Why does everyone use composting toilets?

[Ronnie]

For those doubting me on a cup of water per flush understand that on an rv toilet it is direct dump into the tank. Also you control the water needed by how long you hold the flush lever, or pedal. I think most manufacturer claim about s pint. I find that rarely is there a need to flush that long. In our railroad car the flush and water lever are separate so that just peeing you can flush without water, although a rinse is prudent. It is an rv toilet as well.

I have no need to claim false figures.

Also for a household toilet they have a built in trap that needs to have water in it to prevent sewer smells/ gas from coming in. So more water is needed to clear the trap and replace the water in it. An rv toilet does not have the trap being direct dump, and instead gave a "valve" or flap if you will that keeps sewer gasses out.

[banman]

Originally Posted by gs1949

I have missed this very interesting thread until today. I am designing and plan to build my own composting system. I have very little experience with composting toilets and have never seen one that was working properly, just one that was not working properly. I won't go into details, but it was very gross.

SNIP...
Obviously then, I've started this project to design and construct a fecal material composting toilet with no real experience in composting toilets, but what I do have is many years experience at organic gardening and composting. So as I read this thread I don't see much understanding about composting, which doesn't surprise me at all.

Most people simply have not had the opportunity to get into organic gardening and keep their hands dirty for 25 or 30 years. But I have had plenty of composting experience, and I intend to build a system of composting toilets in my bus that will actually produce finished compost. The plural toilets is not a typo, there will be 2.

SNIP...
The link is to the containers I will use for composting chambers. There won't be any 5 gallon buckets used on my toilet project. Five gallons simply won't hold enough mass.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LDEP0C/

Agreed. Yours is the first post I've seen that exhibits any real understanding of composting...

Turning the pile to keep the heat up and the moisture even is the challenge here.

I commend your trying to do it w/in the space of the bus --
I guess if you're nomading it makes a certain sense -- but then you have nowhere to properly/legally deposit the compost. Even if it's "good" compost you can't legally deposit it on public land -- that would legally, be dumping.
If you have your own property to use the compost then it seems like it would be much easier to have a composting-turn-barrel outside the bus near your garden area...
I don't mean to be contrary -- I'm just curious what the complete plan would look like -- where the compost goes if you're truly a nomad... I look forward to your future thread on the topic.
(link to composting drums for the audience that isn't familiar with them. https://homesteading.com/compost-tumblers/)

With the style bucket you linked it would be easy to make those lock onto a composting drum. Then those 20gal buckets would become viable cartridges to swap out.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by ACamper

Probably 99% of “composting toilets” on the road are not composting anything. They are tossing bio-hazard in trash bins a crossed the country.
The problems with this is- There are people that dumpster dive and recycle things from trash bins, we have hungry people in our country that eat out of trash bins. Garbage collectors are not suited or protected to collect bio-hazard waste.

I don't want to sound cold-blooded here, but dumpsters are for trash, and everyone knows it. Feces is far from the only bio-hazard found in dumpsters, & far from the only hazard period. I'm 100% behind the idea of improving conditions for the poor & homeless, but making trash safe to eat from or peruse is not on my list of realistic ways to accomplish that. Digging through dumpsters always has been, and always will be, a really good way to end up in the ER, poo or no. As far as garbage collectors go, again, they should expect & be prepared for bio-hazards of many types. That's part & parcel of their trade.


I'm not saying one shouldn't be as responsible as possible in handling/disposing of their waste. Or that your points aren't valid. I'm pretty much in agreement with your sentiment. But if someone gets sicks dumpster diving or handling trash without proper PPE &/or hygenic practices, as far as I'm concerned, that's on them.

[JDOnTheGo]

This is always an interesting discussion that boils down to a person doing whatever they want to do regardless of rules, opinions, laws, etc... I find that rather sad but it is certainly not the only topic that falls into this category.

I think a wee bit of research will reveal that feces is a bio-hazard. A little more research will reveal that bio-hazards may not be dumped in the garbage/trash (lot of details to that). So, until the bag/bucket of poo is no longer poo, it cannot legally be dumped in the trash. In the USA, I'm fairly certain these are the facts. However; I have been wrong plenty of times in the past and I have little doubt that trend will continue. I'd enjoy seeing some links/data that state otherwise (at least for the USA).

