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Old 01-18-2021, 07:12 PM   #1
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2002 international re3000 worthington

Putting feelers out on this bus. It's got 12,xxx(yes 12,000) original miles. It's been on museum grounds it's whole life. T444e Allison md3060. 44 passenger but full size, not a school bus, real seats. Very nice inside. Air brakes. I have the opportunity to buy it since I work there under contract. It's in North Delaware. If you would be interested in this let me know.
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Old 01-19-2021, 01:35 AM   #2
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...Putting feelers out on this bus... ..If you would be interested in this let me know.

Asking Price? Could be actual original miles. Hours may tell more on a parking lot tram.

Are you considering buying the aforementioned bus for yourself?
Or prospecting for potential buyers?
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Old 01-19-2021, 11:54 AM   #3
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It's absolutely original miles. It's a tour bus for museum grounds. Original owners. I'll have to see if it has an hour gauge. I'm going to buy it to resell possibly. They don't want to deal with public sale or liability after sale. A similar schoolie version with 168,000 just sold for 3,000. I was thinking a starting price around 7,000 or so? I just don't have any of the same bus or anything close to this mileage to go off of.
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Old 01-20-2021, 05:02 PM   #4
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This thing is really in nice shape. Inside I couldn't find a single rip in any of the seats, it smells nice. No evidence of critters running around. There is zero rot anywhere I can find. It has air conditioning. If it wasn't rear engine I'd sell my s1853 and keep this. Its a 190hp t444e Any interest at $700020210120_164535.jpg20210120_164504.jpg20210120_164038.jpg20210120_164204.jpg20210120_164147.jpg
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Old 01-21-2021, 02:00 PM   #5
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Just noticed the auto correct. It's a wolfington body. And I was wrong it's a 195hp @2300 rpm t444e.1611255622087.jpg
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Old 01-21-2021, 06:09 PM   #6
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I got the keys and checked it over today before starting it. It sat for about a year. It fired right up with no block heater. Everthing seems to work, air brakes went right up to pressure. No way to tell if AC is working in 40° ambient air but it blows. Rear heat blows. Lights all work. Air door works. I'm buying the bus this week. I said $7,000 and I'll honor that here if someone is serious, but it's going on multiple sites at $10,000 to see what happens. Found a similar but dt466 powered one with 16,000 miles for $25,000 so it's a steal. I just want to make a little to help my s1853 conversion along. Pm or preferably email me at.
BirchsGarageMB@gmail.com


Edit. The pic above with block heater plugged in was for about 3-4 min. I felt the bat charger was more important to help initial cranking. It was only in bat charger for maybe 2 hrs. After running for a few minutes it started on its own batteries 4-5 times with no more than a couple minutes between.
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Old 01-21-2021, 07:36 PM   #7
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Still no answer an the engine hours.
Are they high? 10,000ish?
Id expect parking tram (or museum tour ride) to idle for hours every day. All 1st/2nd gear.
Can you provide documentation of the history?
The maintenance on privately held vehicles are not required the same impecability as those carrying our precious cargo. Helps to add value if there is a paper trail of investment into the bus.
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Old 01-21-2021, 10:00 PM   #8
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Damn forgot about hour check. Any idea where it would be? I'll go d out about maintenance as much as possible. It definitely was not sitting there running all day though. It was only used for certain situations. Normally the 2 short busses would be running. From what I'm told the drivers didn't like to use it since the roads are pretty tight. I checked fluids and was shocked to see a diesel that wasn't completely black oil. It was actually translucent. I have never seen that in any diesel I own or work on. As far as maintenance, it's probably barely at it's 2nd service mileage so I really don't know. I'm sure it went somewhere for work. It runs super smooth and quiet.
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Old 01-22-2021, 07:56 PM   #9
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I can say that while it's a smallish museum, the owners are a VERY large Delaware corporation that every single one of you has heard of and very likely has thier products in your house. They are very liability conscience and I'm sure it was not neglected. I was on my way to go look for an hour meter today and my daily started rod knocking bad. I'm probably getting the bus Tuesday or so.
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Old 01-22-2021, 08:53 PM   #10
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It's the paper that makes all the difference. Every seller has a story. Bearing witness to a fact is what separates truth and from speciation.
Not you, but dealers usually, will tell a tale of history, while not having experienced it themselves. It's difficult to know anything without investigating or actually bearing witness. Thats why the documentation is so important.
Did you have it looked at, professionally, before buying it?
Most buyers have a mechanic change all the fluids, filters, belts, etc., just to document fluid levels or that the proper fluids are used. Some send the fluids to a lab. Dealers all do this to assess the actual value.

