T444e Wiring Problem

[TurtleHome]

I have a no start, starter cranks but no start, with an engine that has been sitting for 3 years. In every other situation with our bus, whether a build-out question or an engine problem I have found helpful info and solutions on this forum. Thank you, BTW, it is great encouragement and fun to hear the stories and see the struggles and progress everyone shares. But, alas, I am stuck. So here goes with the story.

This is an early 1997 T444e so it is a “3-Box”, Allison AT-545. International/Blue Bird. It was an 11 window, 66 passenger. My wife and I live in the bus full time in the NW Houston Area. We have completed the build-out (almost-is it ever really finished), and have it parked on a commercial property where we are the nighttime security. When the bus wouldn't start one time I decided to wait a few days to get it running. Life happens...so 3 years latter…we are having to move and I must get it running. At some point, probably about a year ago (though you can tell my estimate of time is in question) field mice made a nest in the engine, battery compartment, tail pipe, etc. and for a few weeks we had a running feud with them. They never got into our living quarters and we finally eliminated them, from the bus anyway, and removed all of the nests. I could see some damaged insulation on firewall, some chewed rubber around the air intake and some wires that had been chewed but only found one that was cut all the way through.

We purchased the bus in 2015, put about 2000 miles on it and then moved to our current location. Before moving I had to replace a Cam Position Sensor that caused a no start. Otherwise, it has always started easily, with in 2 to 3 seconds of turning the key after wait-to-start light goes out. I either charge the start batteries every-so-often or have had a battery tender on them. Before the last no start, I'm guessing 3 years ago, I would start the bus every 3 or 4 months and drive it up and down our road or go get fuel to get it good and warm and then park again. So, fuel tank is full and has been since no start.

So, about 3 months ago, I tried to start the bus in preparation to move and starter turns strong but no start. I thought it was “obviously” some wire problem from the mice so I fixed a couple of questionable wires, re-cleaned any debris left from the mice, removed a couple of mud dabber nests and no start. Then I started in a list of doing things that were typical problems with a T444e in a random and haphazard manner, frantic would be a better term, since we were being pressured to move since the property we are on was being sold. I was convinced the problem was not a big deal (i.e. replace computer/s, rebuild engine, etc.) so I decided to take the time to become more educated and learn how and why the T444e works. It took some time, a lot of time, but I feel I have a pretty good handle on what goes on under the hood of this particular bus. SO, I either know what I'm talking about now or I'm just dangerous because I THINK I know what's going on.

Anyway, I think I still have a wire problem. Either a short to ground or a bad ground on some circuit somewhere. I am going to list all of the things that I have done, or that have changed since the bus last started, but there are 2 main questions I need help with:

Is it worth taking apart the whole wiring harness to visually inspect every wire? Will that help find the problem or can that only be done with a break-out box or testing each individual wire?

HERE is a list of things I have done recently in an attempt to start the bus:
Changed Engine Oil. Even though I couldn't start bus, drained oil, changed filter, drained HPOP reservoir, refilled HPOP, refilled oil though filler cap, after several attempts to start (starter running 20-30 sec) checked oil level and topped off, HPOP is still full of oil.
Changed Fuel filters, both main fuel/water separator and strainer in fuel inlet. Fuel looks and smells good. Filters filled up and have 20 psi at Schrader valve with starter running.
Replaced CPS, twice-second one from International, first one from Generic Auto Parts. I am getting RPM when starting.
Replaced IPR. From International. Connector was questionable so re-built and replaced some of the wire leading to IPR. I am getting IPR Pressure while starter running.
Replaced IPC with one from Auto Parts and then switched back to original one.
THEN, I started in with some more methodical items:

Read Flash Codes from Dash lights:
253 ECM/IDM Fuel Injection Sync Circuit-OCC Test Failure
242 ECM/IDM Fuel Demand Command Signal-OCC Test Failure
251 GPS Glow Plug Controller-OCC Test Failure
543 ECM/IDM IDM Faults not received

My conclusion after reading all of the info I could find on these is that the signals couldn't communicate, usually because of bad wires. And that the computers probably weren't bad since there weren't other codes. The Glow Plug relay is not working. The wait-to-start light has always come on when key first turned on and the bus has always started easily. I recently read the light is not necessarily timed with the actual glow plugs so I don't know if the GP have ever worked. At least I know it would not cause a no start in 80 degree weather. Unless the GP circuit has something to do with the injector circuit, other than running in the same race and bundle to the injectors, I don't think this is a cause of the no start. I have not removed the valve covers to inspect wiring but since mice could not get to that I'm leaving that until last.

