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Old 12-02-2017, 09:19 PM   #21
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I would only use in on INTERIOR walls. IN the bus. Not the outer walls. Those would be foam.
I just like Roxul's acoustic and fireproof properties.
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Old 12-02-2017, 09:50 PM   #22
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I don't think I've seen that process of insulation. Then again, sometimes I skim through long texts.

My insulation is adequate, I guess, considering I have nothing to compare bus insulation with except my current spray foam job. If I was headed to Alaska I'd be adding a lot more insulation, particularly to the currently uninsulated floor.

My roof is pretty noisy during a downpour. I didn't leave an airspace during the insulation process in the ceiling. There's no heat loss issue but the roof does transmit noise quite well. Hindsight is 20/20.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:42 PM   #23
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Bus insulation needs to be something that eliminates air and humidity from contacting the interior metal skin surfaces of the bus. I don't believe another fiberous material would work any better than OEM insulation at stopping humidity from contacting the interior skin surfaces.
Sorry to the op for going sorta off topic, but ... I just had a thought.

Has anybody considered neoprene? Most retailers claim R6 per 1", and even cheap old me wasn't scared off by the prices. Holds up to water real good too ... just ask any diver! I just did a quick look and you can get peal-and-stick and it comes in colors. It can't be all that hard to put up, and given the glues they have today, I wouldn't want to get any stuck on me.

I wonder if it could hold up to being installed on the outside? That's the way it works with divers.

I think I might look into this a bit more ... and see if I can put together a price estimate.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:09 PM   #24
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As a scuba diver I never considered neoprene to be cheap. It certainly does have good insulative qualities as any diver knows.

I'd be afraid that peal and stick glue would eventually let go during hot weather unless there was something pinning it against the skin of the bus.

My floor is nearly 200 sf, so the roof has to be close to the same, then add the sf of the walls minus the windows. If it's anything like carpeting it's going to add up fast.

Interesting idea.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:07 PM   #25
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As a scuba diver I never considered neoprene to be cheap. It certainly does have good insulative qualities as any diver knows.

I'd be afraid that peal and stick glue would eventually let go during hot weather unless there was something pinning it against the skin of the bus.

My floor is nearly 200 sf, so the roof has to be close to the same, then add the sf of the walls minus the windows. If it's anything like carpeting it's going to add up fast.

Interesting idea.
Neoprene has some great qualities, but at 1" thick it will be heavy and expensive.

I'd like to see a quote though
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:28 PM   #26
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I'm guessing that neoprene would be more expensive than spray foam. No factual data in that guess.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:03 AM   #27
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Neoprene has some great qualities, but at 1" thick it will be heavy and expensive.

I'd like to see a quote though
... this is just a quick look while I'm having my coffee ... but this shop: Neoprene Sheets, Rubber, Poker Table Foam, Neoprene Pads

has 80" X 48" X 1" "Hi Quality" sheets at about $120.00 each. 80 X 48 X 1/2" is $54.00

This is Black ... with no glue, pressure sensitive or otherwise.

The ceiling in my Short Bus has an area about 8.3 feet by 10 feet (100 in. X 120 in.) ... I'd be willing to guess that the total cost would run about $400.00.

For those of us who don't want to strip out their ceiling, I guess the pay off would be a saving in labor ... but I guess you could say using this stuff would encapsulate the dirty nasty germ-laden insulation that is already between the ceiling and the roof ... maybe that's a plus too.

I don't know how this stacks up against proper spray foams, but it does have the appeal of ease of installation IF it can be glued to the ceiling's surface ... OR the outer skin of the roof ... which is also a pretty slick idea.

BUT (...and a big ol' hairy butt it is) there is a LOT more to learn about this stuff before anyone goes firing up the Plastic Bank of America and starts sticking this stuff on the ceiling. Grades of hardness and flexibility for example ... and I don't even know what else yet.

BTW ... this site tells us the following about neoprene:

Neoprene foam, also known as Monarch, is a soft, flexible, and durable form-fitting sponge rubber that provides good thermal and moisture insulation. It is resistant to ozone, sunlight, oxidation, and many chemicals and petroleum derivatives. Neoprene will also resist breakdown by water and air and is able to be isolated by virtue of its unique molecular structure. Practical applications of neoprene foam include athletic equipment like gloves, waders, wetsuits, and knee and elbow pads. In an industrial capacity, neoprene functions as insulation, expansion joint filler in masonry and concrete work, gaskets, and weather stripping.

