Electric Bus FL to CA on Public Chargers

[Mercuric Mind]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

And public charging needs to cost less than gas.. and right now in many places it doesn’t .. with a Tesla you may have partial or free charging depending on when it was bought or the current promotions but with other EV the public chargers prices rival gas at $3.75 a gallon for the average car.. people won’t adopt that..

Yep it all comes down to economics!

It is funny but all the negative sentiments said about electric vehicles, you could almost swap in place of the old debate of horse to ICE powered coaches of yesteryear. For now electric / battery powered vehicles are in their technological infancy and their actual real life usability efficiency is low right now but will soon be the norm, just like with the horse in the past soon ICE will be a non decision and relegated to hobby and sport.

Technology marches on and we have to adapt to it or not.

[Mercuric Mind]

Originally Posted by Veloc

Mind you, I'm no greenie. I'm fully behind the idea of running all this with breeder nuclear reactors sprinkled about the place.

Fusion baby... FUSION. Coming soon to a planet near you!

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Veloc

Mind you, I'm no greenie. I'm fully behind the idea of running all this with breeder nuclear reactors sprinkled about the place

Nuclear is Green these days dontcha know?

Or at least the capitalist PRostitutes would have you believe

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Mercuric Mind

Yep it all comes down to economics!

It is funny but all the negative sentiments said about electric vehicles, you could almost swap in place of the old debate of horse to ICE powered coaches of yesteryear. For now electric / battery powered vehicles are in their technological infancy and their actual real life usability efficiency is low right now but will soon be the norm, just like with the horse in the past soon ICE will be a non decision and relegated to hobby and sport.

Technology marches on and we have to adapt to it or not.

thats exactly it.. but the difference between horses and ICE cars is we have governments trying to force the technology whereas with horses and ice cars we let tech drive it.. once cars began being mass produced and the tech caught up then people adopted.. governments didsnt say "we are going to take your horses away" before cars caught up..



I have no issues driving an EV.. I had a PHEV in 2013 and a rewgular hybrid now.. as tewch gets better ill have a full EV.. driveability wise they are ahead of ICE cars in mty opinion.. the torque at 0 RPM is a really nice feeling when you go out into traffic...



evetually wireless charging may get good enough where you charge your car from the road itself.. who knows. but we need to let the tech and innovation drive this.. governments should be there to support innovation but not to suppress the tried and true.. instead innovate the new to the point no one wants to use the old.. ie horse and buggy.. and yes some still use horse and buggy


-Christopher

[mmoore6856]

All this ev sh1t will only benefit the southern folk. Those that want/need to be up in cold climate will suffer thru this technology and be the guinea pigs for the developers. They don't care if you have issues. Even fire departments do not have the equipment or technology to combat ev fires.( just recently the boat full of cars that sank proved how we are not prepared)
If you consider a ev weigh your pros and cons so you can sleep at nite. Like the exhaust Def and filters they will rush it out then work out the bugs. Ev has a place but not here yet. However if the designers would get thier head out of thier azz and make a car or small truck that could charge while flat towing....... naw they ain't that smart so it's up to us

[mmoore6856]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

thats exactly it.. but the difference between horses and ICE cars is we have governments trying to force the technology whereas with horses and ice cars we let tech drive it.. once cars began being mass produced and the tech caught up then people adopted.. governments didsnt say "we are going to take your horses away" before cars caught up..



I have no issues driving an EV.. I had a PHEV in 2013 and a rewgular hybrid now.. as tewch gets better ill have a full EV.. driveability wise they are ahead of ICE cars in mty opinion.. the torque at 0 RPM is a really nice feeling when you go out into traffic...



evetually wireless charging may get good enough where you charge your car from the road itself.. who knows. but we need to let the tech and innovation drive this.. governments should be there to support innovation but not to suppress the tried and true.. instead innovate the new to the point no one wants to use the old.. ie horse and buggy.. and yes some still use horse and buggy


-Christopher

You are right government is the problem

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by Mercuric Mind

Yep it all comes down to economics!

It is funny but all the negative sentiments said about electric vehicles, you could almost swap in place of the old debate of horse to ICE powered coaches of yesteryear. For now electric / battery powered vehicles are in their technological infancy and their actual real life usability efficiency is low right now but will soon be the norm, just like with the horse in the past soon ICE will be a non decision and relegated to hobby and sport.

Technology marches on and we have to adapt to it or not.

