ISO vintage Crown school bus

[Iceni John]

Mike, there were a few mid-engine Super IIs with pancake Detroits - Crescent City sold two mossy ones (with yellow roofs) a few years ago, and there were even some 10-speed mid-engine Super IIs. I have a publicity brochure for the Super IIs that shows the mid-engine ones, and a Crown publicity photo of a gleaming new Super II that has no rear engine grilles! So yes, they did exist, but they were as rare as hen's teeth. Strangely, my Crown Driver's Handbook lists the GVWRs etc for the Cummins CT and CTA options, but there's no mention of the Cat 3208 option in it! Alliance had a 3208 Super II from Lincoln USD, and there were a few others here and there, but they were reputedly real slugs to drive. I think that Crown would pretty much build whatever you wanted, or would fit whatever they had lying around! No two buses are exactly alike: I have the factory build sheet for Placer 35, the sister bus to mine, and it's exactly the same specs as mine, but when 35 was on Craigslist a few years ago it was visibly different than mine in some details. Fun!

John

[Crown_Guy]

I'm Shocked, Shocked! I tell you to hear Crown made Super II's with mid engines. And That's why you're the Man for all things Crown II. It just goes to show they built anything the Customer wanted even if it was nonsensical. I Guess they really really wanted that new Modern looking Crown and driver dash setup. We both know about the rear engined (8.3 Cummins) Super Coaches from mostly San Diego, so I guess this turnabout is only fair play. Why not put the engine midship in a II, the middle isn't all that different between them anyway. Crown is always keeping us guessing. It's why we like them so much, among all the other many reasons of course.

[Royandlevi]

We have a 1954 Crown in California for sale, just listed on Skoolies For Sale in Facebook groups. Preparing to list here and other sites too. Just an FYI 😊

[dzl_]

Piggybacking on this thread with a question, hope that is okay, @Crown_Guy or anyone else with the knowledge, do you know if there is a standard (or common) window size for Crown Buses? Or any other decent ways to estimate length?

[Crown_Guy]

Originally Posted by dzl_

Piggybacking on this thread with a question, hope that is okay, @Crown_Guy or anyone else with the knowledge, do you know if there is a standard (or common) window size for Crown Buses? Or any other decent ways to estimate length?

At one time when the Crowns were all very similar and 35ft long, back around pre-1969 time frame the windows were apparently all the same size (width). I say apparently because with time I've learned that there were, even then, some subtle differences and that sometimes you couldn't swap window frames and positions without having some fitting troubles. It LOOKED like you could do this but Crown managed to have the hand-built and fit JuJu crop up and you'd find a little bit of the builders tweaking to fit forcing you to use the same frame in the same location. This was entirely acceptable since you were usually only replacing the glass in that position and no need to move the frame around somewhere else on the bus. We're the only ones who move them around and the differences in widths show up real fast and we have to deal with it. They can appear real close and similar in size, close, but no tomato.

As they made longer buses and more complicated window arrangements, which are easily seen if you look at the windows, it became more obvious that the windows were expected to be slightly or grossly different widths. I bought some spares from a scrapyard for my bus and found out the hard way they were very different by some inches in width, but the good news is that they can be cut and modified to match whatever you need, of course as long as the original has some extra width to be reduced. They are assembled frames with fasteners and can be fairly easily modified/cut shortened and put back together by a determined craftsman, that's what we are right?

This ability to cut and/or modify to your specifications is one of the true strengths of the Crowns and underlies their design and construction philosophy. They did it all the time when originally built and you can do the same with some thought and planning and if, executed properly, it can turn out as well as the original when Crown built it new.

So the real answer to your question is "Probably not any standard size". They can be real close but there may still be slight tweak to fit things in play that will give you trouble. So keep a sharp eye out and don't make assumptions and Measure everything yourself to be sure and proceed cautiously.

