The wrong way to do a roof raise...

[TaliaDPerkins]

Plenty of pictures of demolished commercial RVs already on the thread, and of a rolled over schoolbus.



If you're going to imply they are faked -- go for gold and prove it.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by BeNimble

You want to QUOTE WHAT I POSTED?

Post up your crash test data on DIY Motorhome School Bus Conversions.

OK.


"Please don't tell me you think a school bus is safer than a modern F250?"


No question you need/want a strawman argument in your favor...

[BeNimble]

Originally Posted by TomDPerkins

OK.


"Please don't tell me you think a school bus is safer than a modern F250?"


No question you need/want a strawman argument in your favor...

You got a problem about the truth don't you?

Still waiting for you to post the crash test data on DIY Motorhome Converted School Buses.

So you agree a F250 is safer than a DIY Motorhome School Bus..right?
Because that is what I suggested if SAFETY is important.

Oscar asked to move on which I did, but YOU? No you posted again.

Here is RV vs School Bus accident where I live a little while ago. Which one had more damage? Oh that's right, it doesn't matter, one pic is not Federal Test Data. The 'stick-n-staples' just fell apart....Oh the truth hurts doesn't it Tommy

[Oscar1]

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"
BeNimble: there's always a way you can spin any argument, in your chosen pic you have a cutaway van that weighs what? 6500lbs? T-boned by a 20,000? class A with front mount generator straight in to the bus body and yet still looks like a very survivable accident. The cutaway has a floor height of about 19"-20" with a conventional bus floor at 35"-36" and that impact is a walk away.

This bus driver crossed out on to a highway and was T-boned at highway speed by a semi crane truck with a trailer, it appears that they traveled about 300' before stopping in the field. There were no fatalities and only a few injuries requiring a trip to the hospital, I can't imagine a pickup truck surviving that impact the same way.
The argument was rv vs skoolie but you keep bringing up F250 is safer, ok so you prove it. yes F250 front impact airbags win every time over a transit style bus but again floor height could trump airbags, your F250 slamming head on T-bone style into my axle and I walk away, head on in to my engine front transit and you better have airbags you're going to need them, into side or rear of bus and you're potentially going under and getting a hair cut. There are far too many crash variables to say one is safer then the other in every situation but since the original statement that started all this sh*t was rv vs bus I think we can put that one to bed.
Cheers

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by BeNimble

You got a problem about the truth don't you?

When I don't see it, yes.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Still waiting for you to post the crash test data on DIY Motorhome Converted School Buses.

You're the one making the extraordinary, counterfactual claim. You post your data.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

So you agree a F250 is safer than a DIY Motorhome School Bus..right?

Of course. However, I am intelligent and honest enough to know and say that has nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Because that is what I suggested if SAFETY is important.

An F250 can not be converted into an approx 300 sq ft motor home -- so it has no relevance to the matter. You suggested that because you have no point and wanted to obfuscate the issue.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Oscar asked to move on which I did, but YOU? No you posted again.

I don't know Oscar and didn't see that post, and I'm sure I did not agree beforehand that Oscar can speak for me.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Here is RV vs School Bus accident where I live a little while ago. Which one had more damage? Oh that's right, it doesn't matter, one pic is not Federal Test Data. The 'stick-n-staples' just fell apart....Oh the truth hurts doesn't it Tommy

I believe Oscar1 has already demolished the worth of your image to your argument. I need not pile on.


You have presented no evidence that commercial RVs are more safe as motor homes than school bus conversions.

[cadillackid]

Really doesn’t it have a lot to do with conversion quality ? A stick school bus with seats is a safe vehicle everyone can pretty much agree on that . There’s of course very little data to say whether a stock bus with no seats loses any integrity or not.

But a wood stove flying around in a cabin in a for damn sure dangerous.. as is a home frog that’s barely strapped in.. and unfortunately I’ve seen these type builds. The bus itself in those “hippie” builds may stay together but it doesn’t matter what f the bus turns on its side and the occupants are seriously injured from within.

