Tongue weight

[Ronnie]

Ok some math now. It is a 5" disc the airbag pushes on, so that is 19.6 sq inches. There is a 20% difference favoring the airbag on pivot length, so


10 psi equals 235lbs tongue weight
20 psi 470
40 940
60 1411


Maximum for this hitch ( shocker HD) is 1600lbs tongue weight and 16,000 trailer weight. I know I have had 60 psi in it a few times, with a three axle trailer. 20 psi is normal for my car trailer.

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Shifting weight in the trailer is only appropriate if, once loaded, the tongue weight is too high or low. Tongue weight must be at least 10% or the entire rig will be an unstable and dangerous mess going down the road.

We're saying the same thing here, if worded differently.

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Reducing tongue weight to put weight back on the front of an unstable steering condition is NOT ACCEPTABLE NOR SAFE unless the tongue weight is determined to be FAR in excess of 10%.

Now we're disagreeing. Shifting weight on the trailer is how you adjust tongue weight, and there's no other way to do it. If your tow vehicle is light in the front with a trailer but drives normally without, then the trailer is incorrectly loaded and you move weight from the front to the rear of the trailer. There is no other way to adjust tongue weight than to move weight. This has nothing to do with an overloaded trailer, which is a whole different issue. Case in point - I have an auto hauler trailer. If I put a car on front first, my pull rig is light in the front and is no fun to drive. If I either back the car onto the trailer, or put the car as far to the rear of the trailer as it will safely go, it pulls fine. Not a pound of difference in the load (and it's not overloaded) but where the weight is on the trailer makes a huge difference between an easy tow and a tow rig that difficult to drive.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Veloc

I have an auto hauler trailer. If I put a car on front first, my pull rig is light in the front and is no fun to drive. If I either back the car onto the trailer, or put the car as far to the rear of the trailer as it will safely go, it pulls fine. Not a pound of difference in the load (and it's not overloaded) but where the weight is on the trailer makes a huge difference between an easy tow and a tow rig that difficult to drive.

The problem is when the tongue or pin weight is to high or too low.
Bumper pulls need 10% of total trailer weight on the tongue.
Fifth wheels require 15-20% of total trailer weight on the pin.


Moving weight in the trailer to achieve proper pin or tongue weight is fine. Moving weight in the trailer to compensate for an insufficient tow rig is not.



My point is simply that you must maintain proper pin or tongue weight and if you can't without causing suspension issues (front or rear) on your tow rig then the tow rig is improper for the load to be moved.
And after market air bags for towing, do NOTHING to increase a tow rigs capacity. They will however allow you to overload the tow rig without looking like it is.


The tow rig and trailer must be looked at as an entire system. Weak points in most rigs are:
1) TIRE CAPACITY on the tow rig because most people buy the cheaper tires...which have lower load ratings.
2) TIRE CAPACITY on the trailer because people buy trailer tires based on cost. They may well have lower capacities than the trailer axle

3) GAW of the rear axle on the tow rig.
4) GAW of the axles on the trailer
5) Suspension capacity of the tow rig.
6) Towing capacity (trailer weight) of the tow rig.... which is often determined by the marketing department not the engineers and is dependent upon what the competition says they can pull. - That 7,000 pound tow capacity on a 2002 Ram 1500 using a 5th wheel? Yeah, it will do it....at 25mph up the hills with the engine screaming...... And nothing extra in the truck besides two people and a full tank of fuel because with a 7000 pound 5th wheel and proper pin weight, the front and rear axle are both within a couple hundred pounds of max.


I was Motor T, I trained drivers, I inspected drivers and rigs, most people out there are ignorant about towing. Ask a few when you come across them, when was the last time you did a weight and balance on your rig? What's your pin (tongue) weight? What's your GCW? What does each of your axles weigh?
Important questions when you see that weight limit sign on the two lane road to the destination you've been wanting to see for months or years.
And yet, most have no clue. So yeah, I'm a bit anal about the subject. Nothing personal.

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

The problem is when the tongue or pin weight is to high or too low.
Bumper pulls need 10% of total trailer weight on the tongue.
Fifth wheels require 15-20% of total trailer weight on the pin.