If you're asking me for what the usual width of the windows is, all I can say is, I don't really know off the top of my head, I'd have to go measure some to see. You too will have to measure to see what you need, if of course you have access to a Crown to do this with. It's all easily reached and can be done, while the depth of the frames in the pocket below the rubber seal may be more difficult and require removal of the frame to measure it. That's more involved no doubt. The frames come out entirely for glass replacement.

Maybe someone who's closer to his Crown than I am (1 hour away) can jump in here and measure his widows and offer up a few widths for you. Most are very close in size on each bus with a very select few different depending on the body lengths and window arrangements to make them all fit properly. I suppose you can call this all part of the Charm of such a hand built and custom fit bus.

I hope this helps.

[Alsbus]

I can vouch for the mileage on my 1974 Crown I'm currently traveling in. I've just diven up highway 1 in CA. Up to Fort Bragg. Then down to Bodega Bay and across to Sausalito. On the coast road I was getting around 8mpg. But most of my trips have seen an average of 10 mpg. My old Ford Bronco used to get 10 mpg! Ha.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Not sure what your budget is, but here's one currently on eBay as of 9/26....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-CROWN-...dfX7Ds&vxp=mtr

[flattracker]

I thought that I would add a little more to the discussion. My 1981 Crown 35 footer with Detroit 671 and Alison automatic would reliably get 10 mpg all day. My only issue was lack of power on hills.
By the way that 74 model post looks great. I have been on Hwy 1 a few times with the 81 Crown but only down south. Did you have any problems with the real tight turns going north? Thanks

[Alsbus]

Originally Posted by flattracker

I thought that I would add a little more to the discussion. My 1981 Crown 35 footer with Detroit 671 and Alison automatic would reliably get 10 mpg all day. My only issue was lack of power on hills.
By the way that 74 model post looks great. I have been on Hwy 1 a few times with the 81 Crown but only down south. Did you have any problems with the real tight turns going north? Thanks

Yes, there was 1 hairpin bend to the right which had me on the wrong side of the road! Luckily nothing coming the other way. Yikes! Oh, and my bus has the 671 and 5 speed manual. 35' long. Runs and drives great! Thanks for the compliment.

[flattracker]

Originally Posted by Alsbus

I can vouch for the mileage on my 1974 Crown I'm currently traveling in. I've just diven up highway 1 in CA. Up to Fort Bragg. Then down to Bodega Bay and across to Sausalito. On the coast road I was getting around 8mpg. But most of my trips have seen an average of 10 mpg. My old Ford Bronco used to get 10 mpg! Ha.

I would take the same route as you, going east at Bodega Bay, as the turns south of Stinson Beach are the absolute worst for any long vehicle. I have been on nearly all of HWY 1 on a motorcycle and don't think I could enjoy taking the Crown up that road. Once Hwy 1 goes inland north of Ft Bragg, it is tight and narrow. Hwy 101 is better for the drive but much less scenic. I noticed your door swings outward. It looks like you removed the "rubber lip" on the edge of your door. Could you post some images of what you did with the door. I am considering changing my door to open out. Thanks.

[JackE]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

Not sure what your budget is, but here's one currently on eBay as of 9/26....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-CROWN-...dfX7Ds&vxp=mtr

That is a really cool looking bus! That guy is one wordy salesman. He has me convinced to buy his bus. He just needs to convince my wife now!

[Alsbus]

Originally Posted by flattracker

I would take the same route as you, going east at Bodega Bay, as the turns south of Stinson Beach are the absolute worst for any long vehicle. I have been on nearly all of HWY 1 on a motorcycle and don't think I could enjoy taking the Crown up that road. Once Hwy 1 goes inland north of Ft Bragg, it is tight and narrow. Hwy 101 is better for the drive but much less scenic. I noticed your door swings outward. It looks like you removed the "rubber lip" on the edge of your door. Could you post some images of what you did with the door. I am considering changing my door to open out. Thanks.

Hope these pics help you. I actually bought the bus as is.