That's how I see it. A similar transition happened over a century ago. When there were very few roads or refueling stations, while horses of the time could traverse any terrain, eat grass. Horses typically
came stock with no-crash auto pilot, self homing, and summons features, as well. Just whistle. I can only imagine what the cowboys predicted of autocars.

Some folks seem to prefer the warm air and soft music that emits from a FE diesel and the aromatherapy is special, too. I get that. I'm into sneeking up on the wildlife. Keeping smell & sound to a minimum. Horseback hunting is done quietly. Carries alot of meat.

We will still have variety. That's why there are both Jet Boats & Sail Boats. I could dig a silent bus, cruising with only the sound of wind and leaves in my wake.

[joeblack5]

The average driver goes 14000 miles per year over 300 days that is less then 50 miles per day.
That means that the average driver can just charge there car at home for really cheap or free if they have solar.

The needed charger infra structure is really not needed for this all to work for a lot of people.

If you need the occasional 500 mile trip then just rent a car for that day.

It is funny to me that the greenies and government is accused. One would think that the conservatives would love electric. Your own solar, your own fuel, your own independence. No government influence. Never gas increases but NO.

I want my everything now, just like children. 500 HP, free gas, I want, I want, I want....
Putin would not like it, if Germany is all green then he can't cut the fuel off. Here it is the same , the electric power companies in Florida try to limit home solar, why do think that is.

The only freedom you deserve from the government is if you can provide your own energy.. only two ways to do that. On your own property ...solar or on your own land grow rape seed / equivalent and press oil from it.

All the naysayers are somewhat involved on keeping the people on a chain..

The USA imports 1 percent oil.. why would the price of our energy be linked to the world oil barrel price?? No need to increase the fuel price here... The oil companies make the profit from $40 to $140 a barrel.. not the government. Quick money to be made , they are shooting themselves in the foot. The ev people are laugingh every step of the way..

Most people do not want to be independent.. they want to be a slave to the system. Just a herd thing.

Johan

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

The average driver goes 14000 miles per year over 300 days that is less then 50 miles per day.
That means that the average driver can just charge there car at home for really cheap or free if they have solar.

The needed charger infra structure is really not needed for this all to work for a lot of people.

If you need the occasional 500 mile trip then just rent a car for that day.

It is funny to me that the greenies and government is accused. One would think that the conservatives would love electric. Your own solar, your own fuel, your own independence. No government influence. Never gas increases but NO.

I want my everything now, just like children. 500 HP, free gas, I want, I want, I want....
Putin would not like it, if Germany is all green then he can't cut the fuel off. Here it is the same , the electric power companies in Florida try to limit home solar, why do think that is.

The only freedom you deserve from the government is if you can provide your own energy.. only two ways to do that. On your own property ...solar or on your own land grow rape seed / equivalent and press oil from it.

All the naysayers are somewhat involved on keeping the people on a chain..

The USA imports 1 percent oil.. why would the price of our energy be linked to the world oil barrel price?? No need to increase the fuel price here... The oil companies make the profit from $40 to $140 a barrel.. not the government. Quick money to be made , they are shooting themselves in the foot. The ev people are laugingh every step of the way..

Most people do not want to be independent.. they want to be a slave to the system. Just a herd thing.

Johan

Thank you, Johan. In the beginning, you mentioned my personal energy economics philosophy. We eat energy in order to emit energy to our customers/employers who credit us with money which we exchange for electric energy & gas energy to house and transport us to work and grocery (energy) store. We even buy energy emitting toys & entertainment.

We ought to be farming the free energy solely to be free from salvery.

Fruit, veggies, meat, eggs, solar, wind, anything that grows using free energy, without much of mine. Trees, plants, animals, wine, etc. capture nature's energy & grow larger, thereby increasing in value before sale. (Land = Freedom) I budget mine by emitting less than I create or I have to catch up by leaving my soil to burn time & labor for another. Paper money is energy storage, calculate each exchange rate.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

The average driver goes 14000 miles per year over 300 days that is less then 50 miles per day.
That means that the average driver can just charge there car at home for really cheap or free if they have solar.

The needed charger infra structure is really not needed for this all to work for a lot of people.

If you need the occasional 500 mile trip then just rent a car for that day.

It is funny to me that the greenies and government is accused. One would think that the conservatives would love electric. Your own solar, your own fuel, your own independence. No government influence. Never gas increases but NO.

I want my everything now, just like children. 500 HP, free gas, I want, I want, I want....
Putin would not like it, if Germany is all green then he can't cut the fuel off. Here it is the same , the electric power companies in Florida try to limit home solar, why do think that is.

