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Old 12-27-2013, 07:08 PM   #1
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Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
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1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I really blew this. Since I'm new to this group I didn't think to mention this in it's own separate thread.
This Crown is the twin to the one I just bought and is located in Arizona. It was originally bought and
spec'd by a desert school district who then retired it sometime last year. It is a 1989 40ft three-axle
300 hp turbo Cummins. Transmission is an Eaton Roadranger 10spd Over-drive(RTO). Suspension is
standard springs on the front with both rear axles being air-ride suspension for a somewhat better
ride. The thing that makes this a truly one of a kind deal is that it has engine driven full bus,
factory air conditioning, (desert school district, remember) and it's all still there but maybe not in
currently running condition. This means that the overall insulation in walls and roof are enhanced
and way better than the normal already good Crown insulation. Indicated mileage on the odometer
shows 61K miles but of course I'm pretty sure it's rolled at least once so make that maybe 160k. In
point of fact there isn't any real way to know actual mileage except to say considering typical
home to school type school district service it's safe to say this bus probably has something less
than 200k total on it. In my experience this is not even enough to get a Crown properly broken-in.
The twin I bought and drove home was new bus tight and the shift linkage had no slop in it at all.
Asking price is only $4k but the down side is that if not bought or stopped he will be sending it to
the scrapper my the end of this month. I know it's only a few days, that's what I blew by not putting
this up on it's own sooner. It's as close as anyone could ever get to buying a brand new not even
broke-in Crown with a full set of 10 (plus spare 11) nearly new Goodyear rubber all around and zero
issues. If anyone is seriously interested and can actually put up the money to secure this one contact
me. Since I'm so new I don't know all the rules about private communications between members but
maybe the Moderators can help me out and facilitate or inform me or buyer on how to communicate
directly. Thanks all and please excuse me for not giving more time on this one but I'm not in the bus
buying or selling business and don't normally think along these lines.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:40 PM   #2
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

My plate is full but I would have jumped on this.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:51 PM   #3
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

That's a nice and rare engine / tranny combo.

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Old 12-27-2013, 11:32 PM   #4
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I know of a Gillig with a pancake Cummins and an 18 speed I think. Tandem drive axles too. It wasn't a school bus. It was built for a movie studio. Also wasn't 300HP.
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Old 12-29-2013, 10:43 PM   #5
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Location: Edinburg, TX
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Year: 1973
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Chassis: 40 ft super coach
Engine: 855 cu in Cummins 250 hp
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I drove a crown one time years ago before I even knew anything about them with a roadranger in it. I only made one trip with it and then just because I happened to be available and was licensed to do so. Later we acquired our 1973 Crown 40 footer with a six speed Allison and 250hp. It is the one listed elsewhere for sale. There were times going up and down mountains in California, Oregon, Colorado, Wyoming and elsewhere that I would sure liked to have had the extra horses and gears!

Our bus has over 400,000 on it and the engine starts and runs like a new one. If cared for they are nigh onto indestructible. Nice thing about it is that nearly everything can be purchased from a truck parts dealer when there are issues. The air ride back in back would be nice although the drivers in Yellowstone Park who used to drive them there swore by the spring suspension and low center of gravity for cornering. Our tandems are on leaf springs but still the ride back through the middle of the bus was amazingly smooth. The place it gets a little wilder is up front sitting ahead of the steer axle. There were many times I wised for the floating ride of air suspension up there. On the other hand, springs beat air suspension hands down for stability on the corners and in the wind.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:58 PM   #6
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

So, did this beauty get scrapped? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 01-10-2014, 05:10 AM   #7
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Join Date: Dec 2013
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Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I turns out that it might still be available, for a little bit longer. If I can find a cash buyer for it I'm prepared to
do anything I can to help get it in shape to travel and even deliver it for a buyer and or help train them to
drive it. I've put together a web page for it with details and pictures for anyone interested in seeing what
a terrific Crown can look like when almost new. (except for the desert dust) it's been there for some months.

The link is http://www.elegantnetsol.com/crown/index.html

Enjoy it and please help me find someone to buy it and save it.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:31 AM   #8
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

hey,
where exactly is this located? and do you know if it is road ready? as in, would i be able to drive it to maryland right off the bat?
it's really great you're keeping an eye out on this crown.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:39 PM   #9
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 156
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

Check out this webpage I put up with pics and details about the Crown

www.elegantnetsol.com

The bus is located in Arizona near Bullhead City. It is in a locked and secured yard, which just happens
to be a scrapping business. He bought them both and then had second thoughts about scrapping such fine
examples of near new Crowns. He's done a miserable job of advertising them and I only found out about
them from a friend who lived in the area who spotted the A/C condenser on the side. I made my best deal
and tried to get them both but just couldn't afford too, so I took the one and am now getting the word
out to anyone serious enough to put up the $4k cash and get this extremely low mileage unbelievable
condition bus away from it's scrapping fate. Time is of the essence and anyone serious and able to do it
should contact me and I will do all I can to help facilitate the purchase, training and delivery of it.

