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Old 07-12-2010, 02:13 PM   #1
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Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Which would YOU choose, and why?

I'll be going to see two buses this week that will be auctioned off locally later in the week.

One is a 1991 Thomas Saf-T-Liner high top, 38 ft RE with 139K miles, Cat 3116TA engine, Allison MT643 transmission, sanders and two pass through belly bins. Bidding ends this Thursday.

The other is a 1990 Crown Super Coach II, 36 Ft RE with 112K miles, Cat 3208T engine, Allison MT643 transmission, and two pass through belly bins. Live auction this Saturday.

I've thought I might do a roof raise, but not sure it will be necessary with the Thomas, and not sure it will be possible with the Crown. The biggest difference to me as they are is the 2 ft difference in length. Might want to do one or two slideouts in either case.

What do you all think?
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:29 PM   #2
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni John
Oh screw it, just buy them both . . .

Ahh, if only I had room...

Thanks for the rest of the advice, John.
Just finished my parking stall except for the electrical hookup, which I hope to have in by next week.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:18 AM   #3
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

The 3116 has a poor reputation in government surplus circles. The 3208 is highly sought after by the same people. For my next bus I'll have either the 3208 or the 7.3L, whichever is available at the time. I love my 6.6L but desire a bit more torque. Personally, I find the 3208 easier to work on. Both are based on the same design, but the 3208 has (IMO) better quality. Remember, you asked.....
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:03 PM   #4
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

well that tells you what the best eng,,the 3116 motor is a jap one and the 3208 is all USA. ..the the crown is the best the bus,i have seen 1960' models still running,,,
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:13 PM   #5
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Keith and M1031, thanks for the feedback.

M1031,
What, specifically, does the 3116 have a bad reputation for? Supposedly the 3116 has about the same horsepower as the 3208, but I don't know about the torque. Isn't it a newer design? I've read that 3208s have a habit of smoking until warmed up.

Keith,
I didn't know the 3116 was foreign-built. I'm surprised to see you imply that a Japanese-built 3116 engine would, by the fact of its origin, be inferior to the USA-built 3208. Car engines from Japan seem to be pretty good if you look at Toyota, Honda, Mazda etc. but I have no idea if that quality rubs off onto Japan's big block truck and tractor engines.

But I'm hip to the overall quality of Crowns. Just don't know if this particular one will fit my needs. I'll take a tape measure with me when I go to see it.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:45 PM   #6
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus
Keith and M1031, thanks for the feedback.

M1031,
What, specifically, does the 3116 have a bad reputation for? Supposedly the 3116 has about the same horsepower as the 3208, but I don't know about the torque. Isn't it a newer design? I've read that 3208s have a habit of smoking until warmed up.
Locutus;

The military uses the 3116 because they are cheaper to build. I don't know about a newer design. However, the 3208 is considerably more reliable in the long run. I've seen 3208s dropped into M35 Deuces and perform well. I've worked with city maintenance departments and they tell me the 3208 is a lower maintenance engine. The 3116 has block issues and usually needs to be resleaved. This is what I've seen and heard.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:53 PM   #7
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Thanks, M. I'll take this info to heart. Good to know.
*Sigh* --If only the Crown was the same length as the Thomas (and if a Crown roof raise was practical) the decision would be easy.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:50 PM   #8
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

you see,it like cummins they have 4, 5.9 eng's 160 hp 190 hp 230 hp 250 hp in the 5.9 when you add a blower to the eng,it helps.like mine i have the 160 hp but added the blower its now about 225 hp good on fuel less to rebuild if have too,but all USA build..


this is how the bus's line up
1- crown,,,,,best-----there own frame
2-blue bird,,,#2 best-----the same
3-thomas,,,,good-----what ever the chepest chassis maker at the time
mostly IH,,,,but i see they have used frightshakers & pete's if orded
4-ward's,,,,,, being the worst bus------WHAT EVER THEY CAN GET...just to stay in busseness
5- there was one other the groverment made them close down

the thomas saf-t-liner is like the blue bird all amercan and the IH genissess bus ,,take them right to the junk yard
i have worked all of them... for the past 35 yrs
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:25 PM   #9
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

there about the same as a ward,,they good if you got it in a little bus,they use a Rv frame ...chevy 3500

wish we can see more of the crown's over here on the east cost,there a calf bus,
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:09 PM   #10
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Every conventional (nose-in-front) bus built up through the 90s was available on a variety of truck-based chassis - customers could order nearly any combination. Conventional builders were Blue Bird, Thomas, Ward (renamed AmTran in the 90s, now IC Corp), all of which are still building, and Carpenter, Wayne, and Superior (all out of business). In Canada, you also had Corbeil, which recently went out of business. There were others going back to the 60s and before.