The only freedom you deserve from the government is if you can provide your own energy.. only two ways to do that. On your own property ...solar or on your own land grow rape seed / equivalent and press oil from it.

All the naysayers are somewhat involved on keeping the people on a chain..

The USA imports 1 percent oil.. why would the price of our energy be linked to the world oil barrel price?? No need to increase the fuel price here... The oil companies make the profit from $40 to $140 a barrel.. not the government. Quick money to be made , they are shooting themselves in the foot. The ev people are laugingh every step of the way..

Most people do not want to be independent.. they want to be a slave to the system. Just a herd thing.

Johan

where it works yes.. but remember i live in one of the cloudiest dreariest parts of the country.. if i lived someplace where the sun were out then you bet thered be solar panels on top of my house.. I talk to the neighbors with solar systems who were promised all these nice KwH and they arent getting it..



Like I mentioned before its about freedom and convenience.. if EV were being pushed in a non political manner and such that it first targets those you mention who drive 50 miles per day or less then it would garner much wider adoptions.. biut instead the politics are making villains out of gas and diesel vehicles.. . wrong-wrong-wrong.. thats the way to build reisstance not get people to adopt it..



show me how the new tech is better but dont villify the old..



from a practicality point of view I want / need the choice to take road trips.. if I take a 150 mile road trip outbound in a car that has a 200 mile range and suddenly all the public chargers near my destination are either full or non existent now i have an issue... if its cold weather I have to bundle up hat N gloves and drive gingerly till i can find a public charger open... shivering all the way until i can charge my car.. minor inconvenience? to you yes.. to me its a non-starter.. ..



maybe eventually the tech comes along where we have a "jump box" we can take in our hotel room at night and charge up that gicves us an extra 10 or 20 miles in our EV.. as tech moves on we will have more and more public chargers.. and my guess is more and more of them will be solar / wind powered..



but DONT FORCE ME.. and dont VILLIFY me for driving gas cars until such tech catches up..



Joihan is right in that for city / suburb dwellers that never go anywhere EV tech is ready here and now.. and there are quite a few of those.. however msny of them live in apartments.. and right now that creates issues... unless an apartment was built in the last 5 years it probably has no EV chargers.. so the very people who could benefit greatly are "cut-out" as the only charging are thiose more-expensive-than-gas city public chargers..



if governments want to get involved then let them build infrastructure and not lobby against oil and gas staples.. they cry that oil / gas needs to be more expensive for people to adapt.. I say develop the EV tech to be better and in and of itself obsolete oil / gas....



same with home heating.. dont take my gas furnace away until you can replace it with something as comfortable / efficient and economical as it... dont tell me to wear a sweater and drop the thermostat 5 degrees to make the economics work... build me a heat pump system that works as good and you bet ill install it.. (my current home heating system is a hybrid of heat pump and gas).

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by Veloc

I would do it. When I sell it all and start living in a bus full time, that will be the end of my being in a hurry to get anywhere. I also like the idea of the entire drive section taking the place of the rear axle. It would free up a lot of room by not needing an engine and the ancilliary systems needed to keep it going. Just need a row of batteries under the floor centered between the frame, or do what some of the European companies are doing and line the roof with them. It's still too early for me to look at as a conversion project, but as they go full bore with it they should come out with faster and better charging systems and better batteries.

Mind you, I'm no greenie. I'm fully behind the idea of running all this with breeder nuclear reactors sprinkled about the place. Wind and solar have their uses, but that use is not as base load for society. I also have no problem with burning fossil fuels in the meantime. I have a project truck I'm working on that is being built as an easy conversion to an EV down the road, but I'm more after the sub-2 second 0-60 times than anything else.

I'll be interested in electric vehicles when I can drive one the same way I drive an internal combustion engined vehicle. We're a long way from that and it won't happen until there is a revolutionary advance in energy storage.

I assume that 260 miles is cruising on interstates at a steady speed. I suspect the mileage would be significantly less if it was being used on an urban bus route during 90 degree weather when you stop every few blocks.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

I'll be interested in electric vehicles when I can drive one the same way I drive an internal combustion engined vehicle. We're a long way from that and it won't happen until there is a revolutionary advance in energy storage.

I assume that 260 miles is cruising on interstates at a steady speed. I suspect the mileage would be significantly less if it was being used on an urban bus route during 90 degree weather when you stop every few blocks.

Cold weather is worse than hot weather typically. In a typical electric car , the nicer ones use a heat pump which does well to heat the car down into the teens / low 20s outside.. colder and they employ a 6000 watt electric heater that heats the “coolant” and warms the inside.