I'm not smart enough to know all of the factors that went into the establishment of rules like these. The good news, for me - at least, is that I don't need to know. They are the rules so I will do my best to follow them. The same is true for the speed limit (and all other 'rules/laws'). I know... those rules are for other people. Actually, they are not - they are for everyone. I'm not claiming to be perfect (far from it, sadly) but I do choose to know the rules and not simply 'ignore' them because I don't like them.

[o1marc]

It is perfectly legal to dump your bagged poo in a dumpster. That is how I will handle it and not be concerned about how long it takes to compost.
It would help to have some data back up you claim of "I'm fairly certain these are facts" . I didn't post any facts about it's illegality, because it isn't. Anyone with printed regs showing otherwise, please post the source.

[gs1949]

@banman, I am getting my ducks lined up to buy some land this year, so yeah, one goal is to use the compost. But my underlying goal is to see how idiot-proof I can make a portable compost toilet that actually composts. In other words, I want to find out if it's possible to cook all or almost all of the mass at once by warming up the outer layer. I intend to use some kind of manifold to bring air into the bottom of each vat.

The idea for doing this was planted a couple of years ago when I was replacing the soil in a planter made from the bottom part of a wine barrel. I didn't plan to heat it up but additon to a planter mix I added a bag of so-called "composted chicken manure" which contained wood chips and such. I also added a fertilizer containing a bacterial innoculant.

The whole planter got so hot I ended up having to wait nearly a month to plant my fuscias. As far as I could tell by feeling small pieces of bamboo I had inserted into the dirt, the composting action was in process right next to the barrel. So I began to think about compost toilets.


About getting rid of finished compost, I have read regulations that lead me to believe that it may be legal to deposit finished compost in a National Forest or on BLM land, IF this activity is done more than 200 feet from any stream.

I must stress that I have absolutely no intention of doing this until: A) I have compost I consider finished to make available for testing, AND B) I have consulted with someone who could be expected to arrest me if I'm misreading the regulations about what kind of things can legally be left on federal land, i.e. a forest ranger. So this is on hold at least until after I have finished compost.


[EDIT] And I forgot to say I appreciate your suggestion about making my vats a part of a larger system. That's a very good idea, thanks.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by gs1949

@banman, I am getting my ducks lined up to buy some land this year, so yeah, one goal is to use the compost. But my underlying goal is to see how idiot-proof I can make a portable compost toilet that actually composts. In other words, I want to find out if it's possible to cook all or almost all of the mass at once by warming up the outer layer. I intend to use some kind of manifold to bring air into the bottom of each vat.

The idea for doing this was planted a couple of years ago when I was replacing the soil in a planter made from the bottom part of a wine barrel. I didn't plan to heat it up but additon to a planter mix I added a bag of so-called "composted chicken manure" which contained wood chips and such. I also added a fertilizer containing a bacterial innoculant.

The whole planter got so hot I ended up having to wait nearly a month to plant my fuscias. As far as I could tell by inserting small pieces of bamboo into the dirt so I could feel the temperature, the composting action was in process right next to the barrel. So I began to think about compost toilets.


And about getting rid of finished compost, I have read regulations that lead me to believe that it may be legal to deposit finished compost in a National Forest or on BLM land, IF this activity is done more than 200 feet from any stream.

I must stress that I have absolutely no intention of doing this until: A) I have compost I consider finished to make available for testing, AND B) I have consulted with someone who could be expected to arrest me if I'm misreading the regulations, i.e. a forest ranger. So this is on hold at least until after I have finished compost.

It's called cat holing, dig a hole approximately 8" deep to bury it, at least 200' from any water source. Multiple people use requires a larger cat hole.

[PNW_Steve]

I lived in my 5th wheel trailer for two years with a composting toilet. Prior to that I have been full time in a bus and a travel trailer for about 8 years total with a conventional RV toilet.

Personally, I have found the composting toilet to be preferable by a significant margin.

There will be no black tank in my Bluebird

When we started out with the composting toilet I researched options for disposal. At "home" we had compost bins that served well. Just don't use the compost on plants meant for human consumption.

I checked with the local authorities and was told that they discourage the disposal of human or pet waste but, even though discouraged, it was allowed as long as it was contained in a manner that would allow handling without coming into direct contact with fecal matter.

[gs1949]

@o1marc, yes, I am aware of that rule. I'm not planning on burying anything. If I go ahead with this I will spread it around. And I am pretty sure it's 200 feet for cat holing not 20, at least when I used to do it, but I was here where it rains all winter and streams get much larger.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by gs1949

@o1marc, yes, I am aware of that rule. I'm not planning on burying anything. If I go ahead with this I will spread it around. And I am pretty sure it's 200 feet for cat holing not 20, at least when I used to do it, but I was here where it rains all winter and streams get much larger.

