Don, Mary and Spooky the cat.
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06-10-2019, 12:23 PM
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#30
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 6,402
Year: 2002
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: All American RE (A3RE)
Engine: Cummins ISC (8.3)
Rated Cap: 72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleddgracer
lets just say, 'there is less work in doing a roof raise in a tour bus'
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No doubt!
My first bus was an Eagle 10. I have spent 3x the hours on my Bluebird raise than I did on my Eagle....
Still worth the effort.
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06-10-2019, 01:49 PM
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#31
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
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Professional only in the fact they get paid for what they do. Some of the welds in my bus were accomplished by less than talented welders.
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06-10-2019, 01:55 PM
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#32
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kool4skool
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I wonder how accurate their statement of "No 2 Bluebirds are the same" is? Surely a school buying a fleet of buses isn't going to get 20 buses that are all different.
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06-10-2019, 01:57 PM
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#33
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Dawsonville, Ga.
Posts: 10,482
Year: 1999
Coachwork: Genesis
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466/3060
Rated Cap: 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
How do you get from "I am also not anti-roof raise, I just don't think people should be expecting their raised buses to be as structurally strong as they were before the modification." to "timidness"?
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What are you basing your theory on when you admit there is no data out there to back up your claim of a raise not being as structurally strong as before. It may in fact be stronger.
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06-10-2019, 02:27 PM
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#34
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Bus Geek
Join Date: May 2014
Location: West Ohio
Posts: 3,829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB
It wasn't anything personal toward anyone.
Its just that folks who haven't cut a bus apart tend to be very timid and worried about such endeavors. These discussions come up pretty regularly.
The structural integrity of a school bus is beyond overkill. They're protecting a unique cargo though. Since the kind of folks with kids tend to sue a whole lot they build the buses beyond what any other vehicle would be.
That said- half the roof raises I see make me cringe.
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My thoughts exactly.
School buses are way over built because they have to be. I've yet to see a roof raise on a bus that I felt didn't compromise the original structure even slightly.
Is that an issue? Not necessarily. A lot of roof raises on here are vastly better then stick/staple/and glued rv's that run down the road every day without issue.
But with all that said, No roof raise will be stronger then the original. If the joint section you put in is stronger then the parent meterial, it will stress what's next to it. And any riveted skin on a bus is a part of the structure of the bus. You have to be a group of seasoned engineers with crash test experience to say anything for certain, and I'm just a dumb mechanic.
But what I do know, is that some buses had a high headroom option, so if you're a taller individual, buy one of them instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by david.dgeorge07
I feel like that’s a pretty cynical way to look at it. The protection of children is one of the core values of our society and no law suit winnings will replace a lost life.
I seriously doubt parents are more litigious than anyone else.
Maybe that’s not what you were trying to imply, but it kind of struck a raw nerve.
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Sorry that it struck you that way. You're 100% right that no money will replace a lost life, but I think he's right. I'd bet money that the number of ambulance chasers for a school bus crash is way higher then any other scenario. Why? Passionate parents who will spare no expense coupled with a school district that has cash. Even if they lose the case, they're still going to get paid. That's the cold reality of the society we live in.
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06-15-2019, 04:44 PM
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#35
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Mini-Skoolie
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Washoe Valley, NV
Posts: 16
Year: 1998
Coachwork: International Genesis
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 84
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After listening to the pros and cons and various positions regarding roof raises and their inherent safely or lack there of, I have decided the best coarse of action is to leave the roof alone and have my legs shorten instead.
Wonder if Costco jeans come in a 36 x 22 ?
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06-15-2019, 05:30 PM
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#36
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Bus Nut
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wright City MO
Posts: 280
Year: 1998
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: Bluebird
Engine: 5.9 Cummins/Allison
Rated Cap: 74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
A central part of a school bus body's integrity is the ribs forming the walls and roof, bent from single pieces of homogenous hat channel material. A roof raise cuts these ribs in two places, and even the best-quality welding and bolting of the rib extenders will still concentrate stresses at those cuts (even if the welds and extenders are stronger than the channel material this will happen) making them prone to fail.