Just to be clear on the status of this particular Crown, it's one of a pair of twins spec'd and bought by
a California desert school district from Crown Coach. They were equipped with upgraded insulation and
factory air conditioning. The largest Cummins engine and overdrive ten speed transmission, with rear air-ride
suspension, and a host of other goodies way beyond what was normal for school districts to order. They
were both retired directly from school bus certified service and driven to the location where they are now.
They have been sitting for a year and are only dusty inside because of that. They are both immaculate and
have no rust or corrosion of any kind and just a few driver rash scrapes on the body. No broken windows, and
once started and cleaned up a little they could both be put right into commercial charter service and run
for another 20 years with no problem. Since they have highway (not 55mph) gearing they are very special.

I bought the other twin to this one and when I went to pick it up I spent a few hours removing the school
bus lettering and covering the red flashing lights. After having to replace the two 8D batteries because they
wouldn't hold a charge long enough to crank it over, It fired right up and I checked it out closely, there was
no smoke, no fluid or air leaks, all fluids were still topped up, no unusual noises and in fact the engine
sounded just like a tight and nearly new engine should sound, half a tank of fuel, all lights worked and the
tires were near new and in fine shape. I drove it on a short road test and then filled it up with fuel and
drove it straight to LA. I didn't baby it either, I wanted to see how it would do in a real world scenario. I
pushed it hard up the 7% grade out of Needles and it topped the grade at 53mph in 9th gear (direct 1:1), no
smoke other than faint load type exhaust, no attempt to get hot, no rattles or body squeaks, typical solid
Crown feel and sounds, very tight transmission linkage, steering, and pedals. Engine governed speed was above
2300rpm which made me a little nervous since I don't like taking these above 2200rpm for any length of time
and that's for both the Detroit 6-71 and the Cummins, they are both designed 2200rpm engines. I don't really
know what the governor is set at but I will look into it later. On the trip home I got 60mph@2000rpm in 9th
and 68mph@2000 in 10th (overdrive) with no real idea what the top speed is, but you can do the math yourself.
Like I said I drove it back in one shot and didn't have any trouble with it, and I know how they should act
when everything is working properly. I pushed it hard and stressed things and there was no hint of anything
at all wrong with it in any way. I'm very happy and looking forward to getting started on the conversion.


As to the status and condition of the bus still available I can only verify the visual condition and assume it
will operate just like the one I bought. There are two issues I know of, in the pics at the site you'll notice
the empty battery trays, that's the first issue. It is built to take two 8D batteries and these can be had
fairly cheap either used or rebuilt instead of buying them new. I've even read on this site that a single
AGM battery can be used and will have enough to crank the engine, I'll be checking on this for later. The
second issue is what I've only been told but unable to verify, and that is that the 12V 220A alternator
doesn't seem to be charging. Since this bus was driven in good condition to it's current location I think it
may be safe to assume that someone at the yard may have unintentionally done something and damaged
the system once it arrived. It has an external separate regulator and I'm sure that any competent automotive
electrical repair guy would have no trouble getting this fixed. It may be nothing more than diodes in the
regulator or something else fairly simple, I can't say for sure but it needs to be resolved. Even in a worst case
situation that it might take too long or cost too much there is a pretty simple way to get it taken care of and
fixed up enough to drive it away. Crowns usually only came with 50-80A alternators and you can see them on
this site in some of the conversion threads, it wouldn't be a big deal to just get a used one from a wrecking
yard with a built-in regulator and bolt it in and hook it up to the system, the 220A monster is only there to
support the huge A/C fan loads. A smaller one is all that's needed to handle all vehicle loads. Take the big one
out and put in a smaller one and drive it home. I'm 99.9% confident that once the bus is started and checked
out you can drive it to Baltimore and back as many times as you want without any troubles.

I can be available to meet you in Arizona and offer my help in getting it roadworthy again and if you're interested
I would be happy to help you drive it home and train you as we go in the arcane and joyful art of how to feed
and properly care for a Crown. If you don't like the idea of driving it yourself all the way home I can be
persuaded to deliver it all the way for you. Road trips in a Crown are immensely fun and go together like peas
and carrots.

Since I live in the LA area I see Crowns still in service all the time, but the reason I jumped on these two so
fast was their equipment and options, extreme low miles, desert climate, school district maintenance history,
and overall gentle use to date. There are many Crowns becoming available, and most are a whole lot more money,
but the problem is that every commercial and school operator still using them today knows that they will have
to get rid of them by Dec 2014. Think about this, a Crown will absorb a huge amount of deferred maintenance and
still be useable, but if you knew you had to get rid of yours soon, just how much would you spend on major repairs
in the coming year. This is one factor overlooked by most folks buying used Crowns. Crowns are very easy to work
on and parts are readily available, and any Crown can be made to run like brand new, all it takes is money. If
you can get one already in near new condition and treated well it's entire life you should never have to spend
any money on major components for as long as you owned it. A private bus conversion owner could never put as
many miles on it in 50 years compared to what they were designed to take in service with a 30 year life. Think
about it. There's much more I can say but this is not the place for it.