And I just bet it would help out with all them thermal bridges we all have to cross when we get to them ... but I don't take nobody's word for NOTHING!

BTW ... I am still looking for anybody who used it ... and found out why it won't work.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:11 AM   #28
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I'd be afraid that peal and stick glue would eventually let go during hot weather unless there was something pinning it against the skin of the bus.
I am kinda leery about having all this neoprene (or other peal-n'-stick stuff) hanging around my ears some sunny summer day.

This is a little frustrating for me.
As a life long mechanic, I cannot tell you the number of times I have come across some glued on insulation, rubber, foam or otherwise that hung on with the tenacity of a tick, and resisted all efforts of a normal human to gouge it off ... and yet ... just ask a couple ounces of foam to stick to the roof of a bus

Heck ... they even glue sheet metal onto Jet Planes for pete's sake.

There's gotta be something out there that would work.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:58 AM   #29
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I am kinda leery about having all this neoprene (or other peal-n'-stick stuff) hanging around my ears some sunny summer day.

This is a little frustrating for me.
As a life long mechanic, I cannot tell you the number of times I have come across some glued on insulation, rubber, foam or otherwise that hung on with the tenacity of a tick, and resisted all efforts of a normal human to gouge it off ... and yet ... just ask a couple ounces of foam to stick to the roof of a bus

Heck ... they even glue sheet metal onto Jet Planes for pete's sake.

There's gotta be something out there that would work.
Well it's about 5X the cost of foamboard, and probably 2x the cost of spray foam. It would be prohibitively expensive for my 40-footer, but if someone used it in a Shorty I'd be interested to hear their findings.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:18 PM   #30
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Well it's about 5X the cost of foamboard, and probably 2x the cost of spray foam. It would be prohibitively expensive for my 40-footer, but if someone used it in a Shorty I'd be interested to hear their findings.
It IS spendy ... but it would (could!) be a complete job IF (REAL big IF) it can be gotten in a nice white AND a way could be found to keep stuck on the ceiling.

The glossy white would go a long way to keeping things bright in the bus.

As I'm digging around trying to learn about this stuff, it looks like dealing with seams wouldn't be much of a problem. So far it looks like some 2" by 1/16 strips would glue on and cover gaps.

I wonder if this stuff on the ceiling might help out with sound. I dunno.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:41 PM   #31
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I'd be afraid that peal and stick glue would eventually let go during hot weather unless there was something pinning it against the skin of the bus.
I'm sure that a mechanical fastener could be found ... the plastic thingies that hold interior door panels on cars for example.

But, as in your initial specification, "Bus insulation needs to be something that eliminates air and humidity from contacting the interior metal skin surfaces of the bus." to work properly this stuff MUST stick 100% to the ceiling. My concern would be condensation forming and mucking up everything

I really wish we had a line item for just insulation somewhere on this board. It really is a big topic.

BTW ... many apologies for trashing up the op's thread.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:18 PM   #32
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Beyond the mentioned problems, from what I'm understanding you want to glue neoprene panels to the interior ceiling panels. The issue I have with that is humidity will still make its way into the ceiling cavity between the outer skin and interior ceiling panels likely allowing condensation during cold weather, or even while using propane. My question is where does that dripping moisture go? My understanding of the replacement insulation was to eliminate the condensation.

I was very reluctant to pulling my interior ceiling panels. I spent my first winter with OEM insulation and perforated ceiling panels that allowed me to experienced just exactly how much water could drip inside the bus. It's not that the amount of water was excessive, but rather what that water could do over a long period of time.

Argument in favor of the interior application of neoprene on the ceiling panels is that tall people wouldn't hurt their heads when they bump the ceiling.

Concerning the application of neoprene to exterior surfaces, you obviously couldn't drive your bus where there are any limbs that might damage the neoprene. Also I'd suspect the joints between neoprene panels on the exterior would fail over time.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:17 PM   #33
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Beyond the mentioned problems, from what I'm understanding you want to glue neoprene panels to the interior ceiling panels. The issue I have with that is humidity will still make its way into the ceiling cavity between the outer skin and interior ceiling panels likely allowing condensation during cold weather, or even while using propane. My question is where does that dripping moisture go? My understanding of the replacement insulation was to eliminate the condensation.
Unless I'm mis-understanding, this post seems to be a little different than what you originally said:

Originally Posted by Robin97396
Bus insulation needs to be something that eliminates air and humidity from contacting the interior metal skin surfaces of the bus. I don't believe another fiberous material would work any better than OEM insulation at stopping humidity from contacting the interior skin surfaces.