There are alot of folks (not you) out there trying to make a quick buck without doing any due diligence. Not even a bath.
I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a bus on a story, alone. If you already bought it, providing the contact info of the business may help the purchaser perform his own fact finding.
If your just trying to sell someone else's bus for them....
15% finders fee, the standard for centuries.
Or wholesale it, a price where the next guy can perform the proper due diligence and gamble on a resell flip.
Anything else is just empty promises from the middleman who hasn't witnessed what he says. Don't be that guy. Keeping a buyer and seller separated for high profit is close to extortion and you are a too good a person for that.
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Old 01-24-2021, 03:14 AM   #11
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Well I'm the contracted equipment mechanic on the other side of the show. All the lawn and grounds vehicles. Not the people movers though at this point. The people here have been here quite awhile, I've been here 3.5 years. They have given me accounts of it that I have no reason not to believe. I saw it come up for fuel a few times and that's all i really know. It got parked the last time when covid hit. Sat since March or so. I'm hoping I can get documentation. I think the director has changed but every cent spent is accounted for. I just hope the details can be found. I'll give it a very good once over when I get it to my shop.

As far as the mileage, I calculated 225 trips around the grounds per year over 19 years.
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Old 01-28-2021, 12:57 PM   #12
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The hours are 2350. So it's averaging 5.3 mph which shows it didn't sit idleing all day. Being on grounds it didn't go very fast very often but I'm told it was taken to a wash place off site every couple weeks so it did run through the gears occasionally. I'll be taking deliver Tuesday or Wednesday and the director is gathering paperwork. IMG_0579.jpg
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Old 01-28-2021, 01:14 PM   #13
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ten sounds like a fair price in today's market.
hell down here people are putting ragged out high miles school buses on layaway at twice that price.
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Old 01-29-2021, 01:31 AM   #14
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ten sounds like a fair price in today's market.
hell down here people are putting ragged out high miles school buses on layaway at twice that price.
Sold for 10,000 kidding but are you interested?
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Old 01-29-2021, 04:33 AM   #15
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One, two... three and to the four... Cheese Wagon and DeMac is at the door... Sorry, folks, listening to music while typing this...

I really was trying to stay out of this after having my knuckles rapped for telling the truth about another post. Probably going to get banned for this one, but quite frankly, with recent experiences on this site and my observations of the site's issues since my 2013 return, I could care less. Gimme the microphone first so I can bust like a bubble...

Reality is that the bus in this post, having averaged 5 mph, likely has moderate to severe wear on the low and second gear clutches in the transmission from mostly going back-and-forth between only those two gears for 12,000 miles. And 2,350 hrs doesn't seem like a lot, but 2,350 hours at 60 mph would be 141,000 miles by comparison. And truthfully, between two buses with those hours, one with 12,000 miles, one with 141,000 miles, I'd choose the 141,000 mile bus. Because highway miles are far easier miles than stop-and-go. A needle in a haystack when it comes to buses, but just making my point. Low miles and low hours aren't always an ideal situation.

Now, this bus may well go another 10-20 years without issue. And not to rain on OP's parade, but really, who knows? Has anyone priced a rebuild on an Allison automatic lately? Far too many people get caught up in low odometer readings, never once thinking about what low miles can truly mean. Ain't nuthin' but a bus thang, baay-beh.... Give advice, and you don't have to pay meh...