You are correct, typo, I've edited the number in my post. My point is it is common to properly bag your poo and toss it in the trash.

[Drew Bru]

I dunno, I think everyone's overthinking all this. Empty the composting toilet into a double-garbage bag, dump it in a truck stop dumpster and let it get hauled off to the landfill....or take it yourself if there's a dump nearby. It's only "hazardous waste" if people are dumpster diving and rip the bag open. If you're truly concerned about it, print up some Hazmat stickers and put 'em on the bags. Human poo is certainly less dangerous than whatever other cocktail of slimy garbage ends up in dumpsters.

[gs1949]

@PNW Steve, when I was working in China, one of my colleagues took me to a market downtown that I had never been to before. This was a young European woman who had a Chinese boyfriend, which was not common. After we got inside I saw a big pile of nice looking leaf lettuce and made a comment about how long it had been since I had a salad. She told me a story about her boyfriend's reaction when she made a salad. After some hollering, the boyfriend fried her salad.

My first reaction was that the boyfriend was being a [multiple expletives deleted] again, which I still think he was, but then I remembered the advice of an uncle that one should never eat raw vegetables or any other uncooked food in Asia. I have no doubt this uncle knew what he was talking about, so I had stir-fried lettuce for supper. It was delicious.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by gs1949

@PNW Steve, when I was working in China, one of my colleagues took me to a market downtown that I had never been to before. This was a young European woman who had a Chinese boyfriend, which was not common. After we got inside I saw a big pile of nice looking leaf lettuce and made a comment about how long it had been since I had a salad. She told me a story about her boyfriend's reaction when she made a salad. After some hollering, the boyfriend fried her salad.

My first reaction was that the boyfriend was being a [multiple expletives deleted] again, which I still think he was, but then I remembered the advice of an uncle that one should never eat raw vegetables or any other uncooked food in Asia. I have no doubt this uncle knew what he was talking about, so I had stir-fried lettuce for supper. It was delicious.

I heard something similar from a former coworker who took a job in Macau. They had an "American" canteen where they could find familiar foods etc. And they were warned not to eat raw veggies from the "American" store either.

[gs1949]

Well it could be as simple as the water they were washed in, if they were washed.

When I first arrived in China one of the things that was emphasized in the university orientation was no ice, unless we made it ourselves, because Chinese people who would never drink unboiled water will make ice cubes out of water straight from the tap. I assume this has to do with the fact that most Chinese people will not drink cold drinks because they believe cold drinks are hazardous, and foreigners drinking cold drinks is just more proof foreigners are crazy.

[ACamper]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

I don't want to sound cold-blooded here, but dumpsters are for trash, and everyone knows it. Feces is far from the only bio-hazard found in dumpsters, & far from the only hazard period. I'm 100% behind the idea of improving conditions for the poor & homeless, but making trash safe to eat from or peruse is not on my list of realistic ways to accomplish that. Digging through dumpsters always has been, and always will be, a really good way to end up in the ER, poo or no. As far as garbage collectors go, again, they should expect & be prepared for bio-hazards of many types. That's part & parcel of their trade.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be as responsible as possible in handling/disposing of their waste. Or that your points aren't valid. I'm pretty much in agreement with your sentiment. But if someone gets sicks dumpster diving or handling trash without proper PPE &/or hygenic practices, as far as I'm concerned, that's on them.

It's not only homeless people. Dumpsters and trash bins are not designed to be toilets or human waste dumps. Trash bins are open and unsecured they can have little kids climb in them retrieving some shinny junk they see, garbage men can spill some trash as they empty bins and get infected, people can toss out stuff by accident and need to retrieve it.

When things are labeled “bio-hazard” people can deal with them in a safe appropriate way. If people know that bins are full of feces they have the opportunity to treat them in a safe manor.

Originally Posted by o1marc

It is perfectly legal to dump your bagged poo in a dumpster. That is how I will handle it and not be concerned about how long it takes to compost.
It would help to have some data back up you claim of "I'm fairly certain these are facts" . I didn't post any facts about it's illegality, because it isn't. Anyone with printed regs showing otherwise, please post the source.

I would imaging that when you are out on the road and you dump your feces in bins at gas stations, parks, restaurants, private business, public places- If you asked them “Is it OK for me to dump my human feces here ?” they would say “NO” “Please Do Not”.

A lot of things come down to respect.