I am also not anti-roof raise, I just don't think people should be expecting their raised buses to be as structurally strong as they were before the modification. Just don't ride in the back of the damn things.
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The only way they would be prone to failure is in a catastrophic situation the way you speak it would be failure prone just using the unit in everyday use I also disagree that any extending of the the hat channels would automatically weaken them, depending on the materials and the processes used the addition could easily be as strong or stronger and as functional or more functional as the original piece. Gene
__________________
Its hard to be wrong when you live in Wright City!
There is no mechanical problem that cannot be overcome by a skillfully applied combination of brute force and ignorance!
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06-15-2019, 05:57 PM
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#37
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
Posts: 2,265
Year: 1975
Coachwork: Chevy
Chassis: 8 window
Engine: 454 LS7
Rated Cap: 24,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
A central part of a school bus body's integrity is the ribs forming the walls and roof, bent from single pieces of homogenous hat channel material. A roof raise cuts these ribs in two places, and even the best-quality welding and bolting of the rib extenders will still concentrate stresses at those cuts (even if the welds and extenders are stronger than the channel material this will happen) making them prone to fail.
I am also not anti-roof raise, I just don't think people should be expecting their raised buses to be as structurally strong as they were before the modification. Just don't ride in the back of the damn things.
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I take it you would feel safer riding in a sticks and staples, $100,000 motorhome than a skoolie conversion that may or may not have the same structural protection of a school bus fresh off the assembly line? - IMO, a carefully done by an amateur roof raise would be a far safer MH to ride in than the above mention sticks and staples MH
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06-15-2019, 06:48 PM
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#38
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7,030
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleddgracer
I take it you would feel safer riding in a sticks and staples, $100,000 motorhome than a skoolie conversion that may or may not have the same structural protection of a school bus fresh off the assembly line? - IMO, a carefully done by an amateur roof raise would be a far safer MH to ride in than the above mention sticks and staples MH
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People are putting a lot of words into my mouth on this thread. I never said a thing about motor homes or RVs - the issue at hand is the structural integrity of skoolie roof raises, and RV construction methods don't enter into that.
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06-15-2019, 06:54 PM
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#39
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Bus Geek
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 7,030
Year: 2003
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE 300
Engine: DT466e
Rated Cap: 65C-43A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdog 5651
The only way they would be prone to failure is in a catastrophic situation the way you speak it would be failure prone just using the unit in everyday use I also disagree that any extending of the the hat channels would automatically weaken them, depending on the materials and the processes used the addition could easily be as strong or stronger and as functional or more functional as the original piece. Gene
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I thought I was clear about this but I guess not. In the absence of an accident where the bus rolls over, pretty much any roof raise method will hold together (although I have seen a few that seem like they'll start to break apart after a couple hundred miles of driving). When I talk about "prone to fail" I mean prone to fail in the case of a rollover accident.
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06-15-2019, 06:59 PM
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#40
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Bus Crazy
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: south east BC, close to the Canadian/US border
Posts: 2,265
Year: 1975
Coachwork: Chevy
Chassis: 8 window
Engine: 454 LS7
Rated Cap: 24,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis
People are putting a lot of words into my mouth on this thread. I never said a thing about motor homes or RVs - the issue at hand is the structural integrity of skoolie roof raises, and RV construction methods don't enter into that.
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you have condemned roof raises in your comments - my point is that you are overstating the risk and even an amateur roof raise done with a bit of care is still safer than campers, trailers, and motorhomes marketed today - perhaps it is slightly less safe in a rollover than an unconverted school bus and perhaps not - but it's still very safe - I think taking the ceiling and wall skins off make a bigger difference to structural integrity than a roof raise
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