I have said before that a bus conversion will never be cheaper than an RV, but it will be BETTER in the long run if done correctly. But I don't care what anyone says, no one should be paying much over $5k for even the cream of the crop unless it's under 5 years old, under 50,000 miles AND under 5,000 hours. As in ALL THREE. You're NOT going to find that.

Otherwise, $10k is insane unless there is some kind of warranty. In 2006, I bought a 17-year-old 64-passenger Ford B700 Blue Bird for $900, and drove it over mountains to get it home. I found out later it had a Jasper replacement engine.

And no, I didn't happen on someone desperate to unload it, and I didn't get a smoking deal. I paid a fair price for a 17-year-old bus with unknown mileage and unknown mechanical condition. Because no matter how well it runs or drives, there are no guarantees when the next breakdown might occur. And quite frankly, if a seller is not willing to offer some kind of warranty, they have no business asking over $5k for even a unicorn bus.

But uh, back to the lecture at hand... Folks, just because some of you are willing to spend more money for less bus, doesn't mean the bus is worth it, it just means someone is insane enough to spend that on a starting block. And I am about to offend some people (probably a LOT of people), but these are the two primary reasons that pricing on buses has gotten out of hand already...

First, the hobby has filled up in recent years with uninformed trendy hipsters fresh off a successful dot-com startup that do no research, only asking questions on Facebook groups about where to start, AFTER spending STUPID amounts of "f*ck you" money for auction-fresh 10-year old MaxxFarce boat anchors that in some cases haven't even been properly cleaned or inspected, and more often than not come with little to no service / repair history.

Who, are in turn, enabling shady flippers who place spite bids to screw end users out of a bus, which ultimately puts the good ones out of reach of most and artificially inflates pricing. No offense to anyone here who flips for actual reasonable prices, but I've met at least two flippers who quite frankly should have their a**es kicked for asking prices I would never have considered paying, that likely yield as much as 200%-500% profit, with no certification of the mechanicals unless they charged the buyer extra for it.

Warranty? Perish the thought. And I have inspected / transported a few that had obviously been driven straight to the flipper's storage lot and not even cleaned properly before being listed for two to three times what they paid, without even so much as a proper cleaning, let alone verify sound mechanical condition through fluid analysis or even minor reconditioning.

Example? On one such unit, signal lights malfunctioning, air-conditioning not working, which usually is a simple matter of charging. I bought $100 worth of R134a at an O'Reilly's and charged the system myself because I was roasting. Within 20 minutes it was blowing twice as cold as the one that was still working at pickup. The 'dealer' (Dr. Evil 'tractor beam' gesture) couldn't be bothered to spend 20 minutes and $100 to do such a simple task in the interest of improving the quality of the vehicle. So it begs the question of what else they couldn't be bothered to fix properly, if at all.

Their answer to the signal lights malfunctioning was to partially disassemble the gauge cluster and remove bulbs that indicated a problem, when all that was likely needed was a replacement turn signal switch. And who knows what other warning lights were disabled in the same manner? It's pretty obvious it was doctored when you have warning light applique inserts falling out of the cluster because they weren't reinstalled properly.

The buyer had requested full fluid analyses at my recommendation. Seller passed the cost of this on to the buyer and then apparently refused to communicate the results of tests they had been charged for before completing the transaction. Indeed, the buyer only found out the transmission fluid had a high large particle count (indicating a subpar maintenance schedule and possibly moderate to severe wear) when I sent them pictures of the paperwork when the bus was picked up.

The same unit also had a massive air leak that made the asking price completely unjustified. Massive as in 20-30 psi in less than 10 minutes. You could hear it sitting in the driver's seat with the engine off. Seller's BS justification? “This is the southwest, rubber doesn't last here.” Folks, NO air brake system should lose air – plain and simple. It is not safe. END OF STORY.

I might add that said unit developed a massive oil leak at the compressor base within an hour of leaving the 'dealer', which the seller was anything but professional about dealing with. Nothing but excuses and b*tching about it, even after I had expressed interest in one or two buses on their 'lot' – which doubled as a salvage yard, as several were being stripped for parts. It just so happens that the compressor connections were part of the air leak as well, and its part number proved it had been salvaged from another vehicle. Maybe the seller's doing, maybe not.

