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Old 03-06-2023, 11:10 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Some tidbits that will save you money

If you have a dt466, or are thinking about buying one, I just want you to know that it is a good engine, but thereís something you need to know. The 466 is a wet sleeve design, which means that the cylinder wall is a removable tube. It allows in-frame rebuilds very cool but there is a price. They need to be constantly run, or the tube seals dry out and cause premature failureÖaka need to be rebuilt. Iím guessing that means run it once a week if itís sitting!!!

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Old 03-07-2023, 01:17 PM   #2
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They don't need to be constantly ran. The o-rings aren't a permanent thing and are going to fail with time regardless if you run it weekly. I suggest not starting or running your bus unless it is going to be driven. Too many skoolies think starting and running a bus weekly is some benefit when in reality it is a detriment to engine life. Rings will scuff due to prolonged idling, and the oil never gets warm enough to evaporate the moisture in it.

If you're not going to drive it under a load, don't start it. If it's going to sit a while and you're worried about batteries dying, remove them and place them on a tender.
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Old 03-07-2023, 02:29 PM   #3
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I'd be really hard pressed to see how running a wet sleeve engine, like these or the 92-series Detroits or any others, would make a difference on when the o-rings dry out. The cylinder sleeves are surrounded by coolant whether the engine is running or not...the only difference being that when running the coolant is circulating. But the coolant isn't going to locations which would otherwise be dry. Maybe I'm missing something here?

I'm with Booyah on the "run it to hot" caution, which I learned as an aircraft owner from all the mechanics. It's common for a new owner (me too, at one time) to believe they should start up their plane and run it for a while even if they weren't flying. But the most experienced authorities in aviation suggest that this is not good, as (like Boo says) the engine doesn't get hot enough to rid the engine of moisture. I will try to find Mike Busch's explanation of this sometime, to share.

EDIT to add some notes from the aviation world on engine care:

Part of the point of the ground run is to drive off water that has condensed in your oil -- oil is good for metal parts, and water is bad for them.
If you don't get the engine oil up to normal middle-of-the-green-arc temperatures and keep it there for a good while (20-30 minutes at least) you may not be driving out the water, which can lead to a very unhappy engine. If you don't get the oil up to operating temperature long enough you may wind up doing more harm than good! Combustion blow-by leaking around the piston rings contains water (and a bunch of other corrosive things your engine doesn't like), and really short ground runs that don't bring the engine to temperature are mainly just causing wear from the startup and dumping these nasty things into your oil. Your engine is not going to like that.


And another source:

Ground running your engine is not good for it.

The objective is to get the oil hot enough to boil off any acidic water created by exhaust gas blow by (exhaust gas leaking around the piston rings and ending up in the crank case). The oil temp should get up to 180 degrees (measured at the temperature sensor) which means it is much hotter down in the bearings etc. so the water is vaporized. You can't do this on the ground without getting your cylinders too hot! The only solution to this dilemma is to fly the plane whenever possible in the winter.


So, it sounds like if you're going to start your bus you should go fly it!
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:32 AM   #4
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I definitely run my bus once a month to keep all the seals good. I have only had to replace one one six years.
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Old 03-08-2023, 02:34 AM   #5
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And idling up stops diesels from having premature wear from lack of oil, thanks for bringing that up.
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Old 03-08-2023, 06:40 AM   #6
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This brings up a question in my mind, about these O rings. Is this something that fails catastrophically or are there warning signs, leaks, etc? Oil analysis on my engine turned up good (little high in silicates though). Would an oil analysis even show signs on wear on these seals? I've had at least one overheating event and I know that's bad juju for the liner seals....but just how bad?
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Old 03-08-2023, 06:53 AM   #7
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And idling up stops diesels from having premature wear from lack of oil, thanks for bringing that up.
Do you have a source or reference for this? It might be the case, and I'd love to learn new stuff, but everything I've read or seen says that idling (at least, low speed idling) is one of the worst things for a diesel. I seem to remember something like "an hour of idling causes the same amount of wear as X hours of driving"...in other words, idling actually causes more wear. And if it's a question of letting the engine sit for 3 months, with one start and a drive at the end of this, or starting it every week and idling it (in other words 12 starts with idling time)...then, it seems that the single start would cause the least wear.