IF, (big IF!) a proper adhesive could be found and the neoprene properly affixed to the ceiling, then it should, "eliminate air and humidity from contacting the interior metal skin surfaces of the bus" as you asked.

From this sentence, I gathered that you were looking for something that would glue on to the ceiling (i.e., "interior metal skin surfaces"), something with R value and something waterproof and something that would "eliminate air and humidity from contacting" those surfaces. I'm pretty sure IF (see the above comment on "if's".) It could be glued on firmly, like a coat of paint, I think neoprene would do all that.

If you are looking to seal the space from the outside of the roof to the outside of the ceiling (inside the bus) I don't think there is ANYTHING that will glue to the interior metal skin surfaces of the bus that will perform like that.

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Beyond the mentioned problems, from what I'm understanding you want to glue neoprene panels to the interior ceiling panels. The issue I have with that is humidity will still make its way into the ceiling cavity between the outer skin and interior ceiling panels likely allowing condensation during cold weather, or even while using propane. My question is where does that dripping moisture go? My understanding of the replacement insulation was to eliminate the condensation.

I was very reluctant to pulling my interior ceiling panels. I spent my first winter with OEM insulation and perforated ceiling panels that allowed me to experienced just exactly how much water could drip inside the bus. It's not that the amount of water was excessive, but rather what that water could do over a long period of time.
Let me ask, after all your experience, have you pulled out your interior ceiling panels and insulated (spray foam or other) your ceiling? What choice of insulation did you make. How did you deal with all them thermal bridges when you came to them? Were you able to beat the humidity/moisture problem?

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Argument in favor of the interior application of neoprene on the ceiling panels is that tall people wouldn't hurt their heads when they bump the ceiling.
I guess it's a good thing I'm not very tall.

Man, have we trashed the op's thread. REALLY sorry!
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:39 PM   #34
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Robin's bus is spray foamed.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:14 PM   #35
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There are several methods of insulating a bus, or RV, that are accepted and that work.
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Robin's bus is spray foamed.

Ahhhh, and there we have it. When Robin is talking about interior metal skin surfaces of the bus, he's REALLY talking about the inside of the roof ... NOT the ceiling.

Therefore, the only accepted and proven method to insulate the ceiling is to take down the metal, rip out the old insulation, spray in the foam ON THE INTERIOR SIDE OF THE ROOF, install a new ceiling and down the road you go.

Anything that is glued onto the interior side of the ceiling has been proven not to work and is not accepted.

OK, fine with me.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:20 PM   #36
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Perhaps we do have some misunderstanding.

Yes, I spray foamed after removing the interior ceiling panels and OEM rockwool insulation. I no longer have a condensation problem on the ceiling or walls, but the OEM windows collect condensation like mad. I use styrofoam rigid insulation panels to put over the windows during the current type of cold weather we're having here. With the windows covered I am able to heat this bus with a very small ceramic electric heater that is about 6" by 8". I'm sure you've seen these heaters at Goodwill. The only condensation issue I have now is the glass.

My understanding of your intentions, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you plan to glue neoprene to the interior ceiling panels rather than the interior surface of the skin. If I'm wrong, then my appologies. The only way to stop the condensation is to remove the ceiling panels and insulate the area as much as possible, then put some other type of durable interior ceiling panels up. I have spray foam, then I put up plywood as the interior ceiling replacement panels. Nothing fancy at all, and as economically done as possible.

Insulating the ceiling panels themselves versus insulating the inside area of the skin of the bus are two different things. I thought about somehow tenting the interior of my bus to stop the annoying dripping through those perforated ceiling panels, but that would be a temporary fix. The condensation would still occur creating new problems as the water ran to the floor.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I have stated different things at different stages of this build. I had a condensation issue, but that no longer exists. Ask CB if I wanted to pull my metal ceiling panels down. He had to push me a little. I'm glad it's done and I'm much more comfortable now. It was a lot of work and it took me more time than most people, but I'm permanently disabled, so I give myself more time to get things done. It was a real beotch. I'm still not done as I enter my third year, but yes the insulation is done. One winter of dripping was enough.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:28 PM   #37
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Perhaps we do have some misunderstanding.