Originally Posted by Drew Bru

Human poo is certainly less dangerous than whatever other cocktail of slimy garbage ends up in dumpsters.

Then household consumer product and food waste ? I don't think so.

[gs1949]

I have been keeping quiet about the bio-hazard aspect of this discussion, but, I think it's time to end that policy. I have never seen any convincing evidence that the excrement of a healthy person should be considered a bio-hazard under any circumstances. I would not hesitate to eat a sandwich of my own excrement if I were paid enough, but the price would be very high.

Obviously the same cannot be said about the excrement of a non-healthy person, so it is prudent for society to act as though everyone is infected, because everyone could be infected.

I get that, but what irritates me is govt agencies telling people what they can't compost on their own property, which I know happens in some places. I think that bio-hazard stuff should be left at the property line.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by JDOnTheGo

This is always an interesting discussion that boils down to a person doing whatever they want to do regardless of rules, opinions, laws, etc... I find that rather sad but it is certainly not the only topic that falls into this category.

I think a wee bit of research will reveal that feces is a bio-hazard. A little more research will reveal that bio-hazards may not be dumped in the garbage/trash (lot of details to that). So, until the bag/bucket of poo is no longer poo, it cannot legally be dumped in the trash. In the USA, I'm fairly certain these are the facts.

I just spent about 10 seconds doing a very wee bit of research. If you want more I can hit up page 2 of Google's search results.

Snohomish County, WA .gov strongly encourages us all to throw dog crap in the trash:
https://snohomishcountywa.gov/Docume...each_FAQs_2018

Riverside County warmly welcomes your bagged or diapered poo:
https://www.rcwaste.org/Waste-Guide/humanexcrement

USDA touches on ways human poo can be prepared to be be thrown in regular garbage:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE...ev2_037773.pdf

California .gov states what can't be thrown in the trash. Feces not included:
https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/HomeHazWaste/info

[banman]

Originally Posted by gs1949

@PNW Steve, when I was working in China, one of my colleagues took me to a market downtown that I had never been to before. This was a young European woman who had a Chinese boyfriend, which was not common. After we got inside I saw a big pile of nice looking leaf lettuce and made a comment about how long it had been since I had a salad. She told me a story about her boyfriend's reaction when she made a salad. After some hollering, the boyfriend fried her salad.

My first reaction was that the boyfriend was being a [multiple expletives deleted] again, which I still think he was, but then I remembered the advice of an uncle that one should never eat raw vegetables or any other uncooked food in Asia. I have no doubt this uncle knew what he was talking about, so I had stir-fried lettuce for supper. It was delicious.

Yup. 'They' call it "night soil" and there's composting involved -- pretty much straight from the gutter to the field. It's only a health problem if you like the idea of 'fresh' salads... Boil or fry everything...
Unless you have the luxury of a clean water source to truly wash your verggies.

Three years in the Philippines -- my body was a vehicle for single celled aliens on several occasions despite my precautions...

[Drew Bru]

Originally Posted by ACamper

Then household consumer product and food waste ? I don't think so.

The agency I used to work for held a Household Hazardous Waste Day a few times a year. People would bring in all sorts of chemicals from petroleum products to paints to propane bottles to who knows what. This didn't start until the 90s though, and it's still only a few times a year. People usually throw this stuff in their household trash. I wouldn't want to live next to a landfill.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by ACamper

It's not only homeless people. Dumpsters and trash bins are not designed to be toilets or human waste dumps. Trash bins are open and unsecured they can have little kids climb in them retrieving some shinny junk they see, garbage men can spill some trash as they empty bins and get infected, people can toss out stuff by accident and need to retrieve it.

I don't feel it's practical to set the standard for what belongs in the trash by excluding items that may hurt small children. Perhaps a better bet would be teaching one's children to avoid inherently hazardous activities.

In many parks, recreational areas, & municipalities, it's actually the law that you MUST dispose of pet waste in garbage containers - often the same ones used for everything else. In such cases, it could be argued that yes - waste dumps are exactly what they were designed & intended for. We can argue pet waste vs human waste if you wish, but it's a moot point. Both can be hazardous if common-sense precautions aren't adhered to.

If I had kids - and a penchant for negligence - I might find a bag of poo on top of the garbage pile a benefit. Perhaps the smell might drive the scamps away from legally (& not) disposed-of treasures that lie beneath the surface: broken glass shards, metal fragments, prescription meds, dead animals, live animals, rotten food, caustic chemicals, etc.