EDIT to add a note: If you want to start your diesel every week and idle it, go for it. It's not my intention to convince you or argue with your preferences. I would truly like to read other references about this. One of the things I like about skoolie.net is that it's unlike Facebook, where people just spew opinions anonymously without any references. We get to know each other and we share experience and references to help each other and new folks who might be searching and reading. We may not all agree, but we help each other learn.
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Old 03-08-2023, 08:59 AM   #8
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My DT466 sits for months on end if it's not needed, never starting it except to run it out of the barn occasionally to do some work on it. I have a battery disconnect to keep the batteries from discharging and do charge them every month or so. I also have a manual engine stop so after sitting for a long time I turn it over with the cable pulled out until I get oil pressure then push it in and it fires immediately. If I did get it out to do some work then I drive it a few miles to warm things up. My way of maintaining engine longevity.
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Old 03-08-2023, 12:29 PM   #9
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This brings up a question in my mind, about these O rings. Is this something that fails catastrophically or are there warning signs, leaks, etc? Oil analysis on my engine turned up good (little high in silicates though). Would an oil analysis even show signs on wear on these seals? I've had at least one overheating event and I know that's bad juju for the liner seals....but just how bad?
When they start to fail due to age, they'll slowly and progressively weep more coolant into the oil. We're talking very small amounts that won't even discolor the oil or raise it's level. However, that small amount will show up on an oil sample analysis, so if you're worried about it, continue to do the samples.

Silicon isn't a representative of only coolant, it can also come from the engine oil itself or from a bad air filter. If you're seeing elevated levels of sodium, that's where I'd get cautious.

When you say catastrophically fail, my mind goes to overheating, and that will show up as oil mixed, raised oil levels, and even a visible trace of coolant that can be seen with the oil pan off. How bad an overheat hurts the o-rings depends on how new/healthy they were to begin with and how badly you overheated it.
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Old 03-08-2023, 12:40 PM   #10
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Jimmy649, your recommendation goes against what nearly every professional mechanic/engineer/etc. recommends doing. You want to do it, that's fine as it's your bus, but don't share this as advice or a way to save money when it's actually the opposite.

There is no need to idle a bus weekly for the seals or "to keep things good". Doing so actually increases wear, is harmful to the oil, is a waste of fuel, and is just all around unnecessary. If you're worried about the batteries draining, remove them or charge them. As far as the engine is concerned, you'll do more harm then good starting it weekly.
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Old 03-08-2023, 04:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
Jimmy649, your recommendation goes against what nearly every professional mechanic/engineer/etc. recommends doing. You want to do it, that's fine as it's your bus, but don't share this as advice or a way to save money when it's actually the opposite.

There is no need to idle a bus weekly for the seals or "to keep things good". Doing so actually increases wear, is harmful to the oil, is a waste of fuel, and is just all around unnecessary. If you're worried about the batteries draining, remove them or charge them. As far as the engine is concerned, you'll do more harm then good starting it weekly.
I tried to thank you but apparently I've thanked you too much already!
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:36 PM   #12
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Usually when you find failed liner seals you find pitting in the seal area of the liner or block bore. Most of the time this is caused by improper maintenance of the antifreeze. Antifreeze in a linered diesel has to be maintained in a certain PH range. Just looking to see if it is a certain color means nothing.

Any good parts stores will have PH strips for antifreeze. They might even have the booster chemical also. Any over the road truck shop should have it in stock.
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Old 03-11-2023, 10:32 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Booyah45828;488815]Jimmy649, your recommendation goes against what nearly every professional mechanic/engineer/etc. recommends doing. You want to do it, that's fine as it's your bus, but don't share this as advice or a way to save money when it's actually the opposite.