My understanding of your intentions, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you plan to glue neoprene to the interior ceiling panels rather than the interior surface of the skin. If I'm wrong, then my apologies.
I have no intentions. No apologies needed, heck, I didn't even think we were arguing.

I was only responding to my understanding of your statement, the "interior metal skin surfaces of the bus" and trying to keep condensation from forming on them. Neoprene came to mind. It seems to work as a beer cozy.

No probs.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:51 PM   #38
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I'd love to see someone try a different type of insulation. I wasn't completely satisfied with my spray foam, but then again I'm working with a 20 year old bus.

I did think you were getting upset with my negative attitude toward neoprene insulation, especially after I was so negative about the wood fibre insulation. I don't want to be negative, but this is often about stopping other people from wasting money. I certainly don't know sheite about wood fibre insulation, and neoprene to me is a dive suite. I've had five buses, but this is the first one I've insulated. I'm still learning and appreciate being told when I'm wrong. That saves me from mistakes and wasted money.

As I've said before, you are a patient man.
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:00 PM   #39
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That one is between ROBIN and THE WIZZER?
I have thoughts and opinions about that topic but I will keep them to myself for now.
My post is about ROCKWOOL or (ROXUL as some have called it).
Most school buses probably didn't come with ROCKWOOL in it.
Mine only had the plain old un-faced batt YELLOW (if new) fiberglass insulation in it that might have been an R3 value as a loosely batted (woven,spun?)
ROCKWOOL is brown or green for the newer stuff and is very different.
It is still an open cell insulation.
It is batted a lot tighter than traditional insulation which means it's R-value is higher because it is woven tighter.
The thicker it is the more R-value.
I have been through a lot of fire protection and fire proofing schools and 3M,HILTI,Specseal,MetaCaulk all require and use ROCKWOOL in 99% of there construction fire proofing systems.
I have Torn apart underground steam piping system in side walk tunnels that were insulated with ROCKWOOL insulation that had been in water for years and even though the tunnel walls,bottoms,roof all had everything in the world growing on it the ROCKWOOL was only wet and almost looked like it was new when I cut into it to remove it after around 20 years in service in a tunnel where the pump might have worked for a few years?
No mold or mildew there?
If anyone does want to work with.
The rocks that look like little pieces of tar are normal.
And if you think regular fiberglass insulation is itchy then you definitely want to cover up for this.
Baby powder before you do it will save you for any fibred insulation.
I ain't an insulation guru and I have NO BUS experience with this ROXUL/ROCKWOOL material but a lot of construction/destruction experience with it since 96 and I can't say it is better than spray foam which is still open cell(especially once it is cut back) or foam board which is solid but has seams (most don't tape up on the important back side).
Not an insulation GURU but have been around many different scenarios with many different types?
For me?
POLYISO is the best on the market.
I used scraps Polyiso board 2" thick from a job I was on to completely insulate all of my holding tanks.
Which made them be friction fit in between the frame and body, my framing to support them,freeze protection to a point ,road debris protection cause they are behind the rear axle.
The board insulation is a cheaper version of the POLYISO idea.
No matter what? If you use a ridgid insulation whether fibreouse or foam the edges should be mitred to fit tight to each other.
Just google how to cut insulation to fit a 14' round diameter tank.
They actually make tools for the pitch,angle,degree to be perfect? But once you get everything right in your head and your hand?
Go for it.
There is also a bucket of sealer,mud,mastic they sell to put in the joints.
If your insulation supplier wants to also sell you mud and tape I wouldn't shy away from it because it is needed and should be used?
Most of that is from my GOVT construction experience and I am learning this year from an out in town contractor that I am trying to work with how the off base **** goes and I ain't liking it?
Sorry ?
Gotta go
Hope everyone has a good nite
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Old 12-07-2017, 06:09 PM   #40
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I did think you were getting upset with my negative attitude toward neoprene insulation, especially after I was so negative about the wood fibre insulation.
...
As I've said before, you are a patient man.
Not a bit ... I thought we were discussing the topic ... you know ... an honest give and take conversation.

... and I had a ball looking at what I could find about neoprene as insulation. I found myself on boating sites. They seem to have insulation issues just like us. Who knew?

As for patience ... it must be from working on all them old Brit sports cars. No insulation ... and a whole lotta rust.
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