Moving weight in the trailer to achieve proper pin or tongue weight is fine. Moving weight in the trailer to compensate for an insufficient tow rig is not.



My point is simply that you must maintain proper pin or tongue weight and if you can't without causing suspension issues (front or rear) on your tow rig then the tow rig is improper for the load to be moved.
And after market air bags for towing, do NOTHING to increase a tow rigs capacity. They will however allow you to overload the tow rig without looking like it is.


The tow rig and trailer must be looked at as an entire system. Weak points in most rigs are:
1) TIRE CAPACITY on the tow rig because most people buy the cheaper tires...which have lower load ratings.
2) TIRE CAPACITY on the trailer because people buy trailer tires based on cost. They may well have lower capacities than the trailer axle

3) GAW of the rear axle on the tow rig.
4) GAW of the axles on the trailer
5) Suspension capacity of the tow rig.
6) Towing capacity (trailer weight) of the tow rig.... which is often determined by the marketing department not the engineers and is dependent upon what the competition says they can pull. - That 7,000 pound tow capacity on a 2002 Ram 1500 using a 5th wheel? Yeah, it will do it....at 25mph up the hills with the engine screaming...... And nothing extra in the truck besides two people and a full tank of fuel because with a 7000 pound 5th wheel and proper pin weight, the front and rear axle are both within a couple hundred pounds of max.


I was Motor T, I trained drivers, I inspected drivers and rigs, most people out there are ignorant about towing. Ask a few when you come across them, when was the last time you did a weight and balance on your rig? What's your pin (tongue) weight? What's your GCW? What does each of your axles weigh?
Important questions when you see that weight limit sign on the two lane road to the destination you've been wanting to see for months or years.
And yet, most have no clue. So yeah, I'm a bit anal about the subject. Nothing personal.

No worries, but I didn't think anyone was discussing how to pull more trailer than the tow rig can handle, which is probably where we "disagreed." I'm right there with you on not overloading the tow rig. Personally, I don't even like getting close to the max rating. My Durango has a 7500lb limit and I won't pull more than 5000lbs with it considering the Durango weighs about 5300lbs.

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by Veloc

No worries, but I didn't think anyone was discussing how to pull more trailer than the tow rig can handle, which is probably where we "disagreed." I'm right there with you on not overloading the tow rig. Personally, I don't even like getting close to the max rating. My Durango has a 7500lb limit and I won't pull more than 5000lbs with it considering the Durango weighs about 5300lbs.

I'll pull way more than the 12,000 they rate my F350 for (with 5th wheel) but that's because the number is ridiculously low for my manual transmission rig with the Ford "PowerStroke" version of the DT444E that is rated to 75,000 GVCW. But I also know what the axle weights and limits are (and have tires rated higher than the axles) and that the low 5th wheel weight is because trucks sold as chassis cabs to be outfitted as god knows what are assigned (used to be when mine was made anyway) much lower towing capacities because Ford had no idea how the rig would be outfitted..... utility box, flat bed, bucket truck for line work, etc. I'm yet to find a hill (that I was going up.... I granny lowed one coming down out of Mt Rushmore) that required more than a drop to 4th while maintaining the ability to do 65 up the hill (if I don't mind paying for the fuel, which I do so it's 55 in 4th up the big hills as a compromise between fuel economy and time).

On the other hand, my current 5th wheel is 7,000 gross and plenty big enough for it's usage. If I were keeping it I'd probably change my gear ratio for higher MPG and take drop the hit in climb capability.
My Ram 1500 rated for 7k towing with a 5th wheel...... is over rated and works overtime going up a hill even with only 5500...... and gets 9MPG versus the 12 for the Ford...... while within a couple hundred pounds on both axles with the correct pin weight if we load the trailer to the 7K rating of the Ram.


So every combination has it's own things to be concerned with but pin or tongue weight is something most don't understand beyond "it's a thing".
When you encounter people out there, ask them "whats your pin (or tongue) weight" or when (if) they ever took the time to do the weighing and calculating. You might be surprised how many people are out there doing long trips or full timing that have no idea. The salesman said their truck could do it and so they are.
Anyway, just want people to be aware.