Contact me direct at my email below if your are serious and ready to buy it and I'll do anything I can to help.

mikemcc2k@yahoo.com

Thanks
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:41 PM   #10
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 156
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I forgot the rest of the website link. oops

it's www.elegantnetsol.com/crown/index.html

Sorry about that.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:06 PM   #11
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 287
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Crown Super Coach
Chassis: Built on a Crown Chassis
Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

Here's the deal. I have contacted this guy with regard this Crown. Or should I say alleged Crown. Contacted him last Night. He said he would get back to me today, after calling the Owner to ascertain whether or not this Crown had been scrapped. Said it was still alive Last weekend. NEVER HEARD A WORD BACK. That may be because I followed up my initial email, after giving it some thought advising him of this.

I want to deal directly with the owner of this Crown, I don't need you to teach me how to drive it: I don't need you to travel from your home in California to make repairs for the Crown that you claim are needed. I deed to deal directly with the Owner regard the sale of this Crown, if you would like a finders fee that's all good. I have no issue with that. Just decide what would be fair compensation and we'll go from there.

If any of you have looked at the web-page or muddled through the thousands of words, which frequently contradict one another, or are simply wary of his perceptions; many of his representations I hold to be patently false. Being that I have owned a 300HP Turbo charged 40 ft Crown and put many, many, many thousands of miles on it: I'm not going to get into a point counter point to rebut the many incorrect assertions.........my interest is to simply inform this board that this "seller" who's not the "seller" but a want to be middle man who appears to be as scatterbrained as his posts. I also contacted him and apprised him of my intentions to post here, and I also apprised him that I would be candid. If the object of this game is and was an altruistic endeavor to save a Crown, which I wholly support, and if the Crown has subsequently been scrapped, I lay that directly at the door step of this guy. There's no way such a Late Model Crown could have or would have not been saved if this had been gone about in the correct matter.

If anyone out there is aware of where this Crown is, or can provide me with a means of contacting the seller directly, it would be greatly appreciated.

Incidentally, I just purchased a 35 ft 85 Crown out of the Tranquility School district via Interschola: It has the 300HP Big Cam Turbo Cummins, with a new block and a fresh rebuild 40,000 miles ago, and has the Eaton Fuller 5 speed.........very jazzed: You can find photos of in on my Face Book page CROWNING AROUND dedicated to the pleasures of Crown ownership as well as to memorialize the beautiful Coaches of other Makers past and present. Check it our and Aloha to you all.............. moki

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 450&type=1
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:19 PM   #12
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Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket_kitten
hey,
where exactly is this located? and do you know if it is road ready? as in, would i be able to drive it to maryland right off the bat?
it's really great you're keeping an eye out on this crown.

Notice the answer was never provided for this post...............just a lot more gibberish................"where exactly is this located?" Answer. "Somewhere near Bullhead Arizona...........moki
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:28 PM   #13
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Year: 1986
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Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
Rated Cap: 78
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycal
I know of a Gillig with a pancake Cummins and an 18 speed I think. Tandem drive axles too. It wasn't a school bus. It was built for a movie studio. Also wasn't 300HP.
Even a 220 Cummins with an 18 speed would have been a good driver.........always in the hp/torque curve............Of course 300HP would be off the hook............you would be able to get a speeding ticket climbing a wall.
Moki..............
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:50 PM   #14
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 287
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Crown Super Coach
Chassis: Built on a Crown Chassis
Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
Rated Cap: 78
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

In fairness to Mike.........I just received an email from him where he expressed his perspective and clarified to some extend he circumstances upon which this Crown is held......I reprint here in it's entirety his correspondence with me: It's only fair, after my remarks, he should have his point of view expressed here.


Brant,

Hang on there guy, I just got off the phone with the owners wife and she's the one to deal with.
I called her at 10 this morning and she just called me back. Please don't fly off the handle and
start throwing accusations around until you know all the facts. You only contacted me for the
first time this morning at 2:15 am and it's been just over 12 hours. The bus is still available and
will be until someone walks in and hands them $4k dollars cash. They are closing their scrap
yard business (which is where it sits right now) and moving to Colorado as soon as it's cleaned
out and the business sold. While waiting for her to call me I've been looking over your Facebook
page. I don't do Facebook so could only see the public stuff without getting an account or signing
up. I noticed that you just acquired the 35 ft cummins on Jan 7th. Congrats. I have no trouble
putting you in touch with the seller except for one little thing, he's just about to blow his top at
still having the bus still there and as he gets closer to cleaning out his yard and he's more agitated
and just wants **** done and over with so he can move on with life. I have a rapport with his wife
and he wants me to deal with her on this. I can get you in touch with her but she reminded me
that they have absolutely no way to do anything with the bus. They don't have employees, no
batteries, no one who can drive it, (or even move it), and certainly can't be bothered with looking
for anyplace to store it. All they want is for someone to give them the cash and get it the hell out
of their yard. I can help you with that if you want. I did the other one and I can get this one too and
put batteries in it and drive it home on the batteries to L.A. where I live without screwing with the
alternator. I post all that on skoolie for those folks who are not experienced with buses and what's
involved with dealing with them. I'm the real deal and if you work with me I'll let you pay him direct
and I'll go and pick it up for you and get it into my storage place with my other one. There's no way
according to her that you can get any help from them in getting it running or into storage in Bullhead
city. $4k and it won't creep up and it all goes to him and a finders fee would be appreciated, and I'm
not trying to make money or re-sell it I just want to save a true gem. It should be safe for the time
being or until someone walks in with cash or they get all the real estate stuff done and they move to
Colorado. Get back to me and lets keep talking.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:50 PM   #15
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 156
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