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by dzl_

Piggybacking on this thread with a question, hope that is okay, @Crown_Guy or anyone else with the knowledge, do you know if there is a standard (or common) window size for Crown Buses? Or any other decent ways to estimate length?

Further to what Crown_Guy said, my bus's windows, and I'm guessing all Crowns' windows, are shimmed when they're installed in the factory. Between the notched side rails that hold the window up and the actual structural top-hat-section window pillars between each window there are some very thin aluminum shims that compensate for any minor differences of spacing between the window pillars. Some windows have one shim per side, some have two, some have three, and there may even be some windows with none! Whatever the case, you MUST reinstall windows with their correct number of shims, otherwise they won't slide right or will be slightly crooked.

And just to confuse matters, most of my bus's side windows do not line up left-to-right! It has two very different sizes of windows, and after the first four from the back which are all large, the next ones forward are different between the left and right sides. I suppose it could be a problem for some conversions, but fortunately my three interior divider walls on each side don't need them all to line up.

Yes, Crowns can be a royal PIA when it comes to building their interiors, but that's just part of the fun of having the best damn bus on the road.

John

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by JackE

That is a really cool looking bus! That guy is one wordy salesman. He has me convinced to buy his bus. He just needs to convince my wife now!

That's Bainbridge Island number 00 from Washington state. It was driven down from WA to Southern CA and was guest of honor at this year's Crown get-together in the high desert, and I rode in it for a few miles on that day. It's in great condition inside and out, and with a 14-liter Cummins of at least 360 HP (maybe closer to 400?) and well over 1000 lb/ft of grunt, and a Road Ranger 10-speed, it flies! This bus, and another similarly-powered Crown tandem that I've also had the pleasure of riding in, will not just keep up with cars climbing Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but will pass some of them on the long 6% grades uphill. Crown tandems with turned-up big Cummins and 10-speeds are monsters! Yes, Al's asking a lot for it, but I think it's well worth it as a collectible and an excellent example of the finest buses ever made, anywhere, by anyone. It's still cheaper than some crappy little mass-produced boring snotbox econocar - I know what I'd prefer!

John

[JackE]

Originally Posted by Iceni John

That's Bainbridge Island number 00 from Washington state.....- I know what I'd prefer!

John

That's good to hear from another Crown guy! If I were a single guy and had nobody to answer to, I would be all over this bus. I retire in 250 days. If I bought it now, I'd have to work another 5 years to make things work according to plans. Even that Crown isn't worth that to me. But, a guy can dream.....

[flattracker]

Originally Posted by Alsbus

Hope these pics help you. I actually bought the bus as is.

Thanks for the pictures. I spoke with the wife about it but she still thinks the door should open inward. Maybe she will think different when I remind her of how cold the breeze was in the Winter in the "old Crown". I see that you have a gasket that seals your door. Is the door airtight going down the road? I noticed you have a covering under your ceiling. Is that glued to the ceiling, and does it make things quieter and warmer or cooler as needed?

[Crown_Guy]

[QUOTE=Iceni John;407903]That's Bainbridge Island number 00 from Washington state. It was driven down from WA to Southern CA and was guest of honor at this year's Crown get-together in the high desert, and I rode in it for a few miles on that day. It's in great condition inside and out, and with a 14-liter Cummins of at least 360 HP (maybe closer to 400?) and well over 1000 lb/ft of grunt, and a Road Ranger 10-speed, it flies! This bus, and another similarly-powered Crown tandem that I've also had the pleasure of riding in, will not just keep up with cars climbing Cajon Pass and the Grapevine, but will pass some of them on the long 6% grades uphill. Crown tandems with turned-up big Cummins and 10-speeds are monsters! Yes, Al's asking a lot for it, but I think it's well worth it as a collectible and an excellent example of the finest buses ever made, anywhere, by anyone. It's still cheaper than some crappy little mass-produced boring snotbox econocar - I know what I'd prefer!

