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Old 12-07-2009, 09:28 PM   #1
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What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Speaking of weight. I need to get my bus weighed. I really don't know exactly what it weighs.

The GVWR is 24,500# (under my state's weight threshold of 26,000# for CDL requirement.)
It's rated for 60 passengers -- I figure 100 pounds each for 6th graders, or 6,000# total.
Subtracting payload from GVWR, I come up with an empty weight of 18,500#, which is what I put on the title and registration.

I took out 500# of steel from the seats, and at least another 100# of seat coverings. I'm at stripped weight of 17,900#.

I installed:

floor: seven sheets of 3/4" plywood at 75# each.
cabinetry: five sheets of misc 1/2" ply at 50# each.
woodstove 200#
lumber 200# (? maybe?)
storage battery 150#
misc furniture and "appliances" 300# (? maybe?)
holding tanks: 100#
fuel tank: 75#
40 gal water: 330#
supplies and possessions 200# <this would be an interesting index to create on a per person basis...

total = call it 2,400#. My best estimate. Probably not off by more than 50%.

I should be right around 21,000#. I don't go over bridges with 10 ton weight limits. 20 ton, 15 ton, sure, but not 10 ton.

Bus weight presents a situation I must resolve.

I just bought some property to live on. It is remote. It is hard to get to. I have to get the bus there. I'm pretty sure I can get drive the 30' bus across the 27' wide creek bed. I'm confident that if I bottom out trying, I can get pulled out by the 4WD tow-truck I plan to have on site. I'm pretty sure I can drive the bus up the 5/8 mile Jeep trail that leads to the land. The tow-truck will precede me, and he can't get out unless I get up the trail...that's incentive.

But....

I don't want to drive my Jeep across the creek everyday for very long. I will not be able to do it when the creek is up (I am well schooled on the dangers of driving across water.) I have to get to school everyday. I need a bridge (which is a seperate financial/legal/engineering issue in itself.) So....

I need to build a 15 ton capacity bridge to get my bus OUT someday! I am not going to imprison the bus behind a small bridge (that is strong enough for cars and trucks, but not buses) and abandon it in the backwoods of SW Virginia. I have long term plans for it.

OR... can I build a removeable bridge that I can use daily for the car, and take up to drive the bus in and out on the rare occasion?

The latter is my plan. $$ figure into this in a big way, so I'm somewhat limited by capital resources, although I may be able to stretch myself some.

Very interesting...

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Old 12-08-2009, 07:04 AM   #2
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

The creekbed is about 27' wide from bank to bank, and about 5 feet deep. The normal creek flow is about 6" deep and 12' wide. The bed of the creek seems to be a rock shelf. From the street side of the creek (it runs along the paved road), the road goes down into the creek at a tangent, about 45 degrees to the creekbed. On the property side of the creekbed, the exit from the creek is pretty much straight up a cut in the bank (90 degrees to the creekbed). I think I can drive down into the creekbed from the road, turn a bit to face the other bank with my front end, and drive up the bank on the other side. It's not hard to make it in a truck or Jeep, but the length of the bus is the problem.

It will be a good test of my design of the propane carrier. Theoretically, the rear bumper would have to bottom out before the bottom of the propane carrier hits the ground. Theoretically. I will remove the propane tanks before crossing, but I might also just take the carrier off to be sure it doesn't hang up (it sits right behind the differential.)

*Probably* I can just drive across the creek and up the Jeep trail. But that's why I'm going to have the tow truck on site. When I first went out there, I couldn't get all the way to the property with my Jeep in 4WD-Low. I thought I was going to break something, and I was starting to bottom out in places. The former owner had the road re-graded, and now you could drive it in a 2WD pick-up. The road still needs a lot of work, as it was never designed properly with regard to drainage -- they just pushed a bulldozer up the hill. I can do the necessary work with a small rented front-end loader (at $175/day), and a half dozen pieces of corrugated drain pipe will help fix the drainage issus. The bridge is different.

First, it's a misdemeanor to dump rubble or construct any structure in the creekbed, itself -- and they prosecute people for it. Culverts are disfavored. Bridge construction requires some significant engineering at this scale, and that's fairly expensive.