I'm glad that you posted my email. I'm not so glad that you made such assumptions without giving time for a
response (less than 18 hours) from the time I first heard from you via email last night at 215am. I'm trying to
tread carefully with this owner because if he blows up and says "screw it" he'll just scrap the bus, he is a scrap
yard, after all. The owner is extremely difficult to contact and it's not uncommon to have a day go by before
they answer the phone. Sometimes she picks right up. They are insanely busy trying to get things closed down
so they can move, and replying to me is a nuisance. I emailed you as soon as I had the correct info. In your
email to me you wanted them to put batteries in it and find a storage yard nearby until you got it in the Spring.
That's not possible, and was one of things I needed to to talk to her about and verify. If you can arrange to
have someone like your brother go and get it then go for it. Or you can let me help, like I said in my email, I
can go get it and drive it back here to LA and keep it with my other one (the twin to this one) until you're
ready to pick it up. All I ask is that you cover the $100/mo storage fee it will cost to keep it here. You see
the dilemma I have? I can't take the risk of buying it myself and paying for storage until I sell it and it can't
stay where it's at with the threat of being scrapped. For anyone else ready and able to buy it I say again that
I will help as needed to get it out of the scrap yard and offer safe time until you pick it up, but I can't afford
to pay for storage, which was one of the reasons I didn't get them both at the same time.

By the way, I replied to the requests for where it was located via direct email to them because that's how
they contacted me. I guess I'm unfamiliar with protocol on replying on forums like this, Mea Culpa. You may
have noticed all that text I pasted into my email reply to you regarding the status of the bus, It was from
one of my earlier replies to another member on this forum. I mean no disrespect to anyone regarding the
ability to drive or fix any bus. But in my looking at the posts and some of the inquiries regarding the Crown
I've received, it seems plain to me that most want an automatic transmission and the number of folks
comfortable with the idea of buying a Crown and then learning to drive it, especially a 10spd, appeared to
appreciate my offer to help them learn and even help drive it home with them if they wanted. I don't sit
at the computer and look at this site all day long so sometimes it takes a few hours to get a reply, I have
a life, that goes for my email too. I check as often as I can especially until I can get the Crown taken care
of, but now I have some re-assurance, that barring some cash buyer walking in off the street, at least for
a couple of weeks, it should still be safe, and yes I will be happy to put a buyer in touch directly with
the current owner, but only if they are ready to hand or wire him the cash before picking it up.
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Old 01-11-2014, 08:16 PM   #16
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 287
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Crown Super Coach
Chassis: Built on a Crown Chassis
Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
Rated Cap: 78
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

With all that said I think it will be instructive as to how these "transactions" can unwind.

There is a lot going on with this: firstly a great deal of faith has to be placed in you and your appraisal of the condition of this Crown......though the web page does include many photo's.

We are at a place where we might be able to make something happen. But again this isn't Ebay with buyer protections, so if the Crown winds up being a far cry from your assessment the buyer is stuck in Bullhead, or the vicinity, with a 40ft Yellow Elephant. Been there done that. Not much fun.

So I have emailed Mike with how I would like to proceed and put this Crown in the Hamper. It will require give and take on the part of the Seller. It is not possible for me to just jump up and go grab their Crown. And I don't have the funds to be paying for Mike's time to take care of what would amount to my responsibilities......so we'll see.................

But I do want to express my thanks to Mike for getting back to me...........that's what I ultimately was desirous of to move this along or forget it.........Moki

I have added photo's of 3 of the buses I currently Own. Two Crowns a Flxible Flxiliner and a 28ft Bluebird transit
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 7crown6.jpg (225.9 KB, 234 views)
File Type: jpg 2.jpg (420.2 KB, 234 views)
File Type: jpg 86crown2.jpg (579.7 KB, 234 views)
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Old 01-11-2014, 08:54 PM   #17
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 287
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Crown Super Coach
Chassis: Built on a Crown Chassis
Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
Rated Cap: 78
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

"Overdrive 10th gear did 68mph@2000 rpm. Verified because the twin to this was purchased and driven home" This is the first assertion you make that I have a quibble with Mike..........Just because the Crown in question is a "twin" doesn't necessitate the other Crown will perform the same: That you drove your Bus and it performed as you cite........does not warrant in any way shape or form that this Crown will do the same. Have you driven it. Have you even seen it run? Have you driven the remaining Bus? What leads you to believe it even runs at all. That it was driven to the site? You spend an inordinate time talking about the performance of your bus, "engine tight like an almost new engine" "steering" etc...........that has zero to do with the bus in question........Follow? You go on further to say:

"Anyone interested and able to pay $4K cash will get a once in a lifetime vehicle that is capable of outlasting all of us.
There's no reason why a (non-CAL) Charter Operator couldn't use it either, with no modification, it's ready as is to start making money for another 30 years."