Anyone who has ever driven a coach knows a taller bus takes more skill to drive eso in windy weather or on very curvy roads. More care is necessary. Not rocket science but safety isn’t just about the vehicle itself it’s all encompassing

[DeMac]

In this news story about an F250 vs Conventional bus, in a head on collision, the F250 driver was air evacuated from the scene via life flight. The unbelted students on board, were not injured. I bet the driver of the F250 disagrees with Nimble.

https://dailyjournalonline.com/news/...1ea310cf7.html

Now your turn Nimble. Apples to apples. This F250 theory is loose and unsubstantiated. The interior of the bus might be flopping around and the F250 driver might be drunk.
Statistic rates on deadly crashes, involving DUI F250 drivers, are much higher than death by skoolie interiors. That model truck kills more Americans than all models of bus combined.

Try searching "dui"+"F250"+"death"
there are many in prison for killing, using an F250, while dui. NOT Safer.

[musigenesis]

Just for discussion, here are some stats on accidents involving school buses over the last decade or so. It's interesting that death is way more likely for the occupants of other vehicles (and pedestrians and bicyclists), even more so than these raw numbers suggest since school buses are likely to be carrying a lot more passengers. Also interesting that the number of deaths for drivers is roughly the same as the number for passengers, which suggests that school buses are a lot less safe for drivers than passengers (since the number of passengers is much larger than the number of drivers), something I've read elsewhere but not with any numbers to back it up.

[joeblack5]

Wow, this is getting a real sad discussion. Amazing how things get twisted to keep supporting their point of view.

I am really surprised by this safety view... It always comes down to safe for who?
Lately we have invented the Amerika first line.
That was already obvious with people finding it important to buy huge cars so that they can protect THEIR kids. Nobody seems to care about the other side of the accident. As usual short sighted and somewhat selfish.

The only ones holding the data about the bus safety are the insurance companies. Premiums are going up and insurance is harder to get.
For intended purpose an f250 is safer for society then a schoolbus for recreational use. Hence the premium is lower, as it should be.

The skoolie thing did not start because of safety or high quality. It started because it was cheap. With cheap comes disrespect for maintenance and lack of training to drive a large chunk of steel around.

Our world has becomes less safe because of unqualified people driving converted school buses.

Although the laws have not caught up yet, like they have done in most countries, the insurance companies did. It is about money after all.

So for that matter it would be a lot better if more people would stick with their f250 and pull a travel trailer.

Over and out,

johan.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

But a wood stove flying around in a cabin in a for damn sure dangerous.

Which is why you through bolt it to the frame. If I have through bolted it to the frame, I should pay no more for insurance because of it.

[TaliaDPerkins]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

With cheap comes disrespect for maintenance and lack of training to drive a large chunk of steel around.

Our world has becomes less safe because of unqualified people driving converted school buses.

Some people do inexpensive merely because they are not stupid -- why throw money down you don't have to?


And the proper response is the insurance companies accepting a qualified person's word the conversion was done properly, and that should be about a half day job with an appropriate fee charged once, or, the state "uninsured vehicle" fee which in VA is $500 for a year -- don't be the cause of an accident -- and if people want to call that a loophole, complain to Richmond.

[Sundowner]

Originally Posted by DeMac

Terrifically modified, Sundowner. (I stalked your photos). I love the air intake on the rear roof. Did you delete the lower glass?

The lower windows were removed when I bought the bus in 2001 and are covered with stainless steel. I added an extension to the scoop at rear to get it into the airstream for the radiator.

[BeNimble]

Let's try this again. When someone says "My kids safety is most important"
So they buy an old School Bus to DIY Convert into a motorhome to haul said kids around.
Not a Factory Motorhome because it is made of sticks-n-staples and will fall apart in a wreck. First off they don't make them of sticks-n=staples since the 1980's
They use aluminum tubing and fiberglass. Si whoever says that is already comparing a 1974 motorhome to their old School Bus. They still make sticks-n-staples TRAILERS.

What is safer is having a truck towing a trailer. The trailer has no kids in it. It does not need crash testing. It could be made of peanuts and glue sticks as a matter of kids safety. The truck has people in it. It has crash tests to test how safe they are, because that is what matters. So when "safety is most important" you would get a trailer. Well if safety is your "highest priority", you would not be living in a bus or trailer at all, you would live in a house rather than living on a freeway, and when you travel you would take an airplane. But that is going to far for safety.