Crown and Gillig, 2 CA-based builders, used their own frame for flat-nose buses.

Up through the 80s, the other companies used modified truck chassis, such as the International or GM, or a less-popular truck chassis like Oshkosh (used by Thomas in the late 80s) or Asia Smith (used by Wayne and the short-lived "New Bus Company"). Some continued this practice into the 90s, such as the Wayne/Crane Carrier and the Carpenter/Spartan designs.

Thomas and Blue Bird switched to building their own chassis in the late 80s/early 90s, although Blue Bird's TC/2000 used some similar components with the GM truck line after they signed an exclusive agreement for conventional chassis. Thomas is now using some Freightliner components, as they were bought out by Freightliner.

International owned controlling interest in AmTran through the 90s, and AmTran's Genesis (and later 90s FE/RE line) were only built on International chassis (now, all AmTran products have evolved into the IC line, which is wholly owned by International). They also sold flat-nose chassis to other companies in the early 90s, and the rear-engine chassis to Corbeil in the late 90s.

I can't offer an unbiased opinion in this case, because the Crown is a very rare vehicle compared to the Thomas. If you're going to do a full conversion with a roof raise, I'd rather see the Thomas get cut up and the Crown go to a bus nut's collection.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:11 PM   #11
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith
you see,it like cummins they have 4, 5.9 eng's 160 hp 190 hp 230 hp 250 hp in the 5.9 when you add a blower to the eng,it helps.like mine i have the 160 hp but added the blower its now about 225 hp good on fuel less to rebuild if have too,but all USA build..


this is how the bus's line up
1- crown,,,,,best-----there own frame
2-blue bird,,,#2 best-----the same
3-thomas,,,,good-----what ever the chepest chassis maker at the time
mostly IH,,,,but i see they have used frightshakers & pete's if orded
4-ward's,,,,,, being the worst bus------WHAT EVER THEY CAN GET...just to stay in busseness
5- there was one other the groverment made them close down

the thomas saf-t-liner is like the blue bird all amercan and the IH genissess bus ,,take them right to the junk yard
i have worked all of them... for the past 35 yrs
Keith;

My Ward is built like a tank. Look at the rivots and J hooks holding her together. The sheet metal is very thick and durable. Perhaps I have an exception to the rule, but I'm very pleased with my Ward.
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:06 AM   #12
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Went to see the Thomas today. Seems to be in pretty good condition with no rust anywhere that I could find, except for about 2 square inches on the side mirror tube frame. Funny though, there were two old Crowns and a Gillig parked right next to it. I might buy the Thomas if the price is right, but only after looking at the Crown Super Coach II tomorrow.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:10 PM   #13
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

I see that Public Surplus now has two Thomas Buses in Bellingham, WA, both with the 8.2 engine. Older buses though, about 1986. Wonder if they're worth looking into.
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:08 PM   #14
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Ha 1o31 ,now see yours is on a truck frame,but them flat nose's or the RE's are crap...shake ,ratel,roll......they just fall apart after about 4 yrs of service ....now i got a 94 blue bird with 36000 origional mile and its just as tight as the day it was born,,, got mine from a school in ala and use only for the band and football...
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:43 PM   #15
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith
Ha 1o31 ,now see yours is on a truck frame,but them flat nose's or the RE's are crap...shake ,ratel,roll......they just fall apart after about 4 yrs of service ....now i got a 94 blue bird with 36000 origional mile and its just as tight as the day it was born,,, got mine from a school in ala and use only for the band and football...
Oh yeah, now I get it. Valid point since I have a conventional. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:34 PM   #16
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

I went to see the Crown today. Generally, it looks nice and has a cleaner look than the thomas, put together in such a way that the thousands of rivets and metal screws that the Thomas has either aren't visible on the Crown or aren't necessary. Not sure how it's put together.

That said, there appear to be some issues. Number one, I couldn't start it. The batteries must be discharged. The port side rides six or seven inches higher than the starboard side, with the whole bus body leaning to starboard and the rear starboard wheels slanting out at the bottom. I see this as either an Air suspension leak, or a problem with the axle(s). I did not see any evidence of an Air suspension (no airbags that I could see) although I'm definitely no expert. This is puzzling, since the bus only has about 112K miles on it. Paint must not stick as well to aluminum as it does to steel because there are several places where the paint is peeling off the aluminum skin. The engine and side radiator doors appear to be made of fiberglass and there is some minor damage to the radiator door. The underside of the engine and filters were wet with oil, but I saw no active drips. The transmission fluid was clean and smelled fresh. The tread on the rear tires appear new, and the front tires are about 1/2. Supposedly this bus was recently driven to its current location. I did not see any rust.