I can't see how you could possibly make these kind of very far reaching statements: Are you willing to provide a warranty for these assertions? Are you willing to elaborate how you divined these conclusions? Are your opinions base solely on the performance of the Crown you Purchased? You go on to claim that there is 60K on the odometer and further suggest it has gone around once: Every Crown I ever owned, has an odometer capable of registering 999,999 miles, and then it would turn over..........or roll over. I've got trouble with that assertion as well.

Maybe you could take the opportunity to shed some light on how you derived your conclusions: If they are predicated on the performance of the bus you purchased and that alone then, speaking for my self, these "observations" are wholly without context: One cannot divine or extrapolate that the performance, reliability and handling of one Crown will be identical to the handling of the other merely because it is its twin..........And importantly and lastly. Are the pictures you provide on the website pictures of your Crown or pictures of the Crown for Sale............this is extremely important: It seems clear you believe that by IT being a twin, that the Crown for sale will by magic carry the exact characteristics ad the Crown you purchased. Does this belief extend to you posting photos of Your Crown?

Mike; Can you shed some light on how you arrived at your conclusions. Moki
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Old 01-12-2014, 12:12 AM   #18
Skoolie
 
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 156
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

[quote="mokibrabrant"]
If any of you have looked at the web-page or muddled through the thousands of words, which frequently contradict one another, or are simply wary of his perceptions; many of his representations I hold to be patently false. Being that I have owned a 300HP Turbo charged 40 ft Crown and put many, many, many thousands of miles on it: I'm not going to get into a point counter point to rebut the many incorrect assertions.........my interest is to simply inform this board that this "seller" who's not the "seller" but a want to be middle man who appears to be as scatterbrained as his posts. I also contacted him and apprised him of my intentions to post here, and I also apprised him that I would be candid. If the object of this game is and was an altruistic endeavor to save a Crown, which I wholly support, and if the Crown has subsequently been scrapped, I lay that directly at the door step of this guy. There's no way such a Late Model Crown could have or would have not been saved if this had been gone about in the correct matter.


I'm sorry but I feel I have to respond to this or it might look like I'm guilty as charged. I will endeavor to be temperate in my replies. I feel justified in responding because
my reputation and honor has been attacked severely without any proper restraint in either time or waiting for the facts to emerge. I don't hold any hard feelings for Brant
but feel that without at least an attempt to explain myself I fear that I will lose all credibility and any good will I may have created here in my admittedly short time as a member.
He could have given me at least 24 hours and considered that it was 0215 Saturday morning that he made initial contact with me before going all nuclear on me. I am completely
at a loss as to how to explain the urgency and strong emotions expressed, and feel again the need to defend and explain myself in order to clear the air so we can all move
forward with the important stuff. And I admit freely that I joined to get the word out about this Crown in a Forum of like minded folks. Not because I'm trying to make a lot of
money off someone who buys it, but like a famous bank robber once said, when asked why he robbed banks..."because that's where all the money is". That's skoolie.net.
That's where all the like minded Bus Nuts and Conversion folks are who might be able to see the value in acquiring and saving this fine Crown. There's no money in it.

First of all the web page I posted is on my own company domain server and not a Facebook type thing where generating hits is rewarded with rewards of some kind. It was a simple and effective way to get the information and pictures out there, instead of always trying to send back reply emails with all those attachments. It was suggested in one of
the email inquiries I've received about the bus. It took me awhile to put it together but now it's there for all to see. Those pictures are only of the one still available and for sale,
I didn't post any of the one I bought and drove home (except the road test, and one closeup of the A/C ducting) which I noted in the descriptions underneath each image.

Second: I'm not sure what he means about thousands of words.... my posted webpage is descriptive only, and I hope with enough info to satisfy, offering only performance
data as verified on the drive home for reference purposes for those curious about such things, which I see asked all the time in posts. Maybe my posts get a little wordy but
I' m trying to answer as many questions in advance as I can because I don't have the option to make rapid responses all the time. Just trying to be forthright. and I guess I
can be accused of being evangelical about crowns in general and this one in particular because of it's unique pedigree and situation. My neck twitches. I feel the scrappers claw.