John[/QUOTE

I'm actually quite amazed at how much people complain at the costs for any decent school bus, of any make. Non Crowns for $1.5 to $4.5K usually, to Crowns from $6k (if you're lucky) to now usually over $10K for a runner and still needing work, and you're STILL way ahead of any car pricing. I just don't see the outrage in these prices that so many seem to feel and vent. You have to look at all the value and the many miles left on these vehicle to get the whole picture of the great deal you're getting.

When compared to ANY car costs today at $20k+ for a cheap econo-box to a proper $50k+ mid-size suv or pick'em truck I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you at how much all that iron costs. When you add all the CRAP that they carry to destroy mileage, engine life, power, with the computers to guarantee that no one without a computer degree plus thousands of dollars of test equipment and begin to work on it, and you wonder why I prefer to spend my hard earned money on a Crown, just about ANY Crown.

I'd be perfectly happy to tootle around town with my 35ft Detroit Crown in place of my car most of the time, which I do some now, as I get the chance, since the car when it breaks costs almost as much as the Crown to fix, and my Jeep is a 2003! The Crown doesn't break and if it does I, that's ME, can usually fix it and not some vulture shop sitting there sharpening his knife waiting for victims to come in the front door with a wheelbarrow full of cash. I'm not biased or anything.....but I much prefer a pure mechanical, non-dpf cow-piss polluted, SAE tooled, wrench and fix, type vehicle every single time, even my cars, I look for that as much as possible, been there done that, got the book. I have no interest in any of the new cars, I'd be locking the chains on my own wrists and selling my soul, with any of them. Electric or hybrid?? Perish the thought and back yea to the underworld.

At any price and, pretty much in any condition, a Crown is worth more in long term value versus costs to a whole car hauler full of new or mostly new normal cars. It will run them all into the ground and be running long after they are converted back into razor blades, and by any metric you can figure will exceed any expectations you can name. That's a pretty good track record and one very few vehicles can match.

So, yes, the asking price seems high by today's comparables, but in about five years I suspect that will be the normal going price for any crapped out Crown as a base to go much higher from there. They will become one of the futures most rare and collectible vintage historical vehicles. And most will still be in running and serviceable condition. Pretty cool actually. And with luck I'll be around still to enjoy driving them and I will most definitely have that wide sh*teating grin on my face, that my friends know so well. I just love me my Crowns, and yes I am not just biased, but evangelistic about them and want to see all that can be saved and restored in private hands and kept on the road as they were meant to be, and driven as much as possible.

[Spanner1962]

Howdy folks, I know after reading all the posts on this thread that There are some very enthusiastic and knowledgeable posters!!!
I am looking for a crown bus from the 80’s either Cummins or Detroit, with a ten speed, if anyone knows of anything you can email me at dbtew2001@hotmail.com thanks in advance.

[UFO pilot]

Calling Iceni John

After spending some time digging around the interwebs for my mythical mid-engine Supercoach II and it looks like I found pics.....after I knew what to look for!

Also I think we chased the OP away. MeganB if you are still around, sorry!

Anyway pics on this site, but not much for technical specs. This site is probably already bookmarked by the Crown faithful among us!
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thre...paratus.44281/

[Iceni John]

Originally Posted by UFO pilot

Calling Iceni John

After spending some time digging around the interwebs for my mythical mid-engine Supercoach II and it looks like I found pics.....after I knew what to look for!

Also I think we chased the OP away. MeganB if you are still around, sorry!

Anyway pics on this site, but not much for technical specs. This site is probably already bookmarked by the Crown faithful among us!
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/thre...paratus.44281/

I'm curious - why do you want a mid-engine Super II? Will you be doing a conversion to it, or keeping it seated and in original condition? Where is this middie from? Is it an auto, or one of the rarer-than-hen's-teeth 10-speed mid-engine Super IIs? Some years ago Crescent City sold their 38-foot mid-engine 10-speed Super II, and that's the only one I've ever seen sold.

John