Also, while the bus made the trip for final delivery, it showed signs of possible blow-by (more likely turbo issues) along the way. I wouldn't say the buyer got a bad bus, but they definitely overpaid for what they got and I personally wouldn't have bought it with those issues at HALF the price.

Things like this are why I stress pre-purchase inspection, fluid analyses and not paying these outrageous prices. And as long as people keep paying these prices and justifying it rather than questioning it when they are literally getting NOTHING for paying twice the auction price, it is only going to get worse. Those who pay such outrageous prices without question are simply enabling con artists to suck triple their money out of people, money that would be better spent on the build.

Quite frankly, for the prices the seller in my above example asks, I would hesitate to buy from them. And with the obvious half-a**ed method of dealing with rather simple fixes, or not even dealing with them at all, I wouldn't buy a used bicycle from them, ESPECIALLY for the prices they're asking. After the rather asinine demeanor I got when the buyer sent me back to repair a somewhat dire problem, there's no way I would buy from them at any price.

ECCB probably remembers well the saga of Greg Archambault and vanguy, a perfect example of flipping and unquestioned high prices gone wrong. It's quite simple, any seller listing a vehicle for 200%-300% profit should stand behind that vehicle without complaint when it develops a problem. And how many are going to do that? IF they do, they won't be happy about it. Buyers don't want excuses and griping in the process of fixing a problem that should have been ferreted out as part of an outrageous sale price in the first place. If it's that easy, then I've been in the wrong business.

Folks, most of these flippers need to step up their game if they expect their offerings to command a king's ransom. But it will continue 'business as usual', if you allow it to, by enabling them. So my suggestion is, rather than pay Johnny Jack*ss twice what you would have originally bid for a bus, be willing to go another $2000 at auction. Sure, you might pay another $2,000 just because... But the alternative is to pay three times that for absolutely nothing extra. The buyer in my case was charged for new batteries and fluid analyses on top of an exorbitant sale price, given the as-is sale. As-is sales do not command prices much over $5k, folks.

As for the bus in this post, I personally would put its value in the $4500-$5500 range, $6500 tops (with service / repair records) on an as-is / where-is sale. Call me a cheapskate, but consideration must be taken for the pitfall of a potential trans failure. No offense, OP, just being real with the low-speed, frequent-gear-change use, which counters even the best of maintenance schedules, in that it promotes excessive fluid and component heat -- engine, trans and brakes. And I would expect lots of wear on the brake chambers / linkages, turn signal and brake light switches.

It's like this, and like that, and like this, and uh...
It's like that, and like this, and like that, and uh...
It's like this, and like that, and like this, and uh...

D, creep to the mic like a phantom...
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Old 01-29-2021, 08:00 AM   #16
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Sold for 10,000 kidding but are you interested?
Nah, but thought it was worth mentioning. I've sold a few buses.

Stick it on FB Marketplace or better yet- Join the "Swarm" group. Its FULL of eager to buy folks. Lots of them noobs with lofty ideas and huge wallets.
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Old 01-29-2021, 08:03 AM   #17
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IDK folks- but a non-yellow RE that moves under its own power and aint rusty sure would be at least ten g's if it were listed down here.
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Old 01-29-2021, 11:47 AM   #18
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IDK folks- but a non-yellow RE that moves under its own power and aint rusty sure would be at least ten g's if it were listed down here.
No offense, but what do you say to someone who pays $10k for such a bus and gets stuck with a massive trans failure and a $3000-$5000+ transmission replacement within six months, or worse, on the way home (accompanied by a $1500-$2000 tow bill?) "Sorry, my bad"? For $10k, where's the warranty? You can't possibly justify a $10k asking price with no guarantees of safety or mechanical soundness.