My favorite idea is to put up some kind of moveable bridge that I can lower into the creek bed where it is only about 15' wide. Then I can drive across it and take it out of the creekbed -- sort of a drawbridge. That is going to be a tricky piece of work. The next idea is to build a 5 ton capacity, one lane bridge across the creek, but a 27' span still requires some serious engineering -- and it makes it impossible to get the bus out. A 15 ton capacity bridge would be ideal, but ain't gonna be cheap!

We'll see next semester!
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:06 AM   #3
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.


Railroad flat cars are often used as bridges.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:04 PM   #4
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Do some research into what the army uses to move it's heavy equipment. They have pontoon type bridges that are used temporarily to get their caravans cross rivers. Those must be portable. Maybe you could find something like that at a surplus sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elliot Naess
Railroad flat cars are often used as bridges.
True. Mountainviewdome used one to get across a washout somewhere out west (NV or NM?). If I can find the link I'll post it for ya.

<edit>
Here's the link to the pictoral of what they built: http://www.mountainviewdome.com/Creek%20Crossing.htm
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:08 PM   #5
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

first weigh the bus so that you are dealing with a known fact, look for a matched pair of flatbed semitrailers to set side by side on a pair of substantial piers on each creek bank remove the trailer running gear and sell it for salvage
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #6
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Just build some ramps and ramp that bus over the creek.

I take no responsibility if you go this route and fail to make it across or severely damage the bus, yourself, fish, and any furry woodland creatures. just make sure you get it on video for our entertainment

Chris

Oh and before you ramp it make sure you get yourself on video saying "Check this out dude"
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:02 AM   #7
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

I like the thoughts of a traditional A frame bridge for the short span you are talking about. Should be quite DIYable using treated telephone poles.

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Old 12-09-2009, 06:23 AM   #8
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Just make sure that if you use Telephone Poles or railroad ties that you wear gloves and long sleeves when handling it. Wear a mask when cutting it also. They are treated with Creosote.
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Old 12-09-2009, 08:33 PM   #9
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Check out what the military uses.... Bailey Bridge would be my bet...
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:24 PM   #10
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Regarding determining the weight of your bus - You can get it weighed by axle at just about any truck stop for $8-$12. Load it with stuff like you would normally have it, fill the tanks as you normally would have them, etc. Then take it to your your nearest truck stop.

Beyond knowing what bridges you can safely cross, it also helps with tire inflation. Most tires for trucks and buses have different recomended inflation pressures for different loads. Running at the proper pressure for the load will give the best fuel mileage, tire life and safety.
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:32 PM   #11
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

What about bridging it with portable ramps? You say you have a 15' narrow spot, right? I'd bet your bus's wheelbase will be more than 180" if it's a fullsize. Hit Home Depot for a pallet each of concrete blocks and Quikrete, rent a Bobcat, and build a pair of anchors on each side. Each anchor will hold a pair of steel ramps set at the right width for the bus. They won't be LIGHT, but they'll be manageable with some creativity. (Maybe haul them in and out with the Jeep?)

If the wheelbase is longer than the "bridge" (and I suspect it will be), they only need to hold the weight of the heavier axle (almost certainly the rear).
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:49 AM   #12
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

I like the A-frame bridge, and I'm thinking about portable ramps to get the Jeep across the narrow spot when it's not high water. The difficult part is that it is illegal to place anything permanently in the creek bed, even on the banks. I can put permanent abutments for the bridge on top of the banks, but not down in them.

I may just get come up with some steel beams that I can drag across the low spot and then move out of the way when I get the Jeep across.

of course, this is all going to have to wait until I can recoup from buying a new (used) engine and having it installed. That really crimps my finances this next semester -- big time.
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Old 12-15-2009, 02:48 PM   #13
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Quote:
The difficult part is that it is illegal to place anything permanently in the creek bed, even on the banks. I can put permanent abutments for the bridge on top of the banks, but not down in them.
How are you at camoflauge? I'm dead serious: make something look like it's been there for 30 years and people will usually assume it has. Plant a bunch of assorted vegetation around your anchors, maybe add some strategic "rust" streaks from any metal parts, hit the blocks with a sandblaster for a nice weathered look...maybe add a couple of (empty) wasp nests to deter close obervation.