With that settled, we can ask is a steel school bus safer than an aluminum-n-fiberglass motorhome? A steel school bus is very top heavy. They are prone to tipping over. You see this again and again they tip over when in accidents. This is just straight physics, the same physics used to say they are safer because they are made of steel.
Now let's take that top heavy bus and raise that heavy roof 24 inches. Safer?
And now add a rooftop deck. Safer?

Let's move on to DIY vs Factory made. How many times have I seen propane tanks INSIDE the bus? How many people really know how to do wiring correctly and safely?
How many times do we see generators with fuel tanks tacked on the back bumper?
The emergency exits closed off, the emergency exit windows closed off or removed.
Safer?

So when SAFETY IS MOST IMPORTANT you are lying to yourself that a DIY Motorhome made from an old School Bus is the best approach.

I did not even mention what is safer to everyone else, which is yet another point,
but it doesn't address 'my kids are most important' issue.
Because obviously driving around a structurally modified increased speed 25,000 lb vehicle in which you have no training or license can do huge amount of damage to those around you.

Insurance companies are already backing off here. But when a family's converted school bus catches on fire and the kids are killed, the government may step in,
and prevent everyone from DIYing motorhomes.

[shorthair]

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Let's try this again. When someone says "My kids safety is most important"
So they buy an old School Bus to DIY Convert into a motorhome to haul said kids around.
Not a Factory Motorhome because it is made of sticks-n-staples and will fall apart in a wreck. First off they don't make them of sticks-n=staples since the 1980's
They use aluminum tubing and fiberglass. Si whoever says that is already comparing a 1974 motorhome to their old School Bus. They still make sticks-n-staples TRAILERS.

What is safer is having a truck towing a trailer. The trailer has no kids in it. It does not need crash testing. It could be made of peanuts and glue sticks as a matter of kids safety. The truck has people in it. It has crash tests to test how safe they are, because that is what matters. So when "safety is most important" you would get a trailer. Well if safety is your "highest priority", you would not be living in a bus or trailer at all, you would live in a house rather than living on a freeway, and when you travel you would take an airplane. But that is going to far for safety.

With that settled, we can ask is a steel school bus safer than an aluminum-n-fiberglass motorhome? A steel school bus is very top heavy. They are prone to tipping over. You see this again and again they tip over when in accidents. This is just straight physics, the same physics used to say they are safer because they are made of steel.
Now let's take that top heavy bus and raise that heavy roof 24 inches. Safer?
And now add a rooftop deck. Safer?

Let's move on to DIY vs Factory made. How many times have I seen propane tanks INSIDE the bus? How many people really know how to do wiring correctly and safely?
How many times do we see generators with fuel tanks tacked on the back bumper?
The emergency exits closed off, the emergency exit windows closed off or removed.
Safer?

So when SAFETY IS MOST IMPORTANT you are lying to yourself that a DIY Motorhome made from an old School Bus is the best approach.

I did not even mention what is safer to everyone else, which is yet another point,
but it doesn't address 'my kids are most important' issue.
Because obviously driving around a structurally modified increased speed 25,000 lb vehicle in which you have no training or license can do huge amount of damage to those around you.

Insurance companies are already backing off here. But when a family's converted school bus catches on fire and the kids are killed, the government may step in,
and prevent everyone from DIYing motorhomes.

People tend to develop tunnel vision as to what they want and can't see any of the obstacles in their way, like a diy wood stove that may not have enough fresh air or maybe the flue isn't as air tight as it should have been, then the owners det carbon monoxide poisoning and sue the insurance company because it couldn't have been the owners fault.

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I'm finished with the BeNimble nonsense

[DeMac]

There is a fb site
about him. There's more info available there.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by WIbluebird

I've owned 2 slide in truck campers. Both got delamination and water damage in various parts of the camper even despite me religously caulking all the seams and tarping them every year.