So, if you're still with me, I continued. Replaced Both Start Batteries. Since every thread about hard or no start says to make sure batteries are good, I replaced them and fully charged them prior to trying to start bus. 2 Group 31 with threaded posts in parallel for 12v and 1900 cca. With Starter Cranking Voltage goes from 12.9 to 11.1 volts. Old batteries were 12.9 to 10 volts. Didn't seem to make a difference so now I have some good house batteries to play with.
Checked some of the typical areas for wiring problems. Fuses at batteries for ECM and IDM. Fuses in dash for ECM and DIAG. Wiring from battery to ECM and IDM. Wiring cluster under Oil Filter by the Transmission on Drivers side of engine. Connections at Starter. Ground and Hot leads at ECM/IDM. And I found 2 connectors with corrosion. They were the 2 large Weatherpac Style plugs with purple and white wires from battery fuses to ECM and IDM. I cleaned them, used a little dielectric grease. NO start. Removed and cleaned all of the other ground and hot leads I could see at those other locations and used dielectric grease to re-install. NO Start.

Then I found a diagnostic PDF on line from International. It's labeled EGES-125-1. It takes some deciphering because apparently they scanned it to put online. The scanner had a little trouble and made it as much of a puzzle as a tool. Not being familiar with all of the acronyms and names of things it is challenging. But, again, with help from this forum and threads that have some pictures in them I was able to identify some of the suspect wires. Basically after reviewing the wires from the EDM to the IDM that carry the suspect signals I was able to follow some of the diagrams to a conclusion of “locate short to ground in any circuit and repair” or “locate open in ground circuit and repair”. Since I don't have a wiring diagram with all wire labels I'm back to square one...find the wire.

So then I decided I needed to do a buzz test on the injectors to see if it might be that the IDM was bad after all. I figured it would be about $500 to tow the bus to the new location or $500 to tow to International and get diagnostics without repairs. So I decided to spend a little more and get the J-1708 interface similar to the Nexiq USB-2 and the free Service Maxx Software from International. I ended up with one from Diesel Laptops, it was a little cheaper than the Nexiq and they also had the software as a download. So now I have a lot more information, but still no info as to what wires to check. I can't see where, or don't understand how to get the software to do a buzz test. And I can't get it to do a “wiggle” test. If anyone has instructions for the Software that would help. I can only find instructions for the newer versions of ServiceMaxx and that says the buzz and wiggle are part of the advanced software only dealers have. Since you can't always believe anything you read I need advice on this.

HERE are some pieces of info that might be relevant:
While starter is cranking for 20 to 30 seconds at a time I get the following readings:
Battery Voltage: 11.1 Off is 12.9
Engine Oil Pressure: 39 psi
Injector Control Pressure: 600-700 for a few seconds then jumps to 3,060 psi
Engine RPM: 168-176
Fuel Pressure at Schrader Valve: 20 psi (reading from gauge not computer)
Also:
60 gallon Fuel Tank is full. Used diesel conditioner when filled tank.
Using a Scan Gauge D hooked to diagnostic port to confirm gauges, before ServiceMaxx.
Coolant level OK. Have not had any leaks or problems overheating in the past.
Transmission fluid level OK.

If you made it this far you should get a reward...Many thanks.
So in review...Tear apart wire harness? Anybody have wire and pin number scheme? Can anybody help with J-1708 ServiceMaxx Software? OR, can it be something else I'm missing just because I think the mice did it...?

[Oldyeller]

Do you have a copy of EGED-130 T444e hard start/no start diagnostics manual?

Edited to add:

If not here is a link to it. See if it works. It just worked for me and I downloaded the manual. It gives you chapter and verse for the 1997 T444e, all the test procedures you would need.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...NXFx-aO0oAZThU

[TurtleHome]

I guess not. The one I have is EGS-125-1. It's a diagnostic manual not the no/hard start. It's it available online?

[TurtleHome]

Thanks Old Yeller. I downloaded this and it is the same as the one I have labeled EGES-125-1. It looks like EGES-130 is just the one page form a tech uses to follow the procedures in 125. Because the scanned copy I have downloaded is so bad it is extremely hard to follow, however, I have done just about all I can do in the flow charts except until I get to the steps using a break-out box--which I don't have. I also am muddled as to how to get the ServiceMaxx software to do a buzz test or "wiggle" test. Which are the next steps in the diagnosis.

I was hoping the wiggle test would save me and give me a clue in which harness my problem was but I have been unsuccessful.

[HamSkoolie]

1 - STOP THROWING PARTS AT IT - This often creates additional faults which then serve to hide when you correct the original problem. It is a BASIC TENANT of troubleshooting.


2 - I'm not sure you have sufficient RPM to start. There is a specification and if it doesn't hit that specified RPM or higher the ECM will not allow the engine to fire. As I said, I'm not sure as I can't remember the minimum RPM but I'm sure someone will come along or perhaps you can do a quick search of the forum, I know the number is mentioned a number of times.