Sorry, ECCB, but if you're okay with that situation, you're no better than the seller in my above example. I don't care what state it's in, what color it is, the transmission in this bus is and will always be a 2000-lb question mark until it is rebuilt. Remember vanguy, ECCB? Not sure what he paid for that bus, but the trans failed on the way home and the seller did nothing but make excuses, even fabricating values for the bus' purported value in parts. And I remember well that you were one of several (myself included) who called them out. What's different now? Statistics and evidence point to a potential for the same to happen here.


This is exactly what I am talking about. Enabling flippers who offer nothing by justifying high prices without question. Just because someone says something is worth X amount, doesn't necessarily make it so. I stand by my statements. Stop paying outrageous prices and keep that money in your pocket by bidding a little more on auction items, you won't be missing out on anything.

Even if the flippers outbid you and you don't get the bus, the flippers will have to step up their game by either fixing things, offering some type of warranty or adjusting their prices after an auction-fresh $2000 bus sits on their lot for 18 months listed at $8500. That is, if people start waking up and stop slurping up the typical line of utter bullsh*t excuses uttered by such flippers and paying these outrageous prices with no warranty or reconditioning.
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Old 01-29-2021, 12:08 PM   #19
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No offense, but what do you say to someone who pays $10k for such a bus and gets stuck with a massive trans failure and a $3000-$5000+ transmission replacement within six months, or worse, on the way home (accompanied by a $1500-$2000 tow bill? "Sorry, my bad"? For $10k, where's the warranty?

Sorry, ECCB, but if you're okay with that situation, you're no better than the seller in my above example. I don't care what state it's in, what color it is, the transmission in this bus is and will always be a question mark until rebuilt. Remember vanguy, ECCB? Not sure what he paid for that bus, but the trans failed on the way home and the seller did nothing but make excuses, even fabricating values for the bus' purported value in parts.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Enabling flippers who offer nothing by justifying high prices without question. Just because someone says something is worth X amount, doesn't necessarily make it so. I stand by my statements. Stop paying outrageous prices and keep that money in your pocket by bidding a little more on auction items, you won't be missing out on anything. Even if the flippers outbid you and you don't get the bus, the flippers will either have to step up their game by fixing things or adjusting their prices after an auction-fresh $2000 bus sits on their lot for 18 months listed at $8500. That is, if people start waking up and stop paying these outrageous prices with no warranty or reconditioning.
i'd say the same thing I'd say to someone who paid ten grand for a yellow one with 350k miles on it who just discovered buses cost $$ to fix and own.

I've poopoo'ed lots of buses on here for sale... but I don't think 7k is a bad price for this bus at all.
In this market that to me looks like a damn good deal.

People ARE paying outrageous prices, man... look at FB marketplace, look at "skoolie swarm" lol. Look at BGA- they're asking 20g's for this same bus in yellow with a ton of miles in tampa. And putting it on LAYAWAY.

If I didn't own a bus and were bus shopping right now this one would have my attention. I'd want to see the underside thoroughly since its in NE.
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Old 01-29-2021, 12:25 PM   #20
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i'd say the same thing I'd say to someone who paid ten grand for a yellow one with 350k miles on it who just discovered buses cost $$ to fix and own. People ARE paying outrageous prices, man... look at FB marketplace, look at "skoolie swarm" lol. Look at BGA- they're asking 20g's for this same bus in yellow with a ton of miles in tampa. And putting it on LAYAWAY.

If I didn't own a bus and were bus shopping right now this one would have my attention. I'd want to see the underside thoroughly since its in NE.
THIS. THIS is exactly what I'm talking about. Seriously, if buses cost money to repair and own, then why the hell would anyone want to pay $10k upfront? Or, layaway at $20k. It's stupid. And it will ruin the skoolie hobby and eventually the community. Mark my words. I just finished editing my last post, ECCB, might want to re-read it.

And BTW, I wouldn't swear to it, but you might want to look into who actually owns / runs BGA -- I wouldn't be surprised if it was Greg Archambault, formerly of Florida Church Bus infamy... Remember the way he screwed vanguy back in the day. They are still active in the community. Would certainly explain the inflated prices.
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