Third: "Wary of his perceptions" I'm not sure what he means by this but I can say that "my perceptions" are based on having started driving school buses at 19 yrs of age, with
a well known Charter Co. in Pasadena, CA., in Crowns. They were all Detroit 6-71's, most were 35ft. 5spd, and two 40ft 10spd (except for one 220 cummins 5spd). I drove charters
for a living and put many hundreds of thousands of miles on all types of trips and conditions for several years before moving to highway coaches, and a few more miles. I started
my own bus company with a 1960 40ft 6-71, 10spd, and a Scenicruiser and MC8, and put on a few more miles. I got out of the bus business years ago, (best thing I ever did), but
still kept driving for other companies doing charters and long over the road tours, which I still do today. I really only drove Detroit powered buses most of the time and my time
in Cummins powered Crowns is limited, (I did make one trip to Ft Jones Ca. in a 40ft cummins 5spd ex Long Beach Unified which convinced me that I should look for one with a 10spd for my own conversion) Most of the trips to Ft Jones were with another bus a 40ft 10spd(OD) non-turbo 6-71, which when loaded could barely hold 60mpg, the hills? don't
ask. My perceptions are based on years of experience driving, owning, operating, and doing my own work on them. I only call it as I see it and I wouldn't have bought the twin to
this one and tried so hard for them both unless they are what they are. Low mileage, gently used, with no apparent mechanical issues except the batteries and what I've been
told about the alternator, I always made clear that I was told that and can't confirm it. I suppose you could be wary of my perceptions, but I put my money where my mouth is
and bought one, and my perceptions on the drive back are that it is exactly what I thought it was. A tight and extremely low mileage bus I will never have to spend money on. I offer my perceptions as an experienced and impartial observer of the condition of the bus as I find it today. You can take it or leave it and criticize if you want, but attack?

Third: Contradictions??? Patently False?? Those are some very strong words. Please tell me exactly what I said that was, or is, Patently False or Contradictory, or meant to mislead?
I will admit that breaking it in needing 200k miles could be bit of hyperbole, but remember I'm describing for folks who may not know much about Crowns how heavy duty they are compared to most school buses which may never see 200k miles in their whole lifetime. I've already admitted to being light on the Cummins but all my research indicates that the
Big Cam 300hp engine was designed as a high torque rise engine for better fuel economy and longer life (like that's our problem) with an operating range of 1300rpm to 1900rpm.
When I drove it I noticed that I never felt the governor as I would in a Detroit, it had excursions over 2400rpm and still nothing. This is why I say that I don't know where it is
and as far as I'm concerned I prefer to operate it in the 1300-2000 range for better economy, it pulls just fine in that range by the way. I intend to run it at 2100 as well and I'm
sure it won't hurt a thing, I never said it would hurt it, just that I wasn't comfortable keeping it there, remember 2100 in 10th(OD) was about 73mph. Good on 75mph roads but
not so much anywhere else. My opinions are my own and just as valid as any of the many other opinions I've seen on this and other sites, and I know what's said about opinions.
And I can say the same for yours, interesting and strongly expressed, but still just your opinions and worth just as much. You may attack me and disagree with what I think about
this matter but to accuse me of "incorrect assertions" is harsh indeed and akin to charging and slamming me, hard, for incorrect opinions.

Fourth: You contacted me via email and threatened to post here and "be candid" if I didn't reply immediately, If I read the timestamps correctly you seem to have done just that
about an hour after you sent that email to me. Forget the fact I had no information to reply with, do you think I just sit and stare at this forum and my email all the time? What
made you think that the urgency was so great that you had to start this whole episode without waiting a reasonable amount of time (24hrs) for a reply and all the current facts to be given, Saturday A.M. no less. All I see is a very impulsive response to a somewhat delicate situation that I'm trying to keep under control and you felt the need to blast me with a broadside and poison my efforts to save this Crown. In your very strongly stated "opinion" you feel "There's no way such a Late Model Crown could have or would have not been saved if this had been gone about in the correct matter. "... No way??? How can you say such a thing, and to blame me for it is..is...never mind, it's just not rational. Great Crowns are being scrapped every day, but I know about this one and am doing my best to get it into good and appreciative hands. "and if the Crown has subsequently been scrapped, I lay that directly at the door step of this guy." Well It hasn't been scrapped ....yet and we may have a couple more weeks. Laying that on me? I fail to see the basis for such an assertion. As it happens, it was gone about in all the wrong ways, to save it......by the current scrapper who bought it from the school district. He is off in the boonies
and they were hidden behind 8ft block walls in his yard on a side road. He has done nothing to advertise or get the word out, I only found out about them about three months
ago and I've been the one trying to get a buyer for it, and only thought to put the one that's left up on this site just before Christmas.

I don't present myself as anything other than what I am, I don't have Facebook, Twitter or spend time on sites like this presenting myself as an expert. I am what I am, a guy who has a very long and extensive record and love for all things Crown. And the Holocaust here in California has presented a real opportunity for those folks who can appreciate the
greatness of Crowns and I'm only helping to get a single very fine example saved and into good hands. I will be happy to put any buyer in direct touch with the seller if they really have the cash, I can't take the risk of offending the seller with another looky loo, so I'm acting as an unofficial agent for the seller, all on my own hook, and to keep him soothed.

Brant, if you still want to buy the bus just let me know and I'm still willing to do anything I can to facilitate it, and put you in touch with the seller.

Brant, by the way it might be of interest to say that I have owned for the last 20 years the last remaining examples of a very special rear engined air-ride Crown series ordered by
that very special Pasadena school contractor in 1963. Have your friend with the books at the museum look up these vin numbers, 34473, 34474, 34475, 34476, I think you'll find
them interesting. I bought all that were left (7)from MarkIV Charter who at the time bought that special charter company. Through the years things have happened and I'm left
with only two. They were never considerations for conversion, They need full on, money intensive Restoration as they are truly museum pieces to be preserved at all costs. That
may only be my "perception" of them but once I start to get the word out a little we'll see what other people think about them, and just how special they are.