So here's a comparison of the two buses as I see them:

1. Thomas started up, Crown did not. Edge: Thomas.
2. Crown leans for an unknown reason. Thomas is level on its suspension. Edge: Thomas.
3. Crown is a nicer looking bus with cleaner lines. Edge: Crown.
4. Crown has a "cult" following and is more rare. Probably better resale value as a result. Edge: Crown.
5. Crown has 112K miles, Thomas has 139K miles. Edge: Crown.
6. Crown has 3208 Cat. Thomas has 3116 Cat. Both have Allison MT643 tranny. Edge: Crown.
7. However, Thomas engine runs and was dry, whereas Crown didn't start and has evidence of some oil leakage. Edge: Thomas.
8. Belly storage twice as large in Thomas. Edge: Thomas.
9. Crown storage and other hatches lock with square key. Thomas storage does not. Edge: Crown.
10. Paint solid on Thomas and no body damage. Crown has some minor body damage and flaking paint. Edge: Thomas.
11. Usable interior space as measured from front of upper engine shelf to back of driver's seat: Thomas: 33 Feet, Crown: 29' 7". Edge: Thomas.
12. Center Ceiling height: Thomas 6' 5", Crown 6' 4". Edge: Thomas.
13. Interior width same in both: 90" wall to wall, and a 2" taper to the windows. No edge for either bus.
14. Wheel well hump: Thomas 9", Crown 6". Edge: Crown.
15. Thomas entry door is a double out swing. Crown is a single in swing. Edge: Crown.
16. Tires look newer on the Crown. Edge: Crown.
17. Thomas has sanders, Crown does not. Since I plan to also use my conversion in the winter for skiing, the edge in this case goes to Thomas.

That's a tie at 8 for both the Thomas the Crown, plus one even, unless I'm missing something. However I'm still more inclined toward the Thomas even though I like the look of the Crown better, because the Thomas did not display the potentially serious mechanical problems that the Crown did.

Your feedback is welcome and eagerly anticipated!
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:01 AM   #17
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locutus
2. Crown leans for an unknown reason. Thomas is level on its suspension. Edge: Thomas.
9. Crown storage and other hatches lock with square key. Thomas storage does not. Edge: Crown.
2. See if you can verify the leaning issue. Many Crowns were built with air suspension. It's common for air-ride buses to deflate unevenly and lean severely while parked (and if you're sitting on the bus, it's often not a slow leak, things get hung up and then drop an inch or so at once with a bang. If you're working under the bus, make sure the body is supported). I've seen buses that hold full air pressure for months (after some mechanic went OCD on air leaks in the whole system) and I've seen some that would lose air after half an hour. It could be a spring system with some major problem, but it sounds like deflated air bags (and maybe parked on unlevel ground). I'd rather have air than springs, although some people are uncomfortable with the swaying of air ride.

9. The square key latch isn't a lock. You can open those with a slightly wider-than-normal flat screwdriver. I used to own a Crown. I now own an AmTran, which has square key latches for the engine compartment, and I can use the key from my Toyota to open those.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:40 AM   #18
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Phil,
I couldn't see the rear suspension but the front was leaf springs and shocks. Didn't see any air bags. There was actually about 6 or 7 inches difference in clearance in the wheelwells between port and starboard. Ground clearance under the belly bins was about 14 inches on the port side and only 8 inches on the starboard side. I'm going to try to contact the school district today and see if they can provide any info on this.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:59 AM   #19
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

Check the spring hangers and spring bolts on the back. Air ride usually has (on a single bag system) an arm connecting the axle to the chassis to stabilize the bag and keep alignment on the rear axle. A dual bag system is set up differently (at least on semis).
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:17 PM   #20
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Re: Thomas Saf-T-Liner, or Crown Super Coach II. Which one?

If you need a tie breaker, I'm not an expert but personally I don't think the Crown Super II qualifies for the "cult following" bus. For that it needs to be the original "twinkie" look, which I think was last made in 1991. A new model with a 3208 isn't going to cut it with the "Old Skool" crowd. Not that it's a bad bus, just not the same as the oldies.
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