Alternately, how close together can you get your abutmants above the banks?

And how deep is the creek?
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:22 PM   #14
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

I don't think I could get away with it. The place is remote, but the road is fairly well used, and the entire creek is visible from the road. Everybody who lives in the area knows there's no bridge there. At normal flow, the creek is only about 6" deep and very slow. When it rains for a day, it's about a foot deep and very fast. Every year it floods some, and a couple of years ago, they had a big flood that wiped out a lot of bridges in the area and caused a lot of property damage. Old bridges that had columns extending down into the creek bed were responsible for a lot of the damage and flooding, as they caught debris and trees and created dams --- that lasted until they burst and sent all the water downstream at once. (Then a bunch of local guys went to federal prison for bid-rigging and extortion related to federal clean-up funds.)

So, because of the flooding issues, a removable bridge would work (it would have to come up immediately after I used it), or a bridge above the banks. $$ considerations (especially since I have to buy a new engine for my Jeep) are making me lean toward some kind of metal planking that would support 2 or 3 tons (my Jeep weighs 3,000#). If I can make some kind of simple lift system for them, it shouldn't be too much of a PITA to lower and raise the bridge every time I used it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:55 AM   #15
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

You may want to look at counter weight tech used in drawbridges of the middle ages. Counterweights can be made with almost anything. Your biggest challenge will be creating the anchor points.

Here's a quickie link that might help get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bascule_bridge

And another link: http://books.google.com/books?id=az1...age&q=&f=false
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Old 12-16-2009, 09:05 PM   #16
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Actually, this is something like what I have in mind, only on a much smaller scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pe...bridge_new.jpg

It's a rolling bascule bridge. I think I could work something like this with a small electric winch -- solar powered and remote control. But.... it's a long way off.

There's plenty of room on the land side of the creek, but on the road side, there's not much space for putting abutments or anything. I need to take a picture of it to post.

I think that a rolling bridge would be the easiest to operate and keep aligned if the rolling portion of it sat in simple concrete troughs that limited its movement to the necessary rolling motion. The counterweight portion could be designed to act as a stop, or detente, at each end of the arc that the bridge travels through. I'm thinking reinforced concrete for the counterweight and rolling section, and possibly some kind of one ended suspension bridge to carry the roadway.

Here's a rough drawing. The labels read: Concrete counterweight; concrete abutment, I-Beam (span), cross member (support cable attachment point); winch and draw-down cable; and, support cable.

Obviously not to scale, but you get the idea that by lowering down into the creekbed, a shorter span is required than by going straight across the top.
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rolling bascule bridge design.gif  
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Old 12-17-2009, 08:33 PM   #17
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.



Pictures of the Actual AVLB:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...=&aqi=&start=0
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:51 AM   #18
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.


Just make the bus amphibious, and you can cross any river in the world!



(The Kinetic Sculpture Racing "Magic Bus" of Port Townsend, Washington.)
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:50 PM   #19
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Re: What does your bus really weigh? Building a bridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric von Kleist
I don't think I could get away with it. The place is remote, but the road is fairly well used, and the entire creek is visible from the road. Everybody who lives in the area knows there's no bridge there. At normal flow, the creek is only about 6" deep and very slow. When it rains for a day, it's about a foot deep and very fast. Every year it floods some, and a couple of years ago, they had a big flood that wiped out a lot of bridges in the area and caused a lot of property damage. Old bridges that had columns extending down into the creek bed were responsible for a lot of the damage and flooding, as they caught debris and trees and created dams --- that lasted until they burst and sent all the water downstream at once. (Then a bunch of local guys went to federal prison for bid-rigging and extortion related to federal clean-up funds.)

So, because of the flooding issues, a removable bridge would work (it would have to come up immediately after I used it), or a bridge above the banks. $$ considerations (especially since I have to buy a new engine for my Jeep) are making me lean toward some kind of metal planking that would support 2 or 3 tons (my Jeep weighs 3,000#). If I can make some kind of simple lift system for them, it shouldn't be too much of a PITA to lower and raise the bridge every time I used it.
Easy, then: find a big-truck scrapyard & look for a junked car carrier. Grab yourself some ramps!
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