Some of the electric school busses actually use propane for interior heat (hidden in fine print). Others use the A/C as heat pump and gather some heat from the drivetrain and then have electric heaters..

When I had my Chevy volt I lost far more range in winter than I did in summer. The A/C made a small dent but not near as much as the heat.

My hybrid Elantra which isn’t a plug in loses MPG in cold weather .. the gas engine runs even when it’s not needed .. ie at a light or slow drive . Simply to keep the inside warm. Short trips are the. Toughest on range in cold weather EV as the heater is on high to warm you up. Then you park. All that cabin heat is lost. Then you go back home and the heater is on high… on longer trips the cabin warms up and the heater slows down and uses less Kw.. so as a % of range you lose less..

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Cold weather is worse than hot weather typically. In a typical electric car , the nicer ones use a heat pump which does well to heat the car down into the teens / low 20s outside.. colder and they employ a 6000 watt electric heater that heats the “coolant” and warms the inside.

Some of the electric school busses actually use propane for interior heat (hidden in fine print). Others use the A/C as heat pump and gather some heat from the drivetrain and then have electric heaters..

When I had my Chevy volt I lost far more range in winter than I did in summer. The A/C made a small dent but not near as much as the heat.

My hybrid Elantra which isn’t a plug in loses MPG in cold weather .. the gas engine runs even when it’s not needed .. ie at a light or slow drive . Simply to keep the inside warm. Short trips are the. Toughest on range in cold weather EV as the heater is on high to warm you up. Then you park. All that cabin heat is lost. Then you go back home and the heater is on high… on longer trips the cabin warms up and the heater slows down and uses less Kw.. so as a % of range you lose less..

I wonder if that holds true for an EV with the interior volume of that bus? Add to that the constant opening and closing of the doors. I also suspect you'd have to cool more in the summer than heat in the winter due to people wearing more clothing in winter. People dress for the outside temperature, you can only take off so much clothing to stay cool.

[cadillackid]

maybe on mild days or express routes but in a city bus with front and rear doors opening all the time, the drivers turn the heaters on high and leave them..



in a coach on a long trip people dont like to wear their coats the whole time so the heat is usually on quite a bit.. but at least in a coach on a trip you have the doors closed long periods.. and im sure theres ways ion those modern coaches to recover drive-train heat and use it for cabin heat.. the EV cars and school busses dont seem to be that advanced.. but im sure they will get to be at some point.. electric motors and batteries do still make some heat... there are HUGE heat sinks and coolant lines on the good EV cars that go to the batteries and the motor controllers.. on my chevy volt that heat was discarded.. as it was also on the LEAF.. but im not sure if the likes of more expensive EVs like a Tesla make use of that heat to feed the heat pump or not.



very little heat is lost in the brakes if you drive an EV right ( you arent a wait till the last second slam on the brakes driver.. aka not an ohio driver..). even in my hybrid car i can get home and have cold or barely warm brake discs..

[HamSkoolie]

Well that was a good bunch of laughs reading all those supposed positives about EV's.


WHERE DOES THE MASSIVE INCREASE IN ELECTRICAL DEMAND COME FROM?


With rolling brown and blackouts already an issue in several parts of the country AND with the alleged "climate change" issues AND the closing of baseline power plants because they burn fossil fuels (OH MY) AND NIMBY's refusing clean nuclear plants AND the inability of dirty solar and wind power to replace the lost baseline plants......
The math shows that we will soon be living in the "dark ages" of expanded blackouts and insufficient electrical power for the needs of society.


ALL because of government mandates driven by unicorn dreams.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by HamSkoolie

Well that was a good bunch of laughs reading all those supposed positives about EV's.


WHERE DOES THE MASSIVE INCREASE IN ELECTRICAL DEMAND COME FROM?


With rolling brown and blackouts already an issue in several parts of the country AND with the alleged "climate change" issues AND the closing of baseline power plants because they burn fossil fuels (OH MY) AND NIMBY's refusing clean nuclear plants AND the inability of dirty solar and wind power to replace the lost baseline plants......
The math shows that we will soon be living in the "dark ages" of expanded blackouts and insufficient electrical power for the needs of society.


ALL because of government mandates driven by unicorn dreams.

Pretty much... Government trying to overrun the tech.... its never worked with anything in the past.. innovation drives tech.. not Mandates

[HamSkoolie]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Nuclear is Green these days dontcha know?