There is no need to idle a bus weekly for the seals or "to keep things good". Doing so actually increases wear, is harmful to the oil, is a waste of fuel, and is just all around unnecessary. If you're worried about the batteries draining, remove them or charge them. As far as the engine is concerned, you'll do more harm then good starting it weekly.[/QUOTE

Iím just relaying info from industry knowledge. Dt466ís are vulnerable if they just sit all the time
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Old 03-12-2023, 07:29 AM   #14
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Iím just relaying info from industry knowledge. Dt466ís are vulnerable if they just sit all the time
Please share a source for this "industry knowledge" so we can all learn.
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Old 03-21-2023, 08:43 PM   #15
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I thought I'd share some industry knowledge:

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Old 03-21-2023, 10:24 PM   #16
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Just stuff I learned as a trucker on how to treat diesel engines, and schooler info Iíve gleaned throughout the years. You can take it or leave it, i donít care. One thing I know for sure is that both the dt466 and the t444e have expensive timing chain covers that extend to the front part of the engine where the oil pan attaches and are expensive to replace. I got the Dorman kit replacement. Junk, absolute junk. I had to take it to an aluminum welder to get repaired before I installed it.
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Old 03-21-2023, 11:28 PM   #17
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Just stuff I learned as a trucker on how to treat diesel engines, and schooler info Iíve gleaned throughout the years. You can take it or leave it, i donít care.
With respect you you, I'll leave it.

This isn't Facebook and I like to think the level of information that visitors can find here is of higher quality, and more likely to be accurate, than what they'll find in social media groups. There's some amazing expertise here and folks we've collectively learned to trust. I won't name names, for fear of leaving people out...but there's a guy who could probably build an AC unit out of paper towel tubes and a Slinky. There's a guy who I'd believe if he said I should drain my 2-stroke Detroit oil and replace it with tomato juice. There are guys here who work on diesels every day, some who build their own BMS or telecom units from old transistor radios, and all kinds of expertise. And some are just expert nomads. They built their credibility with demonstrated accuracy over time or with supporting evidence. I learn a lot here. And in my video, I readily admit that I once thought starting an engine regularly was good for it...but I was wrong.

In the hope that visitors the the forums will get the best possible information, don't be offended if we ask for some supporting evidence if you offer opinions that are unique. Over time, as we learn more about you and see the demonstrated accuracy of your input, the calls for supporting evidence or links will diminish. But even the "old timers" here tend to provide links, unasked, because it builds trust. It's part of what makes this forum better and more reliable than Facebook skoolie groups.
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Old 03-21-2023, 11:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rossvtaylor View Post
With respect you you, I'll leave it.

This isn't Facebook and I like to think the level of information that visitors can find here is of higher quality, and more likely to be accurate, than what they'll find in social media groups. There's some amazing expertise here and folks we've collectively learned to trust. I won't name names, for fear of leaving people out...but there's a guy who could probably build an AC unit out of paper towel tubes and a Slinky. There's a guy who I'd believe if he said I should drain my 2-stroke Detroit oil and replace it with tomato juice. There are guys here who work on diesels every day, some who build their own BMS or telecom units from old transistor radios, and all kinds of expertise. And some are just expert nomads. They built their credibility with demonstrated accuracy over time or with supporting evidence. I learn a lot here. And in my video, I readily admit that I once thought starting an engine regularly was good for it...but I was wrong.

In the hope that visitors the the forums will get the best possible information, don't be offended if we ask for some supporting evidence if you offer opinions that are unique. Over time, as we learn more about you and see the demonstrated accuracy of your input, the calls for supporting evidence or links will diminish. But even the "old timers" here tend to provide links, unasked, because it builds trust. It's part of what makes this forum better and more reliable than Facebook skoolie groups.
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Old 03-22-2023, 08:58 AM   #19
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I thought I'd share some industry knowledge:

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Old 03-22-2023, 05:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
They don't need to be constantly ran. The o-rings aren't a permanent thing and are going to fail with time regardless if you run it weekly. I suggest not starting or running your bus unless it is going to be driven. Too many skoolies think starting and running a bus weekly is some benefit when in reality it is a detriment to engine life. Rings will scuff due to prolonged idling, and the oil never gets warm enough to evaporate the moisture in it.

If you're not going to drive it under a load, don't start it. If it's going to sit a while and you're worried about batteries dying, remove them and place them on a tender.
Only if you donít know how to idle upÖlike 900-1200 rpm
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