By the way, if anyone knows who Bill Morgan is I'd encourage you to ask him about me by name Mike McClain and the 60 series Crowns I own. He'll know who I am.
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Old 01-12-2014, 02:16 AM   #19
Skoolie
 
Crown_Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 156
Year: 1989
Coachwork: Crown Coach
Chassis: 40ft 3-axle 10spd O/D, Factory A/C
Engine: 300hp Cummins 855
Rated Cap: 91
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

It appears I'm too slow again to reply, he had two more posts put up before I could reply to the
first one. OK.

Firstly: Yes all the photos are of the very bus in question and the only two that aren't is the one
showing the road test and a forward view of the A/C ducting from the one I bought (I noted that
right under each image, It's right there.

I've been very forthright and honest in explaining that I haven't started or seen this one run, that's
true enough. I have made the assumption based on it's pedigree and that it was (OK, probably)
driven there because I didn't witness it. Based on my experience without being able to start it I
would have very little concern in buying it myself and driving it out of there, as I'm quite sure
it would do, just like the first one I drove out of there. But it's true it's only based on a visual.

OK, I guess that answers that post.

The next post from him:

The questions about weather this one will perform the same as the one I bought are valid enough
and I only used them as an illustration of the probable capabilities of the one for sale. Remember
that my posts and at the webpage have stated that they were both ordered and bought by the same
school district at the same time and they have sequential VIN numbers, which actually means nothing
but I have seen and compared them both and I can say that they are equipped the same with the
only proviso being that somewhere maybe along the line the district changed something like rear
end ratio or something like that I can't see or know without driving it. You don't think I didn't try
the linkage on this one, it feels and so does the wheel the same as the one I bought. As to the
implication that I have to offer a warranty to make such sweeping statements and that it is
outrageous to do so, let me make the point that if I were still in the bus business and I had a
chance to buy this for revenue service, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat and even if it didn't run and
I had to tow it home, I'd still be ahead after repairs and could and would run it for years and
make many times my money back. The only reason I'm not seriously considering it right now
Is the current Crown Holocaust going on in Kalifornia. I stand by what I say, If some out of
state Charter operator wanted to get this even if he had to swap out or do an in-frame on
the engine, lots Crowns going away and possible parts around and about, he would still have a
money maker that would run for years. At a very cheap price. I also never said I trusted the
odometer reading, There's no way to know if it's original or has been replaced through the
years. That happens enough and all I can say is that mine showed 76k miles and they both
came from the same school district which is a verifiable fact, I've seen both pink slips.
You have a point about the rolling over thing I didn't register that and I'm not used to that
particular speedo/tach recording instrument they both have. And I just didn't think too much
about the extra two zeros to the left of the 6, I really had a lot on my plate and I just don't
care that much what shows on an odometer, there's too many ways for them to get whacked.
It's the overall condition and my feeling for what it is and how it's been treated that counts.
I was busy getting mine started and out of there and only looked at this one enough to see
that they are twins, at least at birth. Those BOOKS, which I've seen by the way, when they
were at West Coach in Chino, and your guy who has them should be able to verify the as-
built nature of these two units. Go ahead and keep picking nits if you want to but I stand
by what I've said and seen with my own eyes. If you want to question the exact and specific,
absolute configuration and condition of the bus for sale, then I defer to that and have to
admit that short of starting it and actually driving it to verify it's condition, I can't be really
sure until then. Nobody can. That's fair, but having admitted that I still think the chance
of it being bad are extremely remote. Enough said. I don't think this is productive and I've
offered to go and get it running and verify it is what I think it is. And frankly if someone is
willing to pay a little more for that piece of mind before hand and knowing that it's road
worthy I'm considering a plan B of my own. You seem to imply that I should have pictures
of the one I bought? Is that right? I have some and have resisted putting them up because
it's not relevant to the issue concerning this one for sale. As a matter of fact it is my avatar
photo. I looks exactly the same as this one and when I do put some up there will be no
apparent differences. In time I will but if someone really wants to see it I could start a
thread I guess. I'm not ready to do anything with it yet and there won't be any conversion
pictures to check out. I'm a little blase I guess, to me it's one of many Buses I've had
through the years and I'm not overwhelmed at the hugeness of buying "my very own Bus",
which is of course what everyone else here feels, and rightfully so, it's way cool. But in
a way I'm still in the bus business and drive Charters and Tours with several different
Operators on a casual and part time basis. I have owned four very special Crowns for
the last 20 years, but with no way to use them or restore them they just remind me of
how low on funds I always seem to be. They represent a truly interesting and historic
piece of the Crown history and someday I hope to get them back up and restored.

Brant, can we agree to not beat me about the head and shoulders anymore?
You've made your points and I appreciate the fact that you are trying to
be very candid and call me on some hyperbole and assumptions. Fine.
Until the bus is actually started it can only be assumed to be a twin and run
like mine did when I drove it home. OK?