Or at least the capitalist PRostitutes would have you believe

I've stood on ground zero in Hiroshima. I did so just 35 years after the bomb was detonated and it was a well established metropolis. That's the site of an actual nuclear weapon detonated to cause mass destruction, and yet it was a well established and thriving metropolis long before I visited.

The WORST nuclear "disaster" in the U.S. is still the Three Mile Island incident. And yet the exposure of nearby residents was 43% of that received by a single chest X-ray and less than 1/2 of 1% of what the average U.S. resident receives in a year from NATURAL background radiation.
That's THE WORST U.S. nuclear disaster we've ever experienced.
No deaths, no injuries, no long term effects.
Can we say that about wind or solar?

In FACT, nuclear is safer than any other energy source available with just 0.04 deaths per TWh produced.
Rooftop solar power is ELEVEN TIMES more dangerous with 0.44 deaths/TWH
Wind is 4 times more deadly than nuclear at 0.15/TWh produced
And Natural Gas comes in at 100 times more deadly than nuclear with 4.0 deaths/TWh.

When we take the time to look up the FACTS we often find our pre conceived notions to be, to put it nicely....... WRONG

SOURCE:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2008/0...y-sources.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_...sland_accident

[Oldyeller]

Originally Posted by Mercuric Mind

Yep it all comes down to economics!

It is funny but all the negative sentiments said about electric vehicles, you could almost swap in place of the old debate of horse to ICE powered coaches of yesteryear. For now electric / battery powered vehicles are in their technological infancy and their actual real life usability efficiency is low right now but will soon be the norm, just like with the horse in the past soon ICE will be a non decision and relegated to hobby and sport.

Technology marches on and we have to adapt to it or not.

At the turn of the last century internal combustion, electric and steam were all on the scene at once. Internal combustion won because it was more convenient and flexible just like it is now. Electric lost out for the same reason that limits it now, range, battery technology isn't ready. As soon as I can drive an electric car 'exactly' as I do an internal combustion engined car for same cost I'll switch but I'm NOT going to switch because it's politically correct. EV needs to prove itself superior in a practical sense and it hasn't.

[joeblack5]

$$ nuclear/ kwh ..$0.30-0.35/ kwh
$$ solar/ kwh. $0.06-$0.10/kwh

Simple as that.

I am sure that all the ev naysayers here are outside the average us mileage consumers of 50 miles per day otherwise they are a thief of their wallet..

Of course at 100 miles range and 25 kwh battery you could charge out of an ordinary 240 outlet at home overnight, no public charger needed.
Our car charges out of a normal 120 vac outlet overnight.

For the average us citizen ev is way superior then ice cars in every aspect and it shows in the sales numbers.

Nobody forces anybody to change to an ev.. only your wallet tells the story...but then people like to spend $40k on a kitchen remodel and not on a solar system..free country, up to you to choose if you are a slave or not.

Mother earth has given all her inhabitants an inheritance burried in the earth.
There are people who want to enjoy that today and do not give a **** about anybody else and there are people who would like to invest that in a better long term future and indepence for many generations to come.

That long term future means freedom, has little to do with convenience. Ukrainians can tell you all about freedom and convenience.
Without oil / energy dependence many wars would not have been fought and there could have been less suffering.

It is for good reason that the dod names global warming a national security concern..


Johan

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

$$ nuclear/ kwh ..$0.30-0.35/ kwh
$$ solar/ kwh. $0.06-$0.10/kwh

Simple as that.

I am sure that all the ev naysayers here are outside the average us mileage consumers of 50 miles per day otherwise they are a thief of their wallet..

Of course at 100 miles range and 25 kwh battery you could charge out of an ordinary 240 outlet at home overnight, no public charger needed.
Our car charges out of a normal 120 vac outlet overnight.

For the average us citizen ev is way superior then ice cars in every aspect and it shows in the sales numbers.

Nobody forces anybody to change to an ev.. only your wallet tells the story...but then people like to spend $40k on a kitchen remodel and not on a solar system..free country, up to you to choose if you are a slave or not.

Mother earth has given all her inhabitants an inheritance burried in the earth.
There are people who want to enjoy that today and do not give a **** about anybody else and there are people who would like to invest that in a better long term future and indepence for many generations to come.

That long term future means freedom, has little to do with convenience. Ukrainians can tell you all about freedom and convenience.
Without oil / energy dependence many wars would not have been fought and there could have been less suffering.

It is for good reason that the dod names global warming a national security concern..


Johan

That's right.
All that.