However, I don't think this would be the only issue due to the next item.



3 - Considering the long sit time and the rodent issues, you may very well have multiple problems. The codes would indicate wiring issues.... the rodents make that a stronger possibility.

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by TurtleHome

Thanks Old Yeller. I downloaded this and it is the same as the one I have labeled EGES-125-1. It looks like EGES-130 is just the one page form a tech uses to follow the procedures in 125. Because the scanned copy I have downloaded is so bad it is extremely hard to follow, however, I have done just about all I can do in the flow charts except until I get to the steps using a break-out box--which I don't have. I also am muddled as to how to get the ServiceMaxx software to do a buzz test or "wiggle" test. Which are the next steps in the diagnosis.

I was hoping the wiggle test would save me and give me a clue in which harness my problem was but I have been unsuccessful.

I noticed the discrepancy in the manual numbering as well, it's the same manual.

I don't know exactly what part of the manual you've been working with but please note that the table or chart with the tests shown are followed by a large section of the manual which elaborates on those tests. You have those sections in the full manual you downloaded. I noticed the chart quality sucks in the manual I linked for you but I have a copy of just the chart and following sections and the chart (it's in PDF format) is good enough to enlarge so you can read it. Let me know if getting that to you might help.

I've had a no start situation 2 or 3 times that forced me to find this diagnostic stuff but in the end my situations were easy, one time low battery voltage and another the fuel filter housing had leaked down. I studied the chart and following text explanations but didn't end up needing to trouble shoot to that extent. One thing I did notice because it WAS relevant to 1 of my situations is the minimum voltage requirement mentioned several times in the chart and related text, 7 volts to the computer if I recall correctly. The engine can turn over but the computer not see 7 volts and you won't start.

Also you can find videos about performing the injector buzz test on YouTube if you haven't discovered them yet. There are several channels that focus a lot on the 7.3.

[TurtleHome]

1. Yes, I know, thanks for the reminder. I'm so convinced it's something little and simple that I started rather hap-hazzardly. I'm over it and started keeping track of anything I did to go back to if necessary.

2. I've seen engine RPM from 150-350 as required to start but nothing official. I'll keep looking for that. I'm afraid to ask what might be keeping it from turning fast enough...

3. If nothing turns up today I'm going to start dismantling the wire harness from front of engine back to computers for visual damage that may be concealed by the plastic covers.

[TurtleHome]

OK, thanks OY. I'll check out YouTube for the buzz test and see if I can read voltage while starting in the power from battery to ECM and ICM. It "seems" to be ok because my main voltage at bat stays above 11v but I will put a meter on it separately when I have my helper back in few minutes.

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by TurtleHome

OK, thanks OY. I'll check out YouTube for the buzz test and see if I can read voltage while starting in the power from battery to ECM and ICM. It "seems" to be ok because my main voltage at bat stays above 11v but I will put a meter on it separately when I have my helper back in few minutes.

Not sure if you saw it but the chart gives you connector pin numbers for reading voltage, for instance, to fire the injectors among other things.

[BFlinn181]

Have you tested to see if fuel is getting to the engine? Many things could stop fuel flow, check by cranking the engine with fuel connection open to check flow. Filter clogged, bad fuel pump, loss of prime, bad fuel, etc. I'd eliminate those possibilities before blaming it on the wiring harness.

[TurtleHome]

Thanks for responding. Fuel was the first thing I checked since it was sitting so long. Replaced filters, both main and small strainer in inlet. Fuel looked and smelled good. While cranking it filled the bowl and then shows 20psi at Shrader valve which, I think, is normal. The fuel tank was full when last running so I think that saved me. Not much room for moisture, etc,

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by TurtleHome

Thanks for responding. Fuel was the first thing I checked since it was sitting so long. Replaced filters, both main and small strainer in inlet. Fuel looked and smelled good. While cranking it filled the bowl and then shows 20psi at Shrader valve which, I think, is normal. The fuel tank was full when last running so I think that saved me. Not much room for moisture, etc,

Maybe you've been all over this already, if so sorry for hitting it again.

The T444e is a HEUI injection system. You could have good pressure fuel everywhere it needs to be but if the computer isn't signaling the injectors to activate you won't get fuel into the cylinders. That hard start/no start diagnostics manual shows how to test for proper voltage in the necessary systems by connector pin outs.

[KeyWestPirate]

Well,, if you just want to hear the engine run, you can always open some point to the air intake and spray a can of WD40 into the intake while someone cranks it for you. The engine will start and run as long as the can of WD40 lasts.


NOT a solution to your problem,, clearly,, but thought you might like to hear the engine start and run for a few seconds.


We constantly fight mice on our farm in Nicaragua. We use poisoned bait and kill them, but they just keep coming back. It's an ongoing struggle. They are very destructive.


It's instructional information going forward,, thank you. You could build the baited traps like you see around Home Depot (and just about everywhere else).


Put them out when you are going to be parked for a while.


You say that you have fuel to the engine? So, the lift pump is working.

Is there a shutoff valve between your fuel filter and the injector pump? You could hot wire that to see if the engine would run.


If you have fuel to the injector pump, and the engine cranks,, it should start.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by KeyWestPirate

Well,, if you just want to hear the engine run, you can always open some point to the air intake and spray a can of WD40 into the intake while someone cranks it for you. The engine will start and run as long as the can of WD40 lasts.


NOT a solution to your problem,, clearly,, but thought you might like to hear the engine start and run for a few seconds.


We constantly fight mice on our farm in Nicaragua. We use poisoned bait and kill them, but they just keep coming back. It's an ongoing struggle. They are very destructive.


It's instructional information going forward,, thank you. You could build the baited traps like you see around Home Depot (and just about everywhere else).


Put them out when you are going to be parked for a while.


You say that you have fuel to the engine? So, the lift pump is working.

Is there a shutoff valve between your fuel filter and the injector pump? You could hot wire that to see if the engine would run.


If you have fuel to the injector pump, and the engine cranks,, it should start.

WD40, ether etc.. is an EMERGENCY START solution.. theres no fuel timing by running an engine like that.. its pure hell on the engine...

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by KeyWestPirate

We constantly fight mice on our farm in Nicaragua. We use poisoned bait and kill them, but they just keep coming back. It's an ongoing struggle. They are very destructive..

ALL RIGHT, EVERYONE FREEZE! THIS IS A HIJACKING!

I would like to suggest that you rethink this strategy. When you use poisoned bait to kill the mice, the mice run somewhere and die. Then, whatever eats mice will find the dead mouse and think, "Hey, free meal!" then eat the poisoned mouse. This in turn will kill the mouse predator. The mice were programmed by evolution to try to outproduce the many mouse-eating predators so they f*ck like rabbits, and each female mouse makes a new litter every few weeks. The mice don't care that you've killed off all the mouse predators with poison mice, they'll keep up the frantic banging and will soon overwhelm the area with a billion hungry mice and nothing but your poisoned bait to stop them.

A single owl can eat as many as 12 mice per day, but it it's dead that's almost 4400 mice per year not being eaten. A single female mouse can make as many as 60 mice per year, and if you assume each litter makes 6 mice and each litter has 3 females that will also reproduce, that one mouse can be responsible for upwards to 10,000 new mice after one year. So, not killing the predators with poison mice should be your top priority here.

I too have a mouse problem, but my strategy is to kill them using peanut butter in snap traps. It requires that I check the traps daily, but they're easy to control. When I find a dead mouse in a trap, there's a large rock in the field next to my house that I put the bodies on. It's close enough that I don't walk far, but far enough away that snakes won't hang out next to my house looking for more. Because of this I have several rather large, healthy looking owls living nearby, and the dead mice are normally gone within 24hrs. The worst time for me is in the fall when they're looking for a winter nest, but I never see them in the house and my shop may go weeks without seeing a new one whereas when I started this I was carrying 2-3 a day out to the big rock. The owls aren't the only critters around here that eat mice, we also have a ton of other critters snacking down on them. If I were poisoning the predators though, I'd have so many mice running around that the only way to control them would be to nuke them from orbit. It would be the only way to be sure.

Hijack over. Please return to your bacon sandwiches.

[cadillackid]

I just glue trap em.. find em toss em, done!


and I love bacon sandwiches!!

[KeyWestPirate]

Those boxes you see around Home Depot and every where else are designed to permit entry and contain the mouse. Something could be constructed with OSB with a removable lid.


We do everything you mention too. Big snap traps, glue sheets. Some of the rats get big enough to barbecue,, and the Nicaraguans do (eat them).




More thread hijack: Pics of some coffee Shelley roasted today,, and sweet corn coming up. Norman refuses to have anything to do with mice or rats. But the local dogs are terrified of him. He charges them,, swats them on the nose with his claws, and they give him a wide berth



Thanks for the info on the injectors!

[Oldyeller]

Ah yes, from time to time I buy Nicaraguan coffee beans.

I always have 4 or 5 varietals in whole beans on hand. Every morning I blend 4 different varietals and grind them for my morning coffee. For me it's one of life's little pleasures.

[PowerBrapp]

hook me up with your email and i will give you the engine diagnostic manual for your engine.

[PowerBrapp]