I hope that satisfies you and everyone else.
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Old 01-12-2014, 03:23 AM   #20
Bus Nut
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 287
Year: 1986
Coachwork: Crown Super Coach
Chassis: Built on a Crown Chassis
Engine: 300HP BIG CAM TURBO 855
Rated Cap: 78
Re: 1989 Crown for sale 40ft Cummins 300hp

OK another couple thousand words but finally we get to the heart of the matter. This is about the Crown........what I take out of your most recent posts is you have not Driven this Crown nor have you ever heard it or seen it run: You sat in a static Crown.............further you hedge your bets when you say that a guy could do an inframe and still be ahead of the game: And more about availability of parts and on and on: Knowing or not knowing when CARB red tags a Crown they typically get the blade of a forklift through the block.........and they go to the Crusher fully intact. In other words no parts come off the Crown. Glass Spindles etc.

So your first portrayal of this Crown as being a "twin" to your own and implying, I've heard this story too many times: "just show up with batteries" and you will be on your way:

I don't want to rehash all this crap. What we actually have is a Crown that you aren't even sure runs: And for the first time I'm now hearing something about someone messed around with the rear end and changed the rear axle ratio. On one hand you say you tried to get the Crown in question started and going. "Don't you think I tried?" On the other you say you had a lot on your plate, didn't notice the extra zero's to the left of the 6 and it just gets more scattered.

I just keep hearing all the things you said, or have written, in the original post, and all the things you have said subsequent to that:

So this is what I know. You don't know if this bus even runs. Though you surely have implied this is one fantastic Bus. Secondly there is a great deal of risk attached to this Bus there is a very real chance there could be issues with the bus far beyond your imagining: If I am selling a bus, any bus, I've driven it or I haven't. I don't go on a happy lark about how another bus that looks like this bus performs. I speak specifically to the Bus that's for Sale.

I have a 1989 Crown for sale: I have never heard this bus run: Nor I have I driven it: Bus is equipped with a 300HP Turbo Cummins as well as a 10 speed Eaton Fuller Road Ranger with OD. Bus appears to be in very Straight unmolested condition, no cracks in glass: Rubber looks to be in great condition, however, though they look roadworthy I cannot tell you their actual age.

I can make no representations to the road worthiness of this Bus. I did inspect the brakes and they appear to be 70% however I can not attest to the their efficacy as I was unable to air up the Bus. I also am unable to attest to the functioning of the gauges, I do not know if any of them work as well as any of the lighting as I was unable to start this Bus and the Bus has no batteries.

There is the chance that this Bus will perform as wonderfully as its twin which I purchased, it is a beautiful bus and one of the Last Tandems ever produced by the Legendary West Coast Manufacturer.

I wish I had taken the time to go through this Crown more thoroughly, but I had so much on my plate. The purchase price of this Crown will be 4000 dollars, roughly a thousand dollars or more above Scrap. The potential for this Crown is off the Hook. But again this will be purchased in As IS condition with no warranty expressed or implied. I have disclosed to the best of my ability the current condition of this Bus................If you have any question please contact me. I will be delighted to answer them as honestly and comprehensively as I can...........Moki

OK Mike. There you go: There is a straight forward add put together by a guy who has sold many Buses..........I'm not going to provide my resume Here......in an attempt to bolster my credibility. I'll let my approach speak for itself. And incidentally there is no reward system for having an educational website on Facebook............It is out of my affection for Crowns, Motor Coach History......and to simply share with others the love I have for these Crowns.....as well as the other Beautifully Crafted Coaches I've either owned and or admired............ those interested may view my site on facebook CROWNING AROUND.

And I submit Mike that you may have a feel for this Crown, you may have an opinion based upon standing in front of it, walking through it, an opinion gleaned vicariously through your own Purchase. Unfortunately none of us have had that luxury. All of us out here have to rely on factual assessment as not to waste our money, our time, your time.....or worse end up with anger and acrimony: If I were an idiot, and embraced your pretty much fictional account of this Bus, showed up and the turbo didn't spool, showed up and the bus wouldn't air up, showed up and it didn't start, was seized, showed up and the electrics were out or worse toast: the steering was out, the differential was geared a 7.17 etc. And I arrived on scene with two brand new batteries and ended up in front of a project.... After how you portrayed this Crown.......I would be big time pissed. You know how I know Mike? Cause it has happened. And it's way uncool. Two facts remain you chose the bus you currently own over this one Why? Is it because you couldn't get it running? And lastly. Any one who wanted to make an informed determination with regard this Crown will and would appreciate, by far, my description of the Crown.......than your description that really was more about describing the Crown you own, as opposed to the Crown that's actually for sale. That's a fact. Had you posted an accurate, succinct, and lucid add for the Crown currently for sale...........things would have been much different............ Moki...........I stand by my criticisms of the style of your ad, and I believe that it is not only hyperbole, but is a wholesale misrepresentation of the vehicle. And that sucks. I would have much preferred it to have been the wondrous machine you described.
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