I've seen 2-3 year old high end 5th wheels with delamination already starting. Blows my mind that people finance these things at 50-60k and they actively fall apart just sitting there

EXACTLY why we chose to build a skoolie. We suffered some water damage on our 21.5 "training" fifth wheel. While researching the repair we discovered just how poorly ALL commercial RV's are made.....Class A, B, C, Fivers, and bumper pulls. Cardboard, glue, staples, and if you're lucky a spindly little "aluminum framed" wall.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

I am really surprised by this safety view... It always comes down to safe for who?
Lately we have invented the Amerika first line.
That was already obvious with people finding it important to buy huge cars so that they can protect THEIR kids. Nobody seems to care about the other side of the accident. As usual short sighted and somewhat selfish..

You sound like my Econ professor who tried to teach that SUV's and pickups were more dangerous than cars. I took him to task on that. The DATA shows that yes, more people die in accidents involving SUV's and pickups. That's all he wanted to hear. However, the DATA also showed that the ones dying were the ones in the unsafe little cars. Not surprising considering the laws of physics.
Yes, at the time I drove a 7,500 pound "one ton" Dually GMC. That truck had been rear ended 5 times in the "big city", sometimes while my 2,000 pound slide in camper was in the bed. In EVER CASE me and mine continued our trip while the other vehicle was towed.
I now drive an 8,500 pound empty F350 with a 9' utility bed. I no longer havce to deal with big city idiot drivers so it hasn't been hit but the laws of physics say I'm better off and so are mine.
And here's the bottom line..... ME AND MINE are my concern, you and yours are your concern. I drive big trucks because ME AND MINE are going home if you hit us. If you and yours go home that would be nice but I REALLY don't care because that's ON YOU.
Call me selfish if you like, I've been called worse, but it's not at all short sighted. The safe continuation of my genetic makeup is far more important for me to ensure than the continuation of yours....that's your job and pretty much EXACTLY what "natural selection" is all about. That's hardly short sighted unless the goal is a political rather than natural one.

Originally Posted by BeNimble

Please don't tell me you think a school bus is safer than a modern F250?

Have you heard of the LAWS OF PHYSICS?

The F250 may have air bags but it's got far less mass and is substantially lower. It will NOT fare well in a collision with a 40' pusher. It will go UNDER in a side impact. It will basically stop dead in a rear impact once it finds the engine. And in a front impact it's going to be fatal at highway speeds even with the air bags as the F250 will stop in about 3 feet and then be heading backwards. The human body can withstand a LINEAR deceleration from 55mph to zero over a distance of 59 feet. Anything less and the internal organs are ripped from their attachments, arteries, etc. The F250 driver is going to decelerate in MAYBE 10 feet.....which equals death. Those in the BUS with over 3 times the mass will suffer a significant impact and likely suffer injuries due to restraints but the buss WILL NOT STOP and will instead push the F250 perhaps hundreds of feet as it decelerates. Those in the bus can survive.
That's how the LAWS of PHYSICS work in the real world.
SO yes, a 30,000 pound school bus is safer than an F250

Originally Posted by joeblack5

Insurance is about numbers and making money... If you can not get insurance then the only conclusion is that school buses are less safe. I am sure the crash /risk/ money data is somewhere.
Johan

Yes, it's about making money. No that's not the ONLY CONCLUSION.
There are many MANY variables. Safe construction is but one factor
Other MAJOR VARIABLES factor in:
CREDIT RATING - a general indication of your societal responsibility

DRIVING RECORD - an occasional speeding ticket is no biggie. Reckless driving, running stop signs, accidents....that's a red flag

CRIMINAL RECORD - a propensity for illegal or shady dealings increases liability.

DRIVING EXPERIENCE - a great driving record with 2 years "experience" is expensive or even uninsurable when stepping up to a huge rig.
AGE - until you hit 25 or 27 you're a high risk, especially if you're male.

[o1marc]

Not an F-250, Siverado, and not a bus,but you get the point. I'd rather be the semi driver.

[Bus'n it]

Crazy. I read about that accident. Silverado driver was killed. Part of a multi car crash. Listen guys, when it is your time to go, it is time to go. Freak things can happen in any vehicle.
As my mom used to say about